The Pickwick Club discussion
Hard Times
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Part I Chapters 15-16
Kim wrote: "Here's the web site, feel free to check it out yourselves. ;-)"I'm afraid to look for fear of the pop-up ads that will inevitably follow! My husband will wonder what I'm up to when I'm sitting in my little office!
Well, Mary Lou, I didn't see any pop-up ads, though I'm not the most observant. Certainly their advertising is pretty much on a par with many other 'good-time' hotels. In the list of 'rules' we have the requirement that clients wear shorts at meals. When I read this I knew that the main target group is the US market. We Brits/Irish don't possess shorts. We'd have to be massochists; check our weather reports!:D. I'm afraid that the name 'Hedonism II' would conjure up different types of 'rules' in the British/Irish mind. Wearing shorts at meals is pretty small-fry. I hasten to add that I
do not pretend to represent all of the Brits and the Irish. I am one person who is merely expressing an opinion!
This being said, I have no intention of reaping the benefits of Hedonism II, XXV, CXIII or MIV any time soon; a trip to Legoland with a cream tea afterwards is about as much as I can handle. But for anyone who's interested, fill your boots and don't forget to send a postcard home. :-p
I can't decide who's worse, Gradgrind or Bounderby. Through the filter of 2016 Gradgrind is grooming his child for Mr Bounderby. I don't believe for a moment that he thinks of Louisa's well-being. Such a match is in HIS best interests. Bounderby is the cat that got the cream. It is true that the 'deal' that was brokered was not, in those days, illegal, but it ought to have struck both men as unsavoury, at least. Gradgrind worships at the altar of 'Facts.' Facts have served him well. As for Bounderby, I see no evidence of a thinking man. He has succeeded in business by getting the 'right' men behind him; he is, let it be known, (and he DOES let it be known) no longer standing armpit-deep in ditch water. When I imagine him I see a sort of Donald Trump figure, minus the comb-over. Bounderby may have to work on his charisma though. (Did I really say charisma? ... )
Hilary wrote: " Through the filter of 2016 Gradgrind is grooming his child for Mr Bounderby. I don't believe for a moment that he thinks of Louisa's well-being. Such a match is in HIS best interests. "I think that's a bit unfair. Don't most parents even today (and didn't every parent in Dickens's day) "groom" their daughters to make what they consider to be a good marriage? Isn't that what every mother in Jane Austen is about?
I know we disagree about Bounderby, and I don't happen to care for him much as a person, but I do think he cares about Louisa as a person as well as a wife, and I think he will be a good husband to her by the standards of judging a good husband in 1954.
SWell, Everyman, I really don't wish to disagree with you, but my competitive bent is pulling at the reins. This competitive side has lain dormant or rather I have hidden it under pretty silken swatches which
Gosh dernit, it has done it again! This phone is getting worse. Anyhow, where was I?Yes, the pretty colourful swatches serve to hide the competitive side, oh for such a short time. They begin to slip off my lap and all is revealed. :D. I have placed a self-imposed ban on my playing of Monopoly, for example, otherwise the kids have tom
Happened again. No idea what I was going to say ...meh!By joining battle with you, I fear that my exquisite adversarial skills might leave you a quivering wreck on the rocking chair crying "One potato, two potato, three potato four ..." (Or American equivalent).
Through the lens of the present time, neither Gradgrind nor Bounderby is treating Louisa with the respect that is her due. From my 'modern' perspective neither man, her father nor her would-be suitor, is treating her right in the context of the 1800s! I know, I know, that in contrast to many similar relationships at that time, it seems like a bit of a picnic, nevertheless, that doesn't make it right. Even though this is a reread for me none of it is familiar. Perhaps Louisa's life will be a bed of roses; I sincerely hope so.
Ah, Jane Austin and her representation of the Bennett girls and the shocking Mrs Bennett. Her long-suffering Mr Bennett
HUSBAND Mr Bennett. He could see through all the froth and nonsense. And what a price they paid ...It is true that we all want the best for our children, but getting too heavily involved can lead to a backlash that none of us would wish upon our worst enemies. Our Indian friends find our lack of arranged marriages really hilarious. It is true though that the daughter (who seems to be the obvious heir to running the orphanages) has objected to the handsome men who have met with her. Her focus is 100% on the orphanages.
Anyhow, I am tempted to tell a relevant but traumatic story, but I feel that I have rambled on for too long and that there is no need.
Hilary wrote: "By joining battle with you, I fear that my exquisite adversarial skills might leave you a quivering wreck on the rocking chair crying "One potato, two potato, three potato four ...".."Highly likely. But to be reduced to a quivering wreck by such a delightful opponent would in itself be a pleasure.
Hilary wrote: "HUSBAND Mr Bennett. He could see through all the froth and nonsense. And what a price they paid ...."Who paid? Though perhaps this isn't the thread to discuss that, I think the girls each pretty much got what they deserved (except perhaps Mary). And I think Mr and Mrs Bennett enjoyed their little exchanges; he may have seemed to hide in his study behind his desk and paper, but in fact he was quite clued in to his daughters and their characters.
Hilary wrote: "Our Indian friends find our lack of arranged marriages really hilarious.."And our divorce rate suggests that they have a good point. Not that I should complain; I made a quite satisfactory living in the divorce courts, and mostly enjoyed my time there quite a lot, which was probably a result of my being remarkably good at it. It was anything but boring!
As to Mr. Gradgrind and Bounderby, I think that Dickens clearly meant contemporary readers to be disgusted with their marriage schemes for Louisa. A few days ago, I drew the conclusion that this might show that even according to Victorian standards arranged marriages might have been doubtful business.Yet on second thoughts, I'd say that there were arranged marriages, esp. in the higher classes and that a policy of arranged marriages - unless they were too obviously awkward (e.g. by marrying a young woman to a lecher like Bounderby) - could very well coexist with the ideal of romantic love that was fostered in literature. Even the literary ideal of romantic love did not condone with marriages that were morally substandard, i.e. there used to be poetic justice à la "You made your bed, you lie on it".
In other words, a novel like HT would probably not go so far as to negate the legitimacy of parental influence over a young woman's choice in marriage, but it would criticise an excess in influence.
As to the Bennetts: being creations by Jane Austen, I cannot remember them anymore ;-)
And yes, Hilary, I can understand you and your competetiveness: There's hardly anything I'd take as seriously as a game!
Tristram wrote: "As to the Bennetts: being creations by Jane Austen, I cannot remember them anymore ;-)"While I remember, and know, them better than 95% of the people I have met in real life.
Mary Lou wrote: "(And in Louisa's defense, I don't get the impression that her mother has been a good role model when it comes to being warm, loving, and cheerful!) ..."Yes, both Louisa's parents fail to get to know her. But did anyone else get the impression that Mrs. Gradgrind has had a stroke? Her numbness down one side of her body, etc, made me wonder if this might be the source of her ill health.
Everyman wrote: "It was quite a risk to take an ignorant, unteachable, dirty girl of very dubious parentage and of a class of people with highly questionable morals, of unknown health or carrier of diseases, into your home to befriend and closely associate with your young daughter. ..."Substitute "old man" for "girl", and isn't this just what Gradgrind does with Bounderby, encouraging his relationship with his daughter? (The latter brags about his ill health, too, on top of everything else.) Sadly, the only benefit seems to be money.
Hilary wrote: "As for Bounderby, I see no evidence of a thinking man. He has succeeded in business by getting the 'right' men behind him; he is, let it be known, (and he DOES let it be known) no longer standing armpit-deep in ditch water. When I imagine him I see a sort of Donald Trump figure, minus the comb-over. ..."Scarily funny, Hilary :) Yes, what little hair Bounderby has left, is blowing in his own wind... ! (I just noticed that the illustrations Kim provided in the next thread, all show Bounderby with more hair than Dickens gives him -- altering his description of looking older than Gradgrind.)
Vanessa wrote: "Everyman wrote: "It was quite a risk to take an ignorant, unteachable, dirty girl of very dubious parentage and of a class of people with highly questionable morals, of unknown health or carrier of..."That's a very good point, indeed, Vanessa!
Vanessa wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "(And in Louisa's defense, I don't get the impression that her mother has been a good role model when it comes to being warm, loving, and cheerful!) ..."Yes, both Louisa's parents..."
It may be true that Dickens is describing the symptoms of a stroke here and that, like in the case of Uriah Heep, the disease behind the symptoms went unmentioned. I, too, had the impression that Mrs. Gradgrind might not only suffer from bad choice in marriage but also from some physical illness.
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "As to the Bennetts: being creations by Jane Austen, I cannot remember them anymore ;-)"While I remember, and know, them better than 95% of the people I have met in real life."
That would be the case for Dickens's characters with me mostly. In the case of Jane Austen, I really have difficulties keeping the various, though not varying, plots apart. Nevertheless, her irony and her sense of humour is what I best remember about her.
Vanessa wrote: " Sadly, the only benefit seems to be money. "Don't denigrate money, especially in that society for a woman whose future happiness depended on marrying money. No chance to go out and get a job, other than a dismal one as a servant or governess or companion at the beck and call of a master/mistress 24/7 for virtually no money. We today are used to the idea that a woman can go out and support herself, and doesn't need a man to support her. Not so in that day.
And I think it was more than just money. Bounderby and Gradgrind were friends and shared important values, so Gradgrind presumably knew or thought that Louisa would be in friendly hands with compatible values, which I think counts for a lot.
Tristram wrote: "... I, too, had the impression that Mrs. Gradgrind might not only suffer from bad choice in marriage ..."Why do you think she made a bad choice in marriage? She was "raised to high position," and although she is certainly in ill health she doesn't seem at all to have been mistreated by her husband, as far as I can see; in fact he brings Sissy in part to help her, and presumably they have an adequate staff of servants so she doesn't have to do any work herself. Why do you assume this was a bad marriage for her, which assumes that she could have done much better?
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "... I, too, had the impression that Mrs. Gradgrind might not only suffer from bad choice in marriage ..."Why do you think she made a bad choice in marriage? She was "raised to hi..."
I really value you ability to see matters from two sides, Everyman - must be the legal training! You are certainly right in that Mr. Gradgrind is no cruel, maybe not even an egoistic, husband and that his wife could have done worse than become Mrs. Thomas Gradgrind. And yet I have the impression that she is not too happy in her shoes because she clearly feels inferior to her husband and maybe even to her children with regard to knowledge. At any rate, she will not have a very sympathizing husband in Mr. Gradgrind.
When divulging his intentions as to Bounderby to Louisa, Mr. Gradgrind said that he and his wife were united in a similar way, and maybe we can infer from that that neither had their heart in it, and that Mrs. Gradgrind also thought something like, "What does it matter?"
What I want to say by this is that Mr. and Mrs. Gradgrind are not very much in tune with each other, and that this is especially difficult for Mrs. Gradgrind, who has no sphere of action, outside her family, to find fulfilment in.
Everyman wrote: "Why do you think she made a bad choice in marriage? She was "raised to hi..."Everyman, you're determined to accentuate the positive in this marriage - who knew you were such an optimist? ;-) I fully understand your arguments, and you make some good points. Like Gradgrind, you're being "eminently practical". But I wish there could be a little - just a little! - romance for our young female heroines. Louisa and Sissy (where is Sissy, by the way?) have none, and poor Rachael is in love with a man she can't have.
Tristram wrote: And yet I have the impression that she is not too happy in her shoes because she clearly feels inferior to her husband and maybe even to her children with regard to knowledge. ."That's likely. And, I suggest, very natural.
How many non-aristocratic women of that era, particularly women married to men who get into Parliament, weren't inferior to their husbands in terms of knowledge? Boys were educated, girls mostly weren't, especially in the generation before this novel takes place when she was a young girl. And since her husband is associated with a school and has his children attend it, it's not surprising (especially given the teaching style) that she would see that they had more knowledge than she does (how would she define a horse??)
Perhaps that will be a benefit Sissy will bring -- Mrs. Gradgrind can probably feel superior to Sissy in terms of knowledge, especially given how dense about the kind of learning Gradgrind cherishes she is.
Mary Lou wrote: "But I wish there could be a little - just a little! - romance for our young female heroines.."In Coketown? You expect romance in Coketown??? Even if it were there, how could you find it in all the smoke?
Tristram wrote: "What I want to say by this is that Mr. and Mrs. Gradgrind are not very much in tune with each other, and that this is especially difficult for Mrs. Gradgrind, who has no sphere of action, outside her family, to find fulfilment in. "That's a fair comment, but up to now shouldn't the home and child care have been enough by 1850s Coketown standards to satisfy her? What's interesting is what will happen with her now that Tom has moved to the bank and Louisa is married to Bounderby. But of course, now she has Sissy to fill those holes in her life.
Tristram wrote: "It may be true that Dickens is describing the symptoms of a stroke here and that, like in the case of Uriah Heep, the disease behind the symptoms went unmentioned. ..."Yes, I wondered if people had strokes younger in this period (I'm assuming she's about Gradgrind's age). But it does seem a fitting ailment for someone who's head is splitting from facts, and who is buried by them.
Everyman wrote: "Vanessa wrote: " Sadly, the only benefit seems to be money. "Don't denigrate money, especially in that society for a woman whose future happiness depended on marrying money. No chance to go out a..."
Money, of course, is a necessity; however, it's fair to say that it doesn't ensure happiness in marriage. In this era, I wouldn't expect Louisa to go and get a job (although, who knows, maybe Sparsit will give her some ideas!), but I would expect her father, especially since becoming a MP, to widen her society so that she has more matrimonial options. He's in a position to be meeting people. Government, according to Dickens, is full of factual men, and Louisa might make a better match elsewhere. But as Louisa reminds her father when he presents Bounderby's proposal, she hasn't been anywhere or seen anyone. Instead Louisa and Tom view their home as a jail, and Gradgrind barely notices them growing up. Even by Victorian society standards, this appears negligent.
Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: And yet I have the impression that she is not too happy in her shoes because she clearly feels inferior to her husband and maybe even to her children with regard to knowledge. ."T..."
True, Victorians tended to separate the spheres of what was regarded as typical male and typical female so that what women learnt was different from what men learnt. Mr. Gradgrind, however, apparently did not make this distinction with regard to his own children in that he made all his children go through the same catalogue of ologies regardless if they were boys or girls. The fact of having a daughter like Louisa, who is more learned in subjects that were considered typically male, might have added to this feeling of isolation with Mrs. Gradgrind. Apart from that, fine arts, music and related things - things that women learned in those days - do not seem to have any place in the Gradgrind universe so that Mrs. Gradgrind's everyday life is completely empty.
Vanessa wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Vanessa wrote: " Sadly, the only benefit seems to be money. "Don't denigrate money, especially in that society for a woman whose future happiness depended on marrying money. No c..."
That's a good point, Vanessa! Even by Victorian standards, Gradgrind is a very careless father.
Everyman, (6 days ago) you stir the beast of envy or is it covetousness or both? as, no matter how hard I think, think, think I cannot remember 'my having been remarkably good at' anything. Ever.
Ah Tristram, competitiveness: one of society's great evils. I spent too many years denying this trait in my character only to have a mini Dorian Gray experience. Look askance at the one who 'protesteth too much' for the one who says "I am not competitive" might well be the one who revels in devouring his opponents for lunch. Everyman, for example, is out and proud and well should he be. Haha, I love the interplay between you two, Everyman and Tristram, concerning contrasting attitudes towards the Bennetts and non-fictional people. I find that I tend to remember neither, but far prefer the Bennetts.
'blowing in his own wind' ... I like, Vanessa.:)
Hilary wrote: "Ah Tristram, competitiveness: one of society's great evils. I spent too many years denying this trait in my character only to have a mini Dorian Gray experience. Look askance at the one who 'protes..."Competetiveness is one of the springs that keep me going. When I was a teenager and Trivial Pursuit was en vogue, I actually started learning the answers to the questions by heart. Well, not really all of them, but a good bunch of them, and then I strategically divided them in the two card sets. I was very frustrated when one day my father came with an extra set of questions.
Tristram wrote: "Competetiveness is one of the springs that keep me going. When I was a teenager and Trivial Pursuit was en vogue,"You have just brought up both a bad and confusing memory at the same time, I know I hate, hate, hate that game but it's been so long since I was forced to play it I can't remember why.
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Competetiveness is one of the springs that keep me going. When I was a teenager and Trivial Pursuit was en vogue,"You have just brought up both a bad and confusing memory at the ..."
O.K. I can't resist asking this Trivial Pursuit question.
What was the nationality of the inventors of the game Trivial Pursuit? The answer, of course, rests in the fact that I asked the question. :-))
Hilary wrote: "Everyman, (6 days ago) you stir the beast of envy or is it covetousness or both? as, no matter how hard I think, think, think I cannot remember 'my having been remarkably good at' anything. Ever."Clearly just fishing for a compliment. [g]
I could name at least three things offhand you're remarkably good at, but it would just give you a swelled head, so I won't. :)
Tristram wrote: "Competetiveness is one of the springs that keep me going. When I was a teenager and Trivial Pursuit was en vogue," I have never played Trivial Pursuit. Ever. Nope. Never.
And if I had, I know I would have been remarkably bad at it.
I have one of the original Trivial Pursuit games, circa 1983 or so, and my daughter, born in 1988, would get so frustrated with me when I'd beat her solely because the geo-political questions were so out of date and inaccurate. This past Christmas I was given a current version of the game, and now, of course, she's winning.
'Trivial Pursuit', now there's a game! I used to love it, though I was particularly deficient in General Knowledge. I loved to get the nature questions, not necessarily because I expected to get them right, but because I liked that section. Really, looking back, we usually played at Christmas time in front of a roaring turf fire (I'm making myself homesick for Ireland and I live here!) and I think that it was the atmosphere more than anything. There were six of us vying for first place. We divided into teams. No one wanted to be in my team, but hey, they were polite about it. So Kim, I understand your ambivalent attitude towards it. Brendan (my husband) was sickeningly good at it, so everyone wanted to be on his team. Ah, the years of therapy ...
Mary Lou, we had a 1988 version, I think. It was the year our eldest was born. We thought of getting an update, but not yet ... An old game of 'Articulate' is our most enduring game. (Charades in the form of cards and a board; well, a slightly tweaked form of charades.)
Kim, I realise that those times make me Christmas-nostalgic the most. Your influence has even had me wanting to collect Christmas figures. There's a problem: no Bronner's. I know that there are shops in this country that do such things, but not in the town where we live. :-(. La di da, I shall live vicariously through you, Kim ... "Please don't!", I hear you cry ...
Everyman, (21 hours ago), you are fast becoming my hero! There's a compliment and 'tis true. Thank you for your kindness. It really means so much.I must say that I do love you all - Tristram, Kim, Jean, Everyman, Peter, John, Vanessa, Mary-Lou, Kate, Shaymond and anyone else that I may, inadvertently, have forgotten. And for those of you who cannot cope with gushiness, sick-bags will be provided ... (Well, not by me, as I'm a cheap-skate.)
I truly hope that I can keep up with you in this group as it is like a group of friends and that ought not to be sniffed at. Thank you all.
Every year I give up Christmas for Lent. I can't play Christmas music, read Christmas books, any of that. I could tell you that you got me to break my Lent vow by getting me to look up Christmas shops in Ireland, but a few nights ago I got a call that one of my very best friends has cancer in her lung and liver and that it's stage 4. When I got off the phone I walked into the living room where the piano is, sat down and started playing "White Christmas". My husband and my son both told me they knew it was bad news just because I did that. So, since the whole thing went out the window that night, here are some Christmas stores, maybe not in your town, but hey, at least they're in Ireland. :-) I wonder if I'm an influence over any other people in this club - they know who they are. :-)http://fantasychristmaslights.ie/cont...
http://www.beechvista.com/
http://www.irishchristmastrees.com/
http://www.brownthomas.com/the-christ...
As for that goofy game, my first husband's family used to love to play games, they'd sit and play for hours, and hours, and hours, and hours, and..........I'd get so sick of it I used to cheat to lose so we could go home. I still don't like playing games and it's been 20 years.
Hilary wrote: "Everyman, (21 hours ago), you are fast becoming my hero! There's a compliment and 'tis true. Thank you for your kindness. It really means so much.I must say that I do love you all - Tristram, Kim..."
I had to read over that hero part quickly, as for the rest of your post it was lovely and made my evening. I would have said made my day, but the day is over so I went with evening. You are so sweet, unlike other people.......they know who they are. :-)
Hilary wrote: "I truly hope that I can keep up with you in this group as it is like a group of friends and that ought not to be sniffed at. Thank you all. "We really are a quite remarkably good set of e-friends, aren't we?
There are times I think it would be fun to have a face-to-face meeting of the group sometime. But then I realize how much I would disappoint in person, so figure it's better left this way. (Though if I ever get over to Victoria, I might look up Peter.)
Kim wrote: "I wonder if I'm an influence over any other people in this club - they know who they are. :-)."Oh, you're an influence over me, all right. I never used to "bah, humbug" anybody. Now I find myself doing it a lot. All your influence.
Awh Km, I'm so sorry about your friend. I know 'Sorry" doesn't cut it ... Your story of playing 'White Christmas' during Lent is well, oh my ... The heartache and sheer beauty that are encapsulated in that story will remain with me. Those emotions will stay with me and transcend memory loss. Thank you, Kim.
Everyman, I think of that so often. E-friends are wonderful, particularly when one is a shy bod. On one level II should love to meet up in person and on another I'd be terrified. All the old insecurities would most likely be there. Anyhow, whether or not we were to meet in person what we have is lovely. I do wonder though, were one of us to shuffle off this mortal coil, how would the rest know? I'm sorry if this seems morbid, but I had just reconnected with a primary school friend recently. I knew that she'd been ill for some time, but she seemed so strong and jolly. A friend from England messaged me two nights ago in the wee small hours to tell me the news. We had lost contact for many years so I don't in any way liken our friendship to that of you and your friend, Kim.
Hilary wrote: "I do wonder though, were one of us to shuffle off this mortal coil, how would the rest know?"I had an internet "pen pal" (showing my age here) with whom I became very close. We had so many things in common! She was sick and chose not to let her friends know how bad it was. When she died a few years ago it came as a shock to many of us. I learned about it from her FB page a week or two after the fact. Though we'd never met in person, it was a great loss and has left a hole. Even this morning, with the loss of George Martin (our love of the Beatles brought us together), I wished I could reach out to her.
Already, many of you are starting to create a lovely little niche in my life. I guess it is one of the bittersweet aspects of the internet age -- we get to meet wonderful people from around the world who share our interests (it boggles my mind sometimes!), but we may lose them, for whatever reason, and never know why. I intend to enjoy you all for the time that we're together, however long that will be. :-)
a marriage with a person of inferior social position
Origin of mésalliance
French, from més- mis- + alliance
First Known Use: 1782
The first thing that came up with hedonism was a nice, normal definition:
the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence.
the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.
However just below that was this:
Hedonism II | Top Nudist Resorts In Negril, Jamaica
Hedonism II is one of the most famous nudist resorts in the world. Located in Negril, Jamaica, people visit from all over the world to live out their fantasies.
Hedo-Life - Clothing Optional Resorts - Accommodations - Photos
I haven't yet checked this out, if I made a list of things I want to do before I look at photos of naked people it would be a long, long list, but it did make me wonder how many famous nudist resorts there could be in the world, and if there is a Hedonism I. Here's the web site, feel free to check it out yourselves. ;-)
http://www.hedonism.com/