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To flag or not flag?
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A.M.
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Feb 15, 2016 12:48PM
So, I have a conundrum. I was just reading a review of my book, when I suddenly realized there are parts that are taken word-for-word or nearly so from a review posted a day or so ago. While I welcome any and all reviews, whether good or bad, my understanding of the reviews system is that reviews should be honest, not cribbed off of someone else's. My question is, should I flag this review, or simply alert the moderators for the group in which the book was reviewed?
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I have no experience with flagging reviews for any reason, it's just that I'm rarely humble about offering my opinion. With that caveat:I assume from your post that there's no attribution to the literal quotes, i.e., "or as Jane said in her brilliant review of this book [quote quote quote]." That being so, my gut reaction is that flagging probably escalates the matter, and in a public way, to either the GR "authorities" or at a minimum to the moderators of the group.
Considering how able the moderators are in the genre group in which I write (MM Romance), my suggestion is that you contact the moderators via email or a PM if you know a name, with something along the lines of: "X's review was posted on [date], but A's review was posted [time frame] earlier on [date]. It seems to me that X's review is taken from A's review in a [descriptor] way. For example, A says "ABC" and X says [ABC as well] [virtually the same thing in [quote it]. This doesn't seem appropriate to me. What should I do, or is there anything you can do?"
Just my USD .02.
Eric
I a mod of a review group and I've dealt with a similar problem. All it took was a polite email, from me, to resolve the problem. Good luck.
Thanks, Eric and Emma! I emailed the group's mod and let her know about the issue. I copied the text in question into my email, and on closer inspection, I can see they are clearly identical, with a few synonyms plugged in here and there.Thanks for the advice.
Well, let us know if truth, justice and the [insert your country here] way prevail!
I'd also flag -- goodreads staff can more easily see if more than one review had been stolen and posted in other groups.
To update - flag it is exactly what the reading group mod recommended, for just the same reason D.A. stated. She agreed it was an obviously copied review, and the GR mods can see if the reviewer has copied other reviews. So, that's exactly what I'm going to do.
That's an unusual one. I've never heard of reviews being copied before. Not quite sure why someone would want to do that.I took a look at your reviews and couldn't see one that was copied word for word. I could see several which raised similar points, but that's perhaps not surprising if several people independently have the same reaction to a book. Maybe the offending review has been removed?
You've flagged now, so it's a little too late to offer advice. If it had happened to me I would have ignored it. It is rarely a good idea to comment on your reviews unless there is something like a sustained campaign going on. We run the risk of alienating our readers if they think that we will be challenging their right to review. We might get one review overturned but lose many more if readers get annoyed.
Your call. The risk of pursuing one review is that you might win a battle but lose the war.
Will wrote: "That's an unusual one. I've never heard of reviews being copied before. Not quite sure why someone would want to do that.I took a look at your reviews and couldn't see one that was copied word fo..."
There have been other cases of review plagiarism, both here and on Amazon. It's not common, but not unheard of. In many cases, the plagiarising reviewer has copied tens or hundreds of reviews. so it's a service to everyone to report them.
But you are correct in saying plagiarism is different from two reviews raising similar points. I got accused of plagiarising a review once because I said I didn't think arranging a book of quotes in alphabetical order by topic was as original as the author implied. I hadn't actually read any other reviews, but yes. The only other person to have reviewed the book also felt that using the alphabet didn't qualify as an original idea. Who'd have thought.
I've seen it a number of times and found it no problem to flag them as they were not for my own book. Seems to me the account might be fake to generate a certain activity for itself, or that the user is trying to pull in views for a blog of its own or something by making the goodreads account "interesting". Flag would be the most appropriate choice I imagine, after that just ignore it.
Just to be clear, such reviews I flag, are like 90% copy pasted from an earlier review, or even a review from another book. Not "this person said blablabla and I totally agree with it".
Will wrote: "That's an unusual one. I've never heard of reviews being copied before. Not quite sure why someone would want to do that.I took a look at your reviews and couldn't see one that was copied word fo..."
It isn't as uncommon as you'd think, otherwise, GR wouldn't put copying a review and calling it your own in the list of "inappropriate" actions when leaving a review. As I said, I brought the review to the attention of the group mod prior to flagging, and she agreed it was blatantly copied.
As of this morning, the duplicate review is still there. (I flagged it late last night, so GR probably hasn't gotten to it yet.) If you sort the list by Newest, the copy appears on 2/14, and the original is 2/12.
I hate to say this, but would you have been so bothered if this pair of reviews, which do have parts that are identical, hadn't been three stars?In the long run, it doesn't matter, and being concerned about it is only going to drive you to distraction. My advice is to shrug, think 'poor sap can't even think up their own comments' and walk away.
One day you'll get a one star, everyone does eventually. And on that day, you'll have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and dive back in.
Respectfully, Emma, I have to disagree. It doesn't matter whether those two reviews were 1, 3, or 5 stars. Of course if it had been a copied 1-star "review" the author would be accused of retaliation, most likely by the copier and those who condone that conduct.Plagiarism...and that's precisely what this is...isn't tolerated in the real world when it comes to light, and since GR is devoted to books and writing, the minimum "standard" we can legitimately have for reviews is that they be original, no matter how bad the typing, the grammar, the spelling, or whatever.
I think flagging was absolutely the right thing to do.
Just my USD .02.
Eric
Yes, but you aren't the one being plagiarised, are you? If anyone has lost out here it is the author of the first review who might feel annoyed that someone mirrored some of his/her sentiments in a subsequent review. Or maybe they will feel vindicated that someone else shared their opinions. We don't know as they aren't the ones who are complaining.Yes, the two reviews seem similar. Yes, it does seem as if the second reviewer cribbed from the first. But is it really worth making a fuss over it? That could come across as being churlish.
There is a sound piece of advice that has been handed down from writer to writer. A little bit of wisdom that has been learned the hard way through pain and suffering ... writers should (almost) never respond to bad reviews.
Whether you are in the right or not, it doesn't matter. You might think there is an important point of principle to uphold. You might want to thcweam and thcream until you are thick because it's so unfair.
Whatever. Writers should (almost) never respond to bad reviews. The "almost" is stuck in there because there are rare occasions when we need to take a standard. Rare occasions. This isn't one of them.
As I said before, it's your call. You might think that this is "absolutely the right thing to do". I know dozens of writers who would run in the opposite direction believing that it is "absolutely the wrong thing to do".
Emma wrote: "I hate to say this, but would you have been so bothered if this pair of reviews, which do have parts that are identical, hadn't been three stars?In the long run, it doesn't matter, and being conce..."
I was waiting for someone to ask if it was the rating that caused me to flag the review. :)
The answer is no, the rating didn't bother me. It's 3 stars, not 2 or 1. But, really, no review bothers me. I've gotten a 2-star rating before, and it didn't bother me. Why should it? That rating just means my writing didn't connect with that reader, and that's ok.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on my book and anyone else's book. All I ask, all that anyone on GR asks, is that the opinion presented for a book be their own.
Is is possible this person didn't have time to write a review or found my writing so mind-numbing that they were unable to think of something to say? Sure. But, it's the reviewer's responsibility to go to the group mod and say, sorry, I didn't finish the book or couldn't write something.
Plagiarism reviews only cheapens the experience for all readers and authors on GR.
Before poking at author for wanting to remove a plagiarized 3-star review -- remember that ★★★☆☆ on goodreads is "I liked the book" the same as a ★★★★☆ review on Amazon. And even on Amazon the 3-star isn't a negative rating, just an okay/average rating.I don't see anything nefarious about an author reacting to plagiarism.
Will wrote: "... Not quite sure why someone would want to do that...."
Reasons I've heard:
- make a privacy or phishing site look legit by adding "reviews"
- make that account look like just another reader writing reviews and participating (spam and worse come later after the account has followers and an air of legitimacy)
- game the reviewer rankings or increase your number of reviews, particularly if on a site where you get approved for or offered free review copies or ARCs
- like said upthread, get attention for own blogs, books and sites
- sell 'em. Paid promotor content and paid reviews aren't allowed on goodreads (and if not disclosing payment are illegal in with consumer reviews on all u.s. sites) -- but people keep trying anyway. The Internet is full of buying/selling ...
- douchebags feeling entitled to everything, someone else's work or not, stealing or not -- sometimes with an attitude about how hard they have it which justifies the entitlement
- if posting to qualify some team or group challenge *sigh* some people feel it's winning even if it's just cheating and all virtual bragging rights. Must win, must get the most followers, the most review likes ...
To further the point as to why no rating level bothers me, nor should it bother any other author, search in GR for the name of any famous author. What do you get as you scroll through the entries for their books? Plenty of book ratings below 4.00.Stephen King's Carrie: 3.90 avg
Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys: 3.98 avg
James Patterson's Kiss the Girls: 3.90 avg
Many people loved those books, though, and it's unlikely any of those authors lost sleep over a 3, 2, or 1-star review. So, why should I?
Did any of those authors flag a copied review? I have no clue. As Will said, the choice is theirs. Personally, I just prefer to uphold the code of conduct, which requires honesty in reviews.
But, I will say in all seriousness, I'm glad I noticed the duplicate review, because I think this is a really great discussion we're having.
D.A. - I think you're missing the point(s). A.M. isn't saying that he objects to the rating and I am not saying that there is anything "nefarious" about what he is doing in flagging it. All I am saying is that there is a huge risk for authors who react to reviews they don't like. Some readers take exception to it. In the publishing world, it's sometimes known as the "author's big mistake".
In this particular instance, we might have a reviewer with some "nefarious" reason for posting a review with similar sentiments to an earlier one. Or it might simply be someone who has given themselves an easier life by repeating a point that they happen to agree with.
So what happens if A.M. challenges this review? Best case scenario - this review is removed and he has one fewer "okay/ average" review than he had before.
Worst case scenario - A.M. gets a bad reputation, the reviewer rewrites it as a one star review, the reviewer gets lots of friends to write their own one star reviews, A.M. finds it harder to get reviews in the future, and so on.
That's why it's known as the Author's Big Mistake. You might get away with it, you might not. But it seems like a hell of a lot to risk to get a three star review removed.
Will, while this is something of an exception because the author is posting about it, flagging a review is not the same as responding. The reviewer isn't told who flagged it.
Will wrote: "D.A. - I think you're missing the point(s). A.M. isn't saying that he objects to the rating and I am not saying that there is anything "nefarious" about what he is doing in flagging it. All I am ..."S
Flagging a review, or anything else, will have no impact on anyone's reputation. No one sees the flags except GR. GR determines whether or not there is a problem with the review or post and they take action accordingly. Whether or not you are an author, I believe that if you see what you suspect is plagiarized content you should flag it.
The thing is though, these boards are public and anyone can see them so yeah it would be anonymous if the author would flag a review but not post it anywhere. I agree with Faith that plagiarism should be flagged. The thing is...I must be blind because I can't see the two similar reviews.
Are they similar in content? Because you have to remember they read the same book so they could have the same thing to point out, the same pet peeves, the same preferences, especially if it's obvious in the book.
(I'll have to go back and check the three stars again...)
G.G. is right. This forum is open to the public. A.M.'s author page gives his latest posts which includes this discussion.Flagging may be done in secret, but coming onto this page and talking about it most certainly isn't.
So, for future reference, flag but shut up about it. Also, I agree with G.G., I couldn't find the duplicate reviews.
They aren't complete duplicates. A portion of one is repeated at the end of another.
Well the words are similar, I agree but they are not a copy paste. It can be because they both have the same taste. They thought the story was written for a young audience but also felt it was too dark for such audience. There's just so many ways they can say that in a short review. And the similarities stop there.Sadly, I don't see the plagiarism. I just see two people who read the same book and thought the same thing.
A couple of things:- A.M. = she, not he (common mistake, but not if you read my bio)
- If the reviewer held the same opinion as the person whose review was cannibalized (again, which is fine) isn't it easier to write, "I hold the same opinion as X" and then quote the other review, rather than risk getting flagged?
- I'm not going to lose sleep over whether this person finds out their review was flagged or not.
- Also, let's get real - if the review is yanked, whether I flagged it or someone else, everyone assumes it was the author who cried foul, right?
Not really. The one who wrote the first review could flag the other. Readers who read the reviews to make up their mind could also find it 'fishy' and flag it. It's not always the author.I understand that it would be easy to say 'I hold the same opinion as x' , yes... that is.. if the other reviewer actually read that said review. What I'm trying to say is that they might have had the same idea about the book without having read each other's reviews.
Sorry I tend to give the benefit of the doubt...
The review in question reminds me of when a student has procrastinated on writing a report and doesn't have time (or desire) to do it properly. It uses a technique of rephrasing the source material. It's not plagiarism, technically speaking, but it doesn't read as an originally-written review, either. It's reads as "I promised a review but I don't feel like it / didn't read it / am not good at reviews, so I'm going to do a rewrite of a review that someone else already wrote."
The vast majority of readers never post a review and many never read them. Readers tend to rely more upon their evaluation of a book based upon the recommendation of personal acquaintances or by reading the blurb or a one two-page sampling.For a published author, there is no upside to obsessing over consumer reviews for any reason.
A.M. wrote: "A couple of things:- A.M. = she, not he (common mistake, but not if you read my bio)
- If the reviewer held the same opinion as the person whose review was cannibalized (again, which is fine) isn..."
I've flagged reviews a few times without being the author, so I would not make that assumption. Once I noticed the same review by the same reviewer was repeated. I suspected a bug. Once I flagged a bunch of reviews by obvious sock puppets formed just to trash a book. GR cleaned them out really quickly.
Will wrote: "...All I am saying is that there is a huge risk for authors who react to reviews they don't like. Some readers take exception to it. In the publishing world, it's sometimes known as the "author's big mistake". ..."No risk to an author in flagging anything. I just meant by my sarcastic "nefarious" that this didn't seem to have anything to do with the star rating itself.
Flagging is private; goodreads won't publicize who flagged a review (seldom even respond back to person flagging). They'll just take the action they decide to take after "investigating."
I wouldn't suggest commenting on a review to say you are flagging or getting into it with the thief in their review comments. It's not usually a good idea for an author to be seen embroiled in the review comments even if in this case they're in the "right." Once comments or review are gone, too easy for reputation and rumors to go around blogosphere saying who knows what with screenshot of one comment on a now deleted longer conversation ...
"No risk to an author in flagging anything."Surely you can't be serious? If a less than glowing review is flagged then almost everyone's first assumption is going to be that the author flagged it. Add to that the trail of digital footprints leading from the review to pages like this one, and I would say that there is a very big risk to an author by flagging a review.
It does not matter whether GR publicises flagging or not. Reputations can be lost on suspicion just as much as fact.
The "author's big mistake" is still the "author's big mistake". My firm advice to anyone in this situation is to leave reviews well alone unless there is a very blatant attempt at manipulation or fraud. It simply isn't worth the risk.
I don't know any fellow readers who immediately suspect author flagged a removed review (unless author said so). Unless goodreads told them something about removing a review, most readers I know assume some site cache or bug at first when missing a review.I actually have never seen any comments or posts anywhere on the Internet or blogosphere complaining/blaming authors for flagging reviews for removal -- except when author revealed they did, said they tried to get removed because ____ ....
There are quite a few authors damaging their reputations (not really on topic for the plagiarism issue brought up in this thread) or alienating readers by some of their ideas on what reviews should or shouldn't be, what reviews have to say as if we're all writing book reports or paid professional reviewers, what should be removed, what qualifies their customer to read the book or write a review, how a review is fake because reader cannot read that fast or post that many review at once, how must be flagged if review doesn't justify rating, etc.
I'm expecting another round of clueless authors screeching about (and potentially flagging) fake reviews because "no one can read that many books" or a "fake account" because Amazon is shutting down Shelfari -- meaning a potentially massive influx of reviews, ratings and shelvings. Just because in the past as book sites shut down or options like syncing to your Amazon purchases happened, there's always a bunch of suthirs screeching to remove that 1-star review because clearly fake because the new account couldn't possibly have read or reviewed ...
Authors get blamed, justly and unjustly, for lots of things and immediately suspected of stuff -- but not for flagging when someone's review was removed and author never posted about it.
The most frequent complaints about removed reviews come from paid fivver and other accounts getting discovered who make up all kinds of "why" or from authors upset because of sockpuppet and paid ★★★★★ reviews got removed.
I'm not sure why, without examples, anyone thinks a common reader reaction to a removed review is to think the author flagged it. Much less by thinking that if an author flagged a review as "unwanted" that site staff remove it without any other reason--readers don't remain on sites that are known to do that unless paid to do so.
I dn't think many of us even think of authors generally flagging reviews; we more likely expect them to whine about reviews less ratings (particulalry 1-star ones to remove their book from the recommendations engine here), to be actively seeking more reviews (and even paying and faking some to offset their bad ones), to whine about the bad ones (and even confront reviewers in publicly visible review spaces), publicly insist how customers should write up their opinions about their subjective personal reading experiences ... but flagging isn't the first thought that comes to mind.
I'm glad to know that Faith has flagged clitchy and obvious fake reviews, but unfortunately, she is the not the norm I think. I wish her actions were more the norm, or we'd have less blaming of authors for the correct actions being taken, no matter who took them, as D.A. said. Too often authors do whine about less than stellar or outright bad reviews. It makes all the rest of us look bad. Why anyone would waste their time flagging an honest, but bad review, I don't know. It's not the number of stars that does us any justice in the ratings game, it's the number of reviews.
How many have read and rated your book?
5 = not that great a book
105 = obviously, the book is worth reading
In the end, a handful of 2-star or 1-star reviews won't matter.
D.A. - you are arguing against yourself ..."There are quite a few authors damaging their reputations ... or alienating readers by some of their ideas on what reviews should or shouldn't be"
"Authors get blamed, justly and unjustly, for lots of things and immediately suspected of stuff"
That's the point about risk. Often risks can't be quantified. None of us know how readers will react to something. Or whether they will even notice. You may never have seen it before. But the risk is there.
Let me tell you a story. Gerald Ratner was a British businessman and chief executive of a jewellery firm called Ratners. In 1991 he was giving a speech at a black tie Institute of Directors dinner. In his speech he talked about a decanter set that his firm sold for a ridiculously low price. He said:
People say, "How can you sell this for such a low price?", I say, "because it's total crap."
He probably reasoned it just the way that you have. No-one will notice. No-one ever lost their job for something they said at a dinner. It'll be alright.
Except it wasn't alright. Ratners lost £500 million in value almost instantly and Gerald Ratner lost his job.
Anything that an author does to challenge a review carries the risk that it will come back to bite them. Maybe not as dramatically as Gerald Ratner's big mistake - it's not every day that you throw away half a billion - but enough to harm sales.
As you said: "Authors get blamed, justly and unjustly, for lots of things and immediately suspected of stuff"
A.M., I checked out the 2 reviews, and I agree with you that the reviewer copied that paragraph from the other reviewer. They just changed the words a little bit, but it's still plagiarism. As a reviewer (I'm not an author), I thank you for flagging it. If someone ever copied one of my reviews, I would appreciate if someone took the time to flag it. Plagiarism hurts us all. I think the only problem with GR, and D.A. please correct me if wrong, is that if you edit a review the date of the review might change so you can't tell who posted the review first.
Anyway, I flagged the review as well.
Correct -- if you edit a review the review date changes. As to Gerald Ratner story -- I'd also have fired an employee who went aorund tanking the very product they were supposed to be selling. And I certainly wouldn't buy anything from someone tanking their product -- if they think it's utter crap, why do I want to buy it? Or from a company who didn't fire employees who went around publicly tanking the product as utter crap -- if the company isn't behind the product, why would I want to buy it? Their sales should have dropped.
(Not sure what the story had to do with privately flagging a review or even publicly challenging a review but Ratner deserved firing and the loss of sales was justified.)
Not sure what the Ratner story has to do with publicly challenging a review? Really?Ratner lost his job because he showed a lack of respect for his customers. That's what the author's big mistake is all about. If we don't respect our customers, how can we expect them to trust us?
And how are readers going to feel respected if authors challenge their right to leave a review?
Will,I find you "spot on" and helpful in so many of your posts in other threads, that it distresses me to disagree. >teasing smile<
I don't think anyone in this topic is challenging a reader's right to leave a review, but rather the issue is that a reader has a right to leave a review that he or she has created, but has no right to leave a review which is stolen/appropriated/lifted from another published review of the same work, without attribution. That's where the disrespect comes in.
Of course, we may just have to agree to disagree.
Eric-the-ever-(dis?)agreeable
Yes, but that wasn't the question, was it?Let's rewind to post #1. A.M.'s question was "should I flag this or not?"
I've looked at both reviews. It's not easy to spot at first, but yes it does look as if one of the reviewers has copied the other. If either of the reviews was a published work, I'd say that was plagiarism.
So, in theory, it is just about possible that one of the reviewers may feel a little annoyed than someone has loosely copied their words. Or they may not. They might feel flattered that someone agrees with them.
But that wasn't the question. The question was "should I flag or not?" And I have seen too many authors get burned when they try to do something about a review they don't like. It doesn't matter whether there has been plagiarism or not. It is all too easy for one or more readers to decide that an author is being too heavy-handed.
My advice remains. No. You should not flag a review that you don't like unless it is an extreme example or you as an author have been disadvantaged by it.
It's not about right or wrong. It's about levels of risk.
Quoted from the GR Review Guidelines:"Our Review Philosophy
Goodreads is for expressing your honest opinions about books. Don't be afraid to say what you think about the book!
[...]
And here are some of the things that might cause your review to receive a lower priority in our internal ranking system, which may affect whether or not your review appears on the book page:
- We will not tolerate abuse of our ratings system, such as rating the same work more than once for the purpose of inflating or deflating the book's average rating. Multiple ratings we determine to be abusive will be removed.
- Reviews must be your own original content. Reviews that plagiarize from another source or use copyrighted material without permission will be deleted."
Flagging a review that is in violation of the GR guidelines in no way impinges upon an individual's right to review anyone's product, mine included. It simply calls attention to a probable abuse of the system.
I respect all readers' rights to leave a review of my work - good, bad, or ugly - as they see fit. Feel free to quote another review, if you feel the same way as someone else, but don't copy it and pass it off as something you thought up.
I think I've made the respect I have for readers' right to rate books quite clear here. Any readers who feel otherwise should let me know straightaway.
Going on and on about risk? It's a waste of time. If we were all deathly afraid of risk, none of us would walk outside or even publish a book in the first place.
Sorry, standing up for the integrity of the system is a risk I'll take.
I just checked another review, for another book, by this person and there seems to be the same issue. It's a little more subtle, but it's still apparent. I'm not even sure the person is doing it maliciously. I don't think they understand what they are doing is wrong. Maybe.PS I flagged that one, too. I'll let GR figure it out.
Rachel the Book Harlot wrote: "I just checked another review, for another book, by this person and there seems to be the same issue. It's a little more subtle, but it's still apparent. I'm not even sure the person is doing it ma..."Thanks, Rachel. I appreciate you giving my flag a little more credence. It is possible the person doesn't know that copying another's review is not allowed, but as you said, it's for GR to determine this and take appropriate action.
"Going on and on about risk? It's a waste of time. If we were all deathly afraid of risk, none of us would walk outside or even publish a book in the first place."As I said before, it's your call. You asked for advice and I gave it. Maybe it's not the advice you wanted to hear, but that's what happens when we ask a question. We don't always get back the responses that we want or expect.
