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Villette
Brontë Sisters Collection
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Villette - Chapters 9-15
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In the current political climate, the comments about the officer's "small hands" were probably funnier than they were supposed to be. But he was clearly considered by the author and by Lucie and John as not manly enough.
Lucie finally showed some wit with Dr. John in the dialogue about being gentle with Ginevra, and then her turning the tables and saying he should be gentler with such a defenseless character as the officer (forgot his name and too lazy to look it up).
The Catholic vs Protestant division is a pretty common theme for British Victorian authors.
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I thought it was funny and clever of Charlotte to write in the scene where she points out that since Dr John likes Ginerva for physical characteristics, why should one not admire his competitor for the same. You can almost feel Charlotte's ire and intelligence coming through in the many times when she must have felt small and mousey and overlooked.Also, how she accepts that she has not been nor ever will be loved. Almost broke my heart to think of Charlotte writing and believing that for herself. How much M. Heger must have meant to her!
The interaction between Lucy and M Paul is interesting and I am watching how this develops. I believe he is M. Heger's literary counterpart.
The brush with Catholicism was most interesting. Supposedly part of her break down. Lucy is a woman uncomforted, hedged in all sides, limited and alone; no wonder she is exhibiting nervous symptoms. The chat with the Catholic priest was the first most warm human connection she had had in a long time. A person who was genuinely interested in her and listened. Don't we all need that? I am glad that she asked God to bless the good man.
I don't know if others are into the meaning of names but Lucy means "light" and Ginerva is a form of Guinevere which means "white enchantress"
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Mme Beck's philosophy of education--the young ladies mustn't tax their brains; the teachers must not show any signs of weakness
Mme's parenting style: nonexistent; her oldest daughter is a real terror and Mme again shows her sneaky ways.
As for Miss Ginevra--shallow, shallow and totally selfcentred; and who is her poor Isidore? Could it be Dr. John? He is certainly a more sympathetic character than all the rest.
I am finding the writing style a liitle overblown and wordy, but I like this little snippet from the second last page of chapter 10:
He laid himself open to my observation, according to my presence in the room just that degree of notice and consequence a person of my exterior habitually expects: that is to say,about what is given to unobtrusive articles of furniture, chairs of ordinary joiner's work, and carpets of no striking pattern.
Again, Lucy is cold and just an observer.Now that she has a secure position, the snow has not melted yet.
But I think the snow is melting inwardly even if Lucy gives no outward sign of it - and not just in her awareness of Dr John.Chapter 12 was interesting: Lucy gives a long account of the legend of the nun, which seems to fascinate her even though she then dismisses it as "romantic rubbish." And the description of the old garden she frequents is full of the language of love ("one kiss of the evening breeze... clusters in loving profusion about the favoured spot where jasmine and ivy met and married them.")
Lucy loves little Georgette, the sick child: to carry her is a treat, (chapter 13) and when she nestles into Lucy's arms it fills her with "a tender pain. Feeling of no kind abounded in that house; this pure little drop from a pure little source was too sweet..." But it is the only source of affection she has. No wonder (as Tracey pointed out) she is so susceptible to the interest and concern of the priest.
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but how many people ever do love, or at least marry for love in this world?1
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She must really be anti-Catholic because she makes so many negative comments about the church. If she had been more open-minded the church may have brought some solace to her.
The section where she is locked in the attic to rehearse and the ensuing play are the highlights of part one, even though it is highly unlikely that anyone would actually as M. Paul did(locking her in),
My heart goes out to her after that horrible long period alone, but it is hard to warm up to her. I know she is in a difficult situation, but some of it is her own doing. She prides herself on being "an observer of life". When is she going to wake up and reach out to people?
Rosemarie, I believe Lucy is afraid to reach out to others believing that she is not worthy of their attention/love.And I agree, Charlotte's anti-Catholic attitude is harsh. But then her father is a Protestant preacher and from what I read about Charlotte's life, he was quite severe. Is it her attitude or his that he has taught and expected of his children? Charlotte sought her father's approval all her life and only in her published works did she feel his approval.
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So what exactly did that note say in the part that wasn't translated? I remember enough college French to decipher or at least get the gist of most of the French in the book, but the comment about Lucy was beyond me.
Those interested in the Bronte's anti-catholicism may like to read from page 13 of this thesis on the effect of the controversies surrounding The Oxford Movement and a resurgence in catholicism upon Evangelical Anglicans such as the Brontes. Of Villette the author says: 'The Catholic Hierarchy had been restored in Britain in September 1850, so that when Charlotte Bronte came to write Villette in 1851, the mood of antagonism was at its height. As Marion J. Phillips makes clear, her attack upon Roman Catholic clergy is often even more virulent because she believed that the Roman Catholic Church deliberately incorporated in its powerful institution a definition of priesthood, which, from her strong Protestant standpoint constituted extreme abuse of it.'This is the link to the PDF on
The Religious Beliefs Of Charlotte Bronte As Reflected In Her Novels And Letters
oro.open.ac.uk › pdf20
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A veritable British hypocrite,from what you say, a sort of monster, rough and harsh, like an old corporal of grenadiers, and sour as a nun.
The copy I am reading is the Signet Classic paperback(from the library). Since I speak French I at first didn't realize the notes were there. If you need any more translations just let me know.
Thanks, Rosemarie.
Casceil, my copy is the Oxford World Classics and the translation in it says: a real British prude from what you say, a kind of monster, as abrupt and harsh as an old grenadier corporal, and as cross-grained as a nun.Harsh words indeed!
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I like the way Lucie is portrayed as a mixture of vulnerability and cold and arrogant. Bronte's last novel was for me a great read. I think the Doctor is a bit shallow and stupid to fall for Ginerva.
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Do you think men and women write differently about men falling for beautiful but otherwise unworthy women?
Frances, that's a really interesting question. A parallel question would be whether men and women write differently about women who fall for an attractive but otherwise unworthy man. I suspect the answer to both questions is yet, but I would have to think through some examples.
As for the enjoyment level so far, I sympathize with Lori's sentiments. I can hardly believe that this author is the same person who wrote Jane Eyre. Lucy is critical of everything around her, as if she is looking for things to criticize, but in a way that isn't edifying. And given that Lucy's observations nearly always seem to have a moral application, I was somewhat puzzled at the part where she finds Madame going through her belongings. Her reaction is completely fascinating. She appears unmoved and almost tolerant of something I would think would be an issue of principle. It's odd.
So far we’ve seen Lucy isolated and far from home, in a different country among people who speak a different language. Her isolation is further emphasized by Brönte showing a fundamental difference in values and behaviour between her and the other characters. So why does Lucy make a compromise in this case with regard to her own moral expectations?
She also compromises for the play, unbending enough to participate, but still keeping a feigned displeasure at its low moral standard.
I wonder if there is a reason for this inconsistent behaviour or simply poor development by the author. Is there something I'm not seeing?
As for the Catholic-Protestant component, it's interesting that she felt the need of a confessor. Afterward, she still rejects the Catholic church, but appears to accept the Father. This might be the first show of empathy and a development of her character that I've seen yet. Although with the apparent inconsistencies so far, I'm not sure I hold much hope ......
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Rosemarie, I know exactly what you mean. I'm trying to find something likeable about her character, or at the very least, something about her character that illuminates something else. So far, I'm failing. I can't invest in Dr. John's attraction to Ginerva because it feels undeveloped. I somewhat like M. Paul and I liked the priest. I guess I will keep plugging along and hope that something comes together that can make me at least appreciate this novel.
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Deborah wrote: "I read it several months ago with another group. It's refreshing to see these posts as I had the same reaction and thought I had missed something."Oh, dear, that doesn't bode well.
Finally got to the end of this section. I am disappointed in "Villette" so far. Still not making any connection with the characters, and feel as though I must be missing key points made in French (thanks for the translation of the note, Rosemarie). I'm a bit confused about Lucy's depression. I realize that depression in real life is often medical - a chemical imbalance - but usually in fiction it's a result of circumstance. What does Lucy have to be depressed about? Her lot isn't all that different than that of many others, and better than some. She has her health, a good mind, a safe place to live, and meaningful work.
What is it that Lucy, a protestant, feels so guilty about that she needs to confess to a Catholic priest? The priest seems shocked - or at least taken aback - by what Lucy has to say. Did I miss something?
I'd like to think she was feeling guilty about her characterization of "the cretin" but I know better. The way Lucy talked about that child broke my heart. The way people with disabilities were treated in the past is appalling -- and this girl probably had it pretty good in comparison.
Dr. John is a smitten fool, and Ginevra is a little ... well, choose your own word here. I have no patience for either of them. Any man who falls in love with a woman like that deserves everything he gets.
Like Cleo, I will keep plugging along, and hope that something happens to make me care very soon!
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Oh, dear, that doesn't bode well."
Not necessarily. I definitely could have missed sonething
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Just a quick note re depression. Bronte was fighting depression while writing this book. She had lost her siblings.
Deborah wrote: "Just a quick note re depression. Bronte was fighting depression while writing this book. She had lost her siblings. ..."Ah thanks, Deborah, that's very helpful. It might give an explanation as to the quick flights from one situation to another, one state of mind to another ....??
Casceil wrote: " I was somewhat puzzled at the part where she finds Madame going through her belongings. Her reaction is completely fascinating. She appears unmoved and almost tolerant of something I would think would be an issue of principle. It's odd. ..."I wonder if Lucy's reaction (or lack of it) is simply another symptom of her depression. She feels unconnected to the world she's in and places little value on any of her belongings. She observes Mme Beck with detachment, like an outsider, because she feels herself to be one.
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Yes this book is very much about Charlotte's experiences after lost her siblings all in quick succession. Detachment and a sense of coldness towards others are classical symptoms of depression.
I enjoyed the book I believe because I have suffered depression and as such can relate to Lucy. Charlotte's descriptive writing about these feelings speak to me and sustain me.
I am listening to Villette and am interrupted enough that I am not following it closely. However, I came to it with the understanding that important critics consider it a greater masterpiece than Jane Eyre. Since I have never been a particular fan of JE (I have a distrust of "tall, dark, handsome, but deceptive," even if tamed -- which for me is too much of a central message of JE, besides the one of her admirable self protection), I've been curious enough to try to use the reading here as enough of an incentive to tackle Villette. After reading the comments here, when any of you are ready for them, I'll suggest looking at the quotations from the likes of Virginia Woolf and George Eliot and testing them against the reactions expressed here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villett... "Critical Reception"
Claire Fallon's (The Huffington Post ) comment suggests the ending may be necessary for a fair critical assessment. You may prefer to wait until you have completed Villette to read her comments, but I believe they are worth considering, even if you choose to strongly disagree:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04...
Finally, for an out-and-out ode to this book, see:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo...
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Rosemarie wrote: "...She heaps praise on people who are not worthy...."Is that consistent with her background as impoverished English Protestant girl, perhaps admonished as a child to think well of others and without the experience and sophistication to make distinctions?
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Lucy gushes? Could someone give me an example?
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There are definitely two Lucy Snowes.
Rosemarie wrote: "There are definitely two Lucy Snowes...."I agree, and I think she spells this out herself in chapter 12:
"Oh, my childhood! I had feelings: passive as I lived, little as I spoke, cold as I looked, when I thought of past days, I could feel... in catalepsy and a dead trance, I held the quick of my nature."
The thunderstorm that follows fills her with delight and longing which she has to "knock on the head." She's maintaining a continuous self-imposed repression which sometimes makes her struggle.
I can't help feeling that her childhood is meant to hold the key to Lucy's personality: so it's frustrating that we're not being told exactly what happened to her.
I have just finished these chapters (finally) and am also a little hesitant with my appreciation for the book. However, from reading your comments it will be better.Ginevra reminds me of Cynthia in Gaskell's Wives and Daughters. She is coquettish, playful and does not really care about other people's feelings which can be seen e.g. in the way she talks about Isidore/ Dr. John and his gifts.
Lucy is somehow a mystery to me, but your explanations for her having serious depressions make me think differently about her. At least I believe that being cold and distanced makes it easier for her being in general alone and maybe having lost all the ones that were close to her. I did like her affection for little Georgette, but was also surprised about her attitude towards the little mentally impaired child.
Oh, one more thing, did I understand this correctly that the priest considered her more fitting for the Catholic Church than the "cold" Protestant church and she did not visit him again probably out of fear of getting converted and ending up in a convent?
Hedi, I think that is a reasonable interpretation of what the priest told her. As for why she did not go to visit him again, I just assumed she felt no need to.
Hedi, I thought that the priest/confession thing was an odd bit to throw in, especially since it doesn't seem to tie to anything. I'm going to have to re-visit it mentally when it's all over to see if it's a separate judgement of Brönte's or it connects with the rest of the story.
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Rosemarie wrote: "Lucie was so alone in the world that the priest may have been the only person she could turn to. She was also very British and Protestant, so this "confession" shows just how abandoned and desolate..."It also lends a particular societal timelessness to the story, although I suspect that was not intentional. Catholic priests have been available to take confessions for a very, very long time. (Anyone see the awful (IMHO) recent movie Hail, Ceasar!? It satirizes this priestly role.)
We have seen a variety of schools in our adventures in Victorian literature. What is your impression of the Pensionnat de Demoiselles? What is Lucy's role in the life of the school? Is she an active participant, or an observant bystander? What do you make of her relationship with Ginevra Fanshawe? With Dr John?
Our final chapter is a strange one-the excitement of the examinations, the sudden descent of solitude, the illness, the brush with Catholicism and the final swoon. What do you think the author is trying to convey? Discuss any parallels you see either with other Bronte novels (always being careful with spoilers for those who may not have read them) or with the author's own life.
Finally and as always, feel free to post your own impressions of this section and use the above as conversation starters as required.