Resources for reading Plato

[Phillip]

The Meno certainly is a critical dialogue and being rather on the shorter side, can be digested in one sitting as it were.... If the idea is simply to get a good taste of Plato, Meno makes sense & also due to its posiiton between Theaeterus and Sophist, two extremely critical dialogues, the 1st on Knowledge; the 2nd seemingly on sophistry but actually on enlightenment!

Now if the idea is to actually understand the whole of the Platonic corpus, reading Phaedrus is (to my mind) the best approach. Of course understanding the entire corpus is no easy task, I think that if anyone has managed to do so in the last 200 years, Schleiermacher is the one. I might add that translating the dialogues is a much more intense way of working with them than merely reading them....

[Phillip]

We all can opine and to do so wisely one should listen in to other views,,,, consider what Plato has Socrates say to Phaedrus near the very end of Phaedrus:

Phae: Say what?
Socr: That whenever, be it now with Lysias or with anyone else, something has been written or will yet be written and be it in relation to some particular area of concern or in regard to the public weal as a whole – in that, perhaps, advice regarding the Laws might be brought forward, that, thus, legislative bills for a Republic are being drawn up in the opinion that there would be great thoroughness regarding fundamental issues and that also there would be great clarity in the document, all of this exposes the author to excoriation – whether or not, now, anyone actually comes forward with such. For not to be capable of differentiating between day and night in relation to righteousness and injustice, evil and good, that is – in all actuality and undeniably – most execrable, and no matter if all the people praise it. [277e3]
Phae: Certainly.

Per Schleiermacher, who spent many years transating most all of Plato's dialogues, Pheadrus HAS TO BE First, as it sets the tone for everything that follows, Love at the beginning - Socrates' love of educating the youth, Phaedrus- and Love at the end > Diotima's educating Socrates about love of the divine....

I'm not saying that Meno isn't a very important dialogue! - why else would it come In-Between Knowledge (Theaetetus) and Enlightenment (Sophist... in which of course the enlightenment is hidden from those who have no eyes to see.... as if it were merely about a fishing expedition....);

I have yet to find any translation of Plato that comes close to the German one....and I've studied quite a few.

p,

[Thomas]

Patrice wrote: "the meno can be read in one sitting but it cannot be understood in one sitting. my class spent eleven weeks on it and could have spent more. it changed my life. gave me courage to question. i belie..."

I agree, Patrice. Meno is read first at SJC because it's a focused example of the aporetic dialogue and Socrates' dialectical method. At one time I think Lysis was first, but Meno is quite a bit richer and introduces the "hermeneutic circle" problem that persists through Western philosophy --in fact, we just touched on it in the Nietzsche discussion. And it's a little gem all on its own. A perfect way to start.

[Phillip]

My goodness, Plato taught the Meno first, or SJC... and then what was 2nd and 3rd and 4th?.....and Why?

Which dialogues end in aporia and which ones have endings that don't leave one in a conundrum; it's not as if dialectic isn't present in practically all of Plato's dialogues.

To me a BIG problem with the way Plato is taught, whether at SJC or at the New School >> One always spends an entire semester studying this dialogue or that one, be it Meno or Lysis or Parmenides (now that's a killer of a dialogue!) ---- and One NEVER gets to an understanding of the w h o l e ....

what one calls f r a g m e n t a t i o n .... sound familiar.

p.

[Phillip]

Well, on the one hand I don't deny that some people are further along on the path than others, that the road to truth is quite a long trek.... so one gets

closer and closer and.... finally: LIGHT - the 7th letter or outside of the cave, or Diotima's lesson -

and it's only with Independent thought that one gets there (total devotion to some guru or other is bound to be very dangerous,
one must take care of oneself...)

But it's not just Plato who talks of the road to Larissa, and
thus one needs Plato as well as others as well as independent
thought - - - but I would say that one has to have confidence that
the road actually gets one to some place vastly different from the here and now of relative truth.... otherwise it seems somewhat pointless, or? What do you think?

[Lia]

I’m curious how many of you think the 7th letter is authentic. What’s SJC’s “stance” on this? (Assuming they have one.)

[Phillip]

Not to be rude but it's not all that important, what's in the 7th letter can also be found elsewhere in Plato EXCEPT for the statement that Plato admits/says that "the Light" cannot be adequately explained, one must experience it.... It seems to me that someone "making up" this letter wouldn't make that much sense.... not, as I say, that it matters all that much.
What is much more important is whether Plato is taken seriously on the whole - - and where one is to find such a deeper understanding that can truly give one confidence that one understands the dialogues in relation one to the other.... for if there is no real understanding of the ordering of the dialogues, how can there be understanding of Plato's philosophy?

[Phillip]

The ordering of the dialogues on SJC's website is, I'd say: a bit strange:

"Meno, Gorgias, Republic, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Symposium,
Parmenides, Theaetetus, Sophist, Timaeus, Phaedrus"....

Schleiermacher's ordering is on my Contact page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~ushaphil/i...
at the bottom - in color!

[Lia]

I guess I don’t value “confidence” in “my understanding” as much as I value a conversation over texts we as a community have read.

Especially since I keep changing my mind about how to read Plato, or what Plato is “really” saying, or whether Plato is worthy (to me). To have high confidence or justifiction for any instance or my reading of Plato is *quite* beyond me at this point (and possibly forever). It’s the best I can do to learn to live with uncertainty and constant change.

So, anyone else? What’s your thoughts on the authenticity of the 7th letter?

[Thomas]

Lia wrote: What’s SJC’s “stance” on this? (Assuming they have one.)"

I don't think the letter has ever been on the reading list, not due to authenticity questions, but because it pales in comparison to the major dialogues that are on the list. I can honestly say that the name "Schleiermacher" was never uttered in any seminar that I attended, and the order of the dialogues was never an issue of any importance. I think these are academic quibbles more suited for post-graduate classics study. For me, thinking about how Plato fits into the overall scheme of Western thought is a more compelling and constructive exercise.

[Thomas]

Lia wrote: "I guess I don’t value “confidence” in “my understanding” as much as I value a conversation over texts we as a community have read.

Brava!!

[Thomas]

Phillip wrote: ""Hope you don't find my conversation to be offensive, just blowing off a bit of steam....
."

That's fine, Phillip. I stated my opinion and you stated yours. Please keep in mind that this is a background thread for a discussion that was last active four years ago. You're more than welcome to add your thoughts to the main discussion threads. You may find them interesting.