Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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How many times have you read your book before publication?
The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "Well, I must say, with the glaring error in the title of this thread, I don't think much of folks' proofreading skills..."Hahaha! Until recently I was a sub-editor with a regional newspaper, so proofreading was my job. But everyone makes mistakes, especially when reading their own work. I left my first draft three months before reading it for the second time, and have read it/revised it a few times since then. I can't afford an editor at the moment, so am publishing it without. No doubt people will find mistakes. Nobody's perfict! (sic)
Pam wrote: "The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "Well, I must say, with the glaring error in the title of this thread, I don't think much of folks' proofreading skills..."Hahaha! Until recently I was a sub-ed..."
At least have a friend read it before you publish. If you have no friends who can spell and punctuate, join a writing workshop (peer-to-peer) that specializes in your genre and trade edits with other members. You can even join an online one if you don't have one locally (check your library).
Yes, a professional editor is best, but like you say, sometimes you just can't afford one, so this is a decent option. And most workshops don't charge a lot for membership (often just enough to keep things running in the background).
I have read through my book almost hundred times, and even more on certain sections and paragraphs.My way of getting to the point where ‘enough was enough’, was to send it to two work colleagues asking them for a technical review, and also pre-publish it on Amazon with a release date three weeks after.
However, as being a non-native English speaker and writer, I have engaged a copy-editor to review and correct gramma and punctuations.
Bjorn wrote: "I have read through my book almost hundred times, and even more on certain sections and paragraphs.My way of getting to the point where ‘enough was enough’, was to send it to two work colleagues ..."
Excellent idea! I've edited books by non-English speakers and the number of changes are usually fairly extensive. Still I'm often amazed at how well these folks do. My command of even German (got lousy grades) is pathetic by comparison. I'm in awe of any non-native who can learn English (a difficult language at best).
If it's been a while since I've read the books, going back and reading them again is really interesting. I spot parts that I would write differently now, but there are also times when I'm really proud of a particular passage or dialogue exchange. Waiting a little while helps provide some distance, and that way I can read it like a reader instead of a writer focusing on what to edit.
I read it at least 4 or 5 times before I hand it over for proofreading and input. Then I read at least 1-2 more times to make sure I'm happy with the results. I also like to mention that after reading it each time, I will leave it for about a month or so, then go back, that way my mind is fresh. And like most writers here, I can't afford a professional editor. But the proofreader I have is very good and free.If I can read it through without wanting to change something major, or not spot yet again another misspelled word, then I'm ready for publication. Like has be stated, if I go back and read my old ones, I KNOW there are sentences or scenes I would change; but I must now read them as a reader.
N. Where N tends towards infinity.I'm usually thoroughly sick of a child before I deem it adult enough to sent it out to Kindle to fend for itself
I love writing, too, Tim. You get to create worlds that don't exist. I get to take, not only, the readers, but myself on exciting journeys you would never experience in real life...
I do a few chapters at a time. I'm 34 chapters in and I still havent read all of them in one sitting. But Ive probably read each chapter at least 3-4 times as I go along. Once its complete I will re-read it start to finish at least 2-3 times before giving to an editor. I have 15 beta-readers going chapter by chapter with me as well. So does that count as 18-19 times total ? lol
It took 14 months of writing, proofreading, rewriting, having my four adult children proofread a draft and rewriting again to produce a completed, polished manuscript. An additional 2 months were spent working with and learning from the copy editor, conceptual editor and layout design artist who helped to convert the manuscript into a commercially viable book. All that time and effort proved to be well worthwhile.
Too numerous to count--during the writing phase I always do backtrack reading to pick up the mood and pace. Then it's a careful editing of a chapter before I write the next. Afterward, I'd read the novel in entirety several times before submitting it, then three more times after that.
312! Well, that's what it feels like anyway after many edits.
I have a couple of proof readers scour my pages too (as my own eyes know what I intended to write).
:)
Agree, and that's what it is, our imperfect best:)I like your name--Fusty:)
I'm not sure when it comes to my books already published but when it comes to the book I'm currently writing, oh dear god! I've gone over each poem a good amount of times so far, I'd say three or four times and I'll probably go over it a few more times until I've read it a dozen times.In my defense, each time I read it I do for a certain reason. One time will be t check for spelling mistakes, the next for punctuation, to make sure each line makes sense and runs smoothly, to make sure certain words aren't repeated, etc.
Needless to say, I go over my book thoroughly to make sure it's just right because I'm sure we all know that sometimes we publish our books and we are so excited and only when we get that first review where someone points out a mistake or how we missed something that we say to ourselves, "Damnit! I thought it was perfect, I could have sworn it was ready for publication".
That's why God made editors, especially copy editors.The problem is that you look at something so many times that the errors "seem right" and you fly right over them. Editors are supposed to catch that and it's easier because they aren't overly familiar with the ms.
I learned this when I was a computer programmer (before I retired from that and became an editor). I would look at a malfunctioning program until I my eyes started to cross. If I called in a colleague, s/he'd usually find it within a couple of minutes if not faster.
Before I published my novella, I think I went over it at least 10 different times. And, when I thought I was done, Microsoft word wouldn't let me just change the dimensions of the file for paperback. So.... I had to retype the entire book in the small dimensions.
Something's wrong with your version of Word. I've never had problems reformatting a document or ms. But then I'm using an older version (Word 2000).
Al, you said it. You can look at your own work a thousand times and it will look right because we are blind to our own writing errors.
Even though I'm an editor, when I write my own stuff (under another name), I get someone else to edit it for me.No matter how many times I "edit" my ms, another editor always finds several errors.
Although I don't edit my books alone, (I'm an editor, too), I know if I go back to read one of my published books, there will be at least one error, or I'll see something I want to add to or change. Your work is never perfect.
Al "Tank" wrote: "That's why God made editors, especially copy editors.The problem is that you look at something so many times that the errors "seem right" and you fly right over them. Editors are supposed to catc..."
After several readings, we are blind to our writing errors. That is true.
As a retired sub editor, I more or less edit my own. I think. Then my own subbie points out all the crud.Then I leave it alone for a month and read it again.
Then I think about publishing
More then I like to admit, but it is kind of mandatory now to make sure I get any last revisions done before the publication of it.
Lost count, don't even want to think about it!!! But then I edited my own work (yes, I am officially a lunatic...)
There has been plenty of times when I thought that I was error free after reviewing my books. Giving myself space from my writing is when I begin to see it for what it is. I am learning to write, edit, let it be, do a victory dance because it is complete, wait until the book is out of my head, and then go back with open eyes to see/ears to hear - all that I didn't catch.
Patrena wrote: "There has been plenty of times when I thought that I was error free after reviewing my books. Giving myself space from my writing is when I begin to see it for what it is. I am learning to write, e..." Yes, you can actually learn to love the editing process... I try to think of it as sculpting - you wouldn't expect to get a perfect statue out of your marble block at the first attempt would you?
Damien wrote: "Patrena wrote: "There has been plenty of times when I thought that I was error free after reviewing my books. Giving myself space from my writing is when I begin to see it for what it is. I am lear..." Damien, that marble block that you speak of is very thick. As a writer we get so full of ourselves and the story that we are selling to the readers. I get it - as a writer we create to convince the reader to believe what we write; however I'm learning that editing is a small light that's surrounded by darkness cluttering its view.
Oh boy. Probably a dozen, altogether. Then I read it again after publication, found some typos and fixed those.
Errors will always creep into a book. I've yet to read a book, even those published by the big NY houses, that doesn't have an error or two in it. The only books I've ever read that are, grammatically, error-free are versions of the Bible, since most Bible publishers edit them several times, using teams of editors, before publishing and keep improving them until they're perfect. When you sell millions of copies of a book, you can afford that process. The fiction industry can't.
Ruth wrote: "I lost count of how many times I read my book before I self published. I'm a perfectionist and I edited and re-edited and I'm happy to say there is not one typo in my book.It's whatever you are ha..."
Haha, I'm the same way, Ruth. I probably read my book over 27 times before I self-published, but I also had an editor, and seven well-educated beta readers, and I still have one error that I'm aware of in the book. It seems that everyone I ask after they read it never noticed it, so that is good. Also, I have read plenty of books of top bestseller well-known writers of fiction who are published with the big houses and they have errors. Books on how to write and even grammar have errors (at least one or two). So, life is not perfect and as much as we try to be--someone will always find fault because of their disappointment in themselves.
I'm Josh I'm currently working on my first book! I'm new here so add me please:)
Gippy wrote: "...but never thought it was called a review to have just nine words. Nor did the reviewer really offer anything in a helpful way--like what needs editing exactly. "You don't seem to understand that reviews are reader opinions. They are not author feedback, nor are they intended to be "helpful" to the author. Reviewers don't have to meet any author requirements to leave a review and it always rings my alarm bells when SPAs start complaining about the content of reviews. Typos can be overlooked and sometimes author's can introduce errors accidentally. It is rather arrogant to assume your novel is 100% error free and that the reviewer is wrong.
If reviews bother you so much I would suggest you don't read them. Perhaps you should concentrate on selling more books, which would result in a range of organic reviews.
A.W. wrote: "Typos can be overlooked and sometimes author's can introduce errors accidentally."*chuckle* I see what you did there. Nice!
In this case I think the saying "Too much is never enough" is a good thing and works here.
Gippy wrote: "It's just amazing how I'm being hung out to dry because I didn't understand that type of review.."You solicited friends and family to leave you gushing 5-star reviews on your book and then complain on a public forum about the one genuine review your book receives. You weren't "hung out to dry", we pointed out reviews are for readers, not to stroke your ego. If you are so delicate that you cannot handle genuine reviews, or comments pointing out that reviews aren't author feedback, then perhaps you need to reconsider your decision to publish? If you ever sell books, you will see a range of organic reviews. From your responses here, you seem to have difficulty separating yourself from your product.
I'm just wondering how many times you read your book before the book published. I've got good and bad reviews for one of my books. Even a bad review if it is constructive can help us to fix it and rewrite your book. Readers are finally those who say whether they like it or not our book.
Gippy wrote: "The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "Since you are apparently so familiar with Amazon's requirements for reviews, perhaps you ought to recall this bit: For the same reason, family members or close..."
Gippy,
The following is provided in response to your admission to being a novice writer, unfamiliar with the role consumer ratings and reviews play and obvious discomfort with some of the responses to your posts.
As already pointed out quite correctly, a consumer review is posted by readers merely to share their personal, and therefore subjective, opinion of a book with other readers. It is not a personal message or critique of a book directed toward the author.
A Federal Trade Commission (FTC) regulation requires that any consumer review solicited and compensated for in some manner - money, a free book, review swap, etc - include a disclaimer stating so. Unfortunately, many do not comply.
You have taken personal offense by statements posted by two Goodreads members in particular: The Just About Average Ms. M and A.W.. I am quite familiar with contributions posted by both in previous discussion threads. Please be assured that, based upon past interaction, I have found both to be very knowledgeable and interesting contributors. Ms. M's reviews are always technically well written, concise and informative. A.W. is one of the most experienced and commercially successful authors within the Goodreads community. I don't always agree with their opinions, but I do respect and appreciate them. As a self-professed novice writer, it would benefit you greatly to pay attention to what they have to say and heed their advice. It is important that you understand that such opinions, suggestions and constructive criticism are intended to help you. Do not take them personally.
I wish you future success in your writing.
Gippy wrote: "...not to be brutally attacked by a career reviewer"*yikes* Nobody has bullied you nor have you been brutally attacked. Your posts do show a complete over reaction to anything you perceive as being even mildly critical and you display an inability to seperate yourself from your book.
Some readers label such authors as "special snowflakes" and their books are to be avoided for exactly the unprofessional over reactive behaviour you have shown in this thread. Readers wont bother picking up a book if the author is known to have meltdowns over anything less than a 5-star review. This happens when such authors have friends and family blowing smoke up their behinds and they never received any true, genuine feedback on their novel.
I recommend you take a step back. Perhaps even find some critique partners and workshop your novel and learn how to give and receive criticism. I can only re-iterate that reviews are not for you, they are reader opinions. Until you can either stop reading them or see them as product reviews, you really shouldn't publish anything.
And breathe everybody.Nobody is going to agree here. Maybe good to just let it drop.
And before anybody asks I'm on neither side of the fence...
Reviews are a reality when you publish anything on a public domain. Good, bad or ugly you have to take them with a grain of salt. I have only contacted one reviewer (an author on here) to explain why my book had some grammar errors. When we did an update, we uploaded the pre-proofread copy and I felt bad that he had received that copy. 3 stars isn't a bad review.
I got a review the other day that said "OK ideas would do other things" then it went on over two paragraphs about how to vote their review up and how they received it for free to review. I didn't give it to them free for a review, it was just on free promo.
It is what it is. Live and learn!
Nicely said, Ben and Jane.
I have a rule. Read five times before you even consider releasing your book. This has developed over the years due to wanting to get the book out asap.These days I'm more chilled about editing and publishing.
I agree, Catherine. 3 should be the 'at least' minimum. And if you can read through your work without constant major changes, then it's time to hand it over to the proofreaders.
My rule is 5 times, for books and blog posts... even then I make mistakes!
Like the title of this thread (How many times have your read yours book... :) there comes a time when I have to stop proofreading. I no longer see the typos.
My pattern is always the same. Write it. Let it sit a while. Read and edit it. Then let a trusted friend serve as a "pseudo-editor" by reading and commenting on it. Read through it again considering their comments and proposed edits. Let it sit again. Read and edit. Repeat last two steps until fully satisfied.
I'm about to get published next year March and I'm still, like very skeptic of my narrative, re reading it. It's funny cuz I'm still really scared of what the outcome when readers give reviews. Because everytime I read my manuscript, the more I feel awkward about it. First time jitters maybe?????
At least 3 times in its entirety, but I read bits that i'm not confident about several times and fix anything that needs fixing.
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