Series: Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson ("Gardens of the Moon")

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ch 6, DG

Okay, Darrik, you're right. (view spoiler)[ Felisin is a total asshat. But I think Baudin is, too. And sometimes Heboric. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Allison wrote: "Ch 6, DG

Okay, Darrik, you're right. [spoilers removed]"

I agree on all three points, especially at this point in the novel.

[Peter_Banning]

DG Felisin

(view spoiler)[ at this point I feel I have a better understanding of Felisin, and although I still don’t like how she is acting, I do understand her better, her rage, her pain and such. Heboric and Baudin or like constant reminders of that pain and failings. I don’t wanna give away anymore yet, in case you aren’t as far. But... things are happening! Good things... and bad lol (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I just started book 2 of DG so you're well ahead of me! Glad it starts to even out eventually. :)

[Peter_Banning]

DG
Oh wow. Well, it starts picking up in book two. Sh*t gets real in book 3, and Felisin, improves! 🙂 I’m excited for you! Haha

[David]

I totally intended to join in, but I gotta say, I'm getting really mixed signals from you all about this book :/

[Peter_Banning]

Lol don’t be worried. This is a series of extremes. You love it or hate it, incredible low points and amazing high points. It’s incredibly intricate and does require active reading. This group along with Tor Rereads definitely helps. It’s got lots of action and adventure and creatures. Honestly if you are unsure, throw down on the first one and wait and see what we all think of this one/ look at reviews of the series and such. It should help!

[David]

Oh, I've read Gardens of the Moon. I found it frustrating, but was curious enough by the end that I put Deadhouse Gates on my TBR and then ignored it until now.

I'll probably start it soon.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yes! Join us, David! I have to be done by February 28 because that's when my book is due, but it's looking like it will be a near thing!

[Travis]

I agree: join! I think it more than rewards the effort.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

DG through Ch 9

(view spoiler)[ It's like suddenly Erikson remembered that there are people in this book and people reading it! Finally, some life and inner workings of everyone.

A couple thoughts. Re: Felisin, it's true that hurt people hurt people, and that it's not uncommon for victims to claim love with their abuser because then it tends to make it feel like the victim chose this. It's a way of grasping at control--if you think you either did this because it's the life you and your lover decided on, or to help your lover, or if they hurt you because of something bad you did that they needed you to atone for, it becomes a two way street again, rather than something done to you.

I just don't think Erikson's thought through entirely what that looks like. Something is off--either his dude characters are suuuuch monsters they can't see what the author sees, or he's got the concept of victimization without something he can really base it on. Even how she uses her sexuality after they escape is stilted to me--I think it took him until they got to the boat to realize more what that would mean to her. Her portrayal reads a lot like those early drawings of lions by artists who'd never seen them--the idea is there, but it's related to something only tangentially part of reality.

Speaking of the boat, holy crap that was cool. I can't wait to find out more about the T'lan Imass too.

I'm also getting a little mad at Kalam, I get he started the Whirlwind to get back at Laseen, but it seems like a lot of the work was already being done. I don't get why the book once found needed Kalam to deliver it, or what it's doing that the Redblades weren't already doing. And, strangely, we are more in his head, and his head is focused on women. I think the relationships in this book are going to give me headaches, but as long as demons and ghost ships keep popping up, I'll likely get over it. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Allison wrote: "DG through Ch 9."

(view spoiler)[Your thoughts about Felisin are so clearly written and helpful. Yes! The lion metaphor seems spot on. I also felt her characterization was a clear failing on Erikson's part, and I also agree that he seems to wise up as the book moves on. (hide spoiler)]

[Soo]

Memories of Ice was much better than DG. Be prepared to yell a lot. Moving onto book4. I think that one will be a meh one but maybe I will feel invested enough to chomp down the rest.

[Bobby]

Soo wrote: "Memories of Ice was much better than DG. Be prepared to yell a lot. Moving onto book4. I think that one will be a meh one but maybe I will feel invested enough to chomp down the rest."

I'm really interested in what you will say about book 4. It kind of throws you for a loop at the beginning.

[Soo]

Ahhh things to look forward to! Yay

[Soo]

Well poop! I forgot the narrator change in book 4. *grumbles*

[Peter_Banning]

DG through chap 9
Allison

(view spoiler)[ so I looked back and did some rereading, cause I had the same question about Kalam. Unfortunately it was not 100% the answer I wanted lol. So for now, it seems that Kalam didn’t have to deliver the book. He simply chose to because, “ Kalam wants to be at the heart of things. It’s always been his way. This time, the chance literally fell into his lap. And, “it would add another crack to Laseens crumbling control” so that’s why he agreed. Now, it did not have to be him as the guy that gave him the book mentioned they had tried to use a different person first but that guy, “took freight and is probably half way to G’danisban by now.” The other thing is that the Redblades are supporting the empire and they needed someone to deliver the book to Sha’ik so they could find and kill her.

As far as Felisin, I still have hope for her and her storyline lol. I had high expectations from what people have said but her arc might be a little...idk...left of center?

And Kalam, seems to be very single focused so as a guy I’m not surprised his mind wondering to girls... too much. He is an elite assassin, he needs to control that shit! Lol (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

David wrote: "I totally intended to join in, but I gotta say, I'm getting really mixed signals from you all about this book :/"

I hope you do join. Given that we had a similar reaction to the first instalment, I would love to get your opinion on this one. It seems that I’m in the minority in my liking of this book, but I can reassure you that the writing is much improved!

Allison wrote: "DG through Ch 9"

(view spoiler)[ Love your insight into Felisin, I agree it seems a rather clumsy attempt, though there might be some truth in it.
And yeah, I did not like to be in Kalam’s head either… what strange thoughts to have about women.
I was a bit confused about the ghost ship, but you’re right it was a pretty cool idea. Sometimes, I just think there is nothing happening and then everything happens all at once and you do not get enough time to process it through the characters. This fact was really frustrating to me in this book. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Darrik wrote: "DG through chap 9
Allison

[spoiler]"

(view spoiler)[ Wait, the Redblades are in support of the Empire? I thought they were the ones trying to start rebellion?

Yeah, I think there were a few things in the first third of the book the author needed to have done and instead of convince us (or himself) why these characters were doing any of that, he just went full steam ahead lol.

Why Whirlwind? BECAUSE. ACTION. Why Felisin? BECAUSE. FALLEN. Why are Apsalar and Crokus still "an item?" BECAUSE. and so on. I don't love that, as you can see, I tend to fixate on things haha so I really need there to be a progression beyond "he's a doer." But it is picking up, so I'm hopeful it's going to get cooler :) (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

Allison wrote: "Darrik wrote: "DG through chap 9
Allison

(view spoiler)[ Yes, I also understood the Redblades to be in favour of the empire

And I hate BECAUSE too! I hate being told: I want progression, see things happening for reasons and that characters behave according to their character. (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

Also, I did it! I’ve just finished the epilogue: what a ride, but overall, I have to say I’m glad that I can now read another story for a while. Still, I will join for the next instalment. It is just so much better to read these books with friends, otherwise I’m not sure I would have made it. So, thank you all!

Here are my very random thoughts / notes from my reading:
Book 1
(view spoiler)[
Prologue: Creepy, flies, walk of shame in “Game of Thrones” is nothing compared to this
Chapter 1: Finally, somebody wants to kill Laseen
Chapter 2: Bluetongue: sickness that shuts you up - LOL
Chapter 3: Yes, kill all the spiders
Chapter 4: I can’t believe what he is doing to Felisin: drugged yes, but a whore: NO!
Chapter 5: Interesting revelation about the former emperor. Also, I love the Cards: Deck of Dragons
(hide spoiler)]
Book 2
(view spoiler)[
Chapter 6: That’s a serious case of Stockholm syndrome distracting me from vicious bloodflies and horrible sliding beds.
Chapter 7: There’s rot in Felisin: I agree her behaviour is distasteful and incomprehensible. At least Apsalar is pretty badass: YES! How do Mappo and Icarum suddenly (conveniently) turn up to save Fiddler, Crokus and Apsalar?
Chapter 8: Felisin’s behaviour remains outrageously unrealistic?
Chapter 9: Finally, a reason for this waste empire: it brought peace! Oh, how could I have missed this in the middle of all these wars?
Chapter 10: More horrendous war and bloodshed, but everything is so distant  does it never end?
(hide spoiler)]
Book 3
(view spoiler)[
Chapter 11: Best chapter so far: so many revelations – love the sack of Mappo
Chapter 12: “The lessen of history is that no one learns” – oh yes!
Chapter 13: Unbelievable: I had a few chuckling moments and some characters just gained a little depth. Although to me a Historian should have more objectivity. But soon after, I’m skimming again (some more battle).
Chapter 14: I did not expect this death: that was sudden! And oh, I bleed with you Felisin, no one should go through that alone.
(hide spoiler)]
Book 4
(view spoiler)[
Chapter 15: “objective observer” my a…
Chapter 16: I really want to know more about Mappo and Icarum’s past
Chapter 17: Kalam’s motivations are a little elusive…
Chapter 18: Several conversations were not fully clear to me: is it a language barrier? A plot-device or is just everyone speaking in codes?
Chapter 19: An unexpected godsent just before a major battle? And then the enemy fights between themselves? Deus ex machina to the rescue!
Chapter 20: I think Moby the bhoka'rala is my favourite character: cute and clever. I always knew there was going to be something special about him: Finally, I’ve found something that was slowly introduced and not revealed in an absolutely novel and surprising matter, which was also true for the refugees reaching their destination. An overall very successful chapter.
Chapter 21: That was a breath-taking chapter! I love Felisin again and what a finale to Coltaine’s army.
Chapter 22: Kalam on the hunt – awesome. Then suddenly I start to like Duiker – if only this had happened earlier.
Chapter 23: Kalam’s swayed after these weak arguments? I don’t really buy it: he delivered the Whirlwind after all… all forgiven and forgotten just like that?
Chapter 24: What is dead may never die – yes, I thought so. Still loving Icarium and Mappo. I think I will continue just for them.
(hide spoiler)]
Epilogue
(view spoiler)[
Yes, I expected that too.
(hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh well that's my bad. I'll reshuffle my thoughts on that group then, thanks! Glad we're reading this together or I'd get all sorts of muddled.

And yes! I think we feel similarly about this series, Sabrina!

[Peter_Banning]

Sabrina, I’m glad the group thing helped. It’s definitely nice being able to voice opinions, thoughts and questions on stuff while reading!! The last couple hundred pages always seem to be the best so, I’m excited to get into that. Some of your random thoughts are so true though. Hopefully the series gets better for you, as we all continue!

Allison, (view spoiler)[ I was also confused about the Resblades at first, I thought they were a random third party that supported the rebellion, But as you read it become more clear that they are helping the empire, that’s why the Redblades followed Kalam and killed (view spoiler)[ Shi’ak (hide spoiler)] And more things happen that clarify their position. It’s not a plot twist or anything, I think Erickson is just kinda vague at first and explains more later in the story. (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

Darrik wrote: "Sabrina, I’m glad the group thing helped. It’s definitely nice being able to voice opinions, thoughts and questions on stuff while reading!!..."

Absolutely!
And I think you'll love these last chapters (even I did ;-) So enjoy the ride!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'll have to do the re-read and revise how I read that, I had a way different interpretation, but also I kept reading it exhausted so that did me no favors evidently.

[Soo]

Allison, DG is going to be one of the harder books for you to read. The last 30% gets better. It took a while for Memories of Ice to get going but a lot happens in that book. Also, cursing. There will be cursing. Probably at the book and what happens.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Haha! Thanks for the heads up :)

[Topher]

So I’m over half way done the first book. Some things are making sense, some still aren’t. Is it just me, or is this the way it is? If it’s the way it is does it make more sense I’m book two?

[Peter_Banning]

It’s how it’s written. The story and events slowly make more sense throughout the whole series. But you will rarely if ever get fed everything (details, background, explanation) all at once.

[Soo]

Yeah, you have to take the books as is and piece stuff together as you go. I found DG to be less satisfying to read than GotM.

[Travis]

Sabrina wrote: "Also, I did it! I’ve just finished the epilogue: what a ride, but overall, I have to say I’m glad that I can now read another story for a while. Still, I will join for the next instalment. It is ju..."

Oh, WOW! I love all these reflections.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

End of Book 3

(view spoiler)[ I'm actually feeling more distant! The Duiker scenes are grating on me in that they're all hopeless despair and muck and another femme fatale. I think it's absolutely idiotic that Coltaine would send Duiker into battle without any of the knowledge the rest of the corps seems to possess.

I hate everyone who interacts with Felisin so much that I dread those scenes. Do Not. Put sexual violence. In books. Unless you know what the fuck you're talking about. He doesn't, his characters don't, and everyone is behaving so badly about all of it that I'm kind of glad Kulp died.

The action is picking up, and the story is "progressing" but the writing craft seems to be missing. I feel this is suffering from the opposite problem of Wheel of Time--in that, Jordan had a few plot points but allowed the story to digress too much as he just wrote what sounded fun to him next. There was no structure, really. In DG, it feels like the author has a really, really strict outline that he's fleshed out with a few thoughts on the world, war, and character musings, but there's nothing organic, no flow to the story. Also, none of the characters we're sharing a head with are the characters actually moving the story, with the exception of the only two I currently like, Mappo and Icarium (and I guess Kalam for one confusing second). It's Coltaine, Apsalar, Pust, and Heboric who are the plot markers, and yet we're riding with Duiker, Kalam, Fiddler, and Felisin. That irks me. I'm sure it might be important later, but I'm reading this book now.

I'm going to finish, but I'm going to have to give a lot of thought to the sense of betrayal I have about how all the women are either prizes, hateful victims, or fodder for a man's story. I'm also going to have to reflect on whether I think the events and world that Erikson has created, which I do think are astronomically creative, are worth reading through a lot of bad storycraft. (hide spoiler)]

[Peter_Banning]

Wow, great job, very thorough explanation Allison! I have noticed many parts of this almost seem like a philosophical work lol. The parts with Felisin can be vexing, so I understand that, and the story is less than immersive at points maybe do to its huge scope, it would take too much time and too many books to include everything so Erickson cut away at many things and so there is a sort of detachment... However, I guess I’m still drawn into it because it is different and interesting in how it’s written and what it focuses on. Its realistic ish for emotions, feelings and thoughts but in a fantasy setting, I feel like. Battle isn’t glorified and there is an ugly side to war and conflict. And I think like you said, it makes sense, it just isn’t written in the best way. But I also don’t have as much reading experience and not much to compare it too. And It’s funny how a lot of authors are stereotypical in how they write certain characters, like females and males lol. I’m still hoping and holding out in belief that in book 10 I’m gonna be like, omg this all makes sense now, and was written perfectly 😂 . Personally though, I am enjoying the series and I hope it changes for you!

[David]

I started into Deadhouse Gates and I'm reminded why the first book didn't work so well for me: reading these books is work. I have to spend mental energy to make forward progress.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's also not really compatible with how and why I typically read fiction. I read fiction to unwind in the evening after I've already spent all my mental energy for the day. If I was at peak concentration, I would be doing something else instead.

[Sabrina]

Glad you liked my random musings Travis!

Alison, I love your insightful comment about writing craft: You expressed everything that I lacked words for. (view spoiler)[ the missing flow, character depth and that everyone we read about is just running along with events. (hide spoiler)]

David, I found it gets a bit easier with time (I also read in the evenings). Still, the time to read one page was probably way beyond my average reading time for this one.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

end Ch 20, DG

(view spoiler)[

UGH AFTER ALL OF THAT PAIN WE ARE ROBBED OF COLTAINE'S VICTORY!!!! WTF!

Why! Why would he speed up that glorious moment where the Wickans finally plow through Korbolo Dom?? *insert gif of Stitch clawing his eyes out in frustration*

I read in his bio that Erikson was an anthropologist and it shows. We have such cool, rich cultures and no sense of wtf is interesting to regular humans.

This story is soooo epic. It's amazing the depth and scope of it all. I'm hoping this last 100 pages gives me back the life he's just killing in me right now! (hide spoiler)]

[Peter_Banning]

There is definitely a lot that happens in the last 100 pages. Get ready for a mix of emotions lol

[Travis]

Darrik wrote: "There is definitely a lot that happens in the last 100 pages. Get ready for a mix of emotions lol"

Agree. I'll be really curious what you make of the ending, Allison.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Trying to decide how I want to read Memories of Ice because March is a very busy book month for me. My library doesn't have the audio stream...but it does have it on 36 cds!

It is now I realize, I don't think I have anything that plays cds any more!

[Maggie]

wow, you might have to go dead tree! :O

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Who's still in? And have you started Memories of Ice? I'm thinking I'll use my Audible credit for it, but it is 43 hours and I don't want to spend all of them angry! Looking for something to tip me one way or another.

[Oleksandr]

Allison wrote: "Who's still in? "

I'm tentatively in, but not sure when I catch up - I have a few more group reads and challenges to finish first

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oleksandr wrote: "Allison wrote: "Who's still in? "

I'm tentatively in, but not sure when I catch up - I have a few more group reads and challenges to finish first"

No rush! I hope you'll check in when you get to it :)

[Sabrina]

I'm still in for "memories of ice", but I'll be a bit late because I still need some time away to cool down

[Peter_Banning]

I’m definitely in. Gotta Finish the kings of the Wyld first. Should be a couple days. And might I add, this book is freaking awesome/hilarious, and an amazing break/filler book for the malazan series. I feel like that’s gonna be the key to chopping away at malazan. Every couple books, throw in something fun, fast and easy.

[Sabrina]

Darrik wrote: "I’m definitely in. Gotta Finish the kings of the Wyld first. Should be a couple days. And might I add, this book is freaking awesome/hilarious, and an amazing break/filler book for the malazan seri..."

Glad that you're continuing too: you're our positive voice!
Also, Kings of the Wyld is on my TBR: looking forward to that one, but first I want to see it published (I usually read series in one go, Malazan is a big exception), but glad to hear that it's fun.

[Peter_Banning]

Lol glad to hear! I will keep trying to help as much as possible with malazan. It is a pretty tough and dark series so it’s great to have you all to attack it with!

[Bobby]

I'm not reading it again, but I'm enjoying everyone's thoughts. Even though not everyone seems to like the series so far as much as I do, it's interesting to see different view points.

I will Say Memories of Ice is one of the best in the series. There are some new characters, along with some returning characters from the first book that are really great. I remember the first time I read it, this book was the one that really got me hooked, because I was used to the writing style, and while there were lots of new characters, it was nice to see a bunch of familiar characters for once.

The only reason I haven't been responding much is because I've been trying to avoid spoilers and I feel like a lot of my answers would unintentionally reveal things that you should find out later.

[Maggie]

Memories of Ice is my favorite. But the story is still pretty grim and dark. It takes place at Genabackis, north of Darujistan, where is was mentioned in GotM that Caladan Brood is fighting the Pannion Seer. The Pannion Seer has some really really yucky ways of doing things.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Okay, I'll stick with it!

It's not the grim dark that's the issue for me, it's why we're reading grim dark and what it being grim and dark means to the characters/author.

Thanks for the push, Bobby and Maggie!