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How many sales to stay in the top 100?
David wrote: "With the help of a listing on Bookbub, I was recently amazed to see my novel Imperfect Strangers enter the top 100 UK Kindle chart, where it peaked at number 76. I don’t mind sharin..."I'm light years away from those numbers and ranks, but I'm wondering that too -:) Can't you just ask this # 8 dude?
I don't think it's a question of overall sales, David. I think it has to do with the number of sales per day/hour until the new positions are updated. If you sell 1 book in an hour and you're up at no 10. The person at number 9 sells 2 books per hour etc. Then the person at the number 1 spot might be selling/lending 10 books per hour or more.
When you look at the number of books in the genre, it might be that the book in last position hasn't sold/lent anything in days or weeks, but they're still listed in the genre.
I suppose the answer to your question of how many books would you have to sell to stay in the top 100 is, more than the person at position 100 every update cycle. It frustrates the heck outta me, especially when you shift a shed load of books without moving up the chart.
Not a bad idea, Nik, but I don't think the likes of Jojo Moyes will tell us little people.
My understanding is that Amazon has a hidden algorithm to calculate rankings. This takes into account a number of factors including the total number sold, the rate at which it is selling, a deduction for free copies versus paid, plus a bonus when a book is new.This means that their lists are constantly changing as new titles get a turboboost in the first day or so of sales. If they didn't do this, the charts would always be dominated by the Harry Potters and Da Vinci Codes. And Amazon wouldn't make much money from a relatively static list. Hence their hidden calculation.
This does mean that we authors get a thrill when our modest sales figures get us to number one. Unfortunately that thrill is short-lived as we fall down the charts just as quickly as we rose up them.
Outside Amazon, no-one knows how the lists are calculated.
You're correct, Gaff, it's definitely not overall sales, but how many per hour which is when the ranking refreshes. It just shocked me that 116 follow up sales were not enough to stay put. Not that I'm complaining, I'm just astounded by the numbers that must be needed to get to and stay in the top ten for even a few days.
That does make sense, Will. Beyond us mere mortals to comprehend.
Just looked up Jojo here on GR. Looks like a nice lady. Don't think she can throw anything at you over the internet, if she doesn't like the question -:) You can tell her it's our collective curiosity here.Anyway, keep it up! And we will ask you once you surpass Jojo, if she doesn't answer....-:)
If mere authors had access to the algorithm, I'm sure it would be exploited. Not only that, but it would make other online stores more competitive. Both of which would be a disaster for Amazon. Just think, though, you've been in the top 100 and threatened the positions of some mighty books, even for a short time. That's an achievement.
It's not so much that it is beyond our comprehension. It's more that they want to keep the algorithm a secret so that (a) no-one complains and (b) authors don't look for new ways to game the system.The broad calculation seems pretty straightforward. It looks at factors such as total sales, sales rate, the proportion of sales which are free and how new the book is. What we don't know is how these factors are weighted.
We do know that the ranking system is skewed in favour of new books. So 348 sales might be enough to get to #76 on day one because you have the "new book" bonus and the formula is giving you credit for the rate of sales but these bonuses fades over time.
Somebody produced these figures which I kept, I suspect they may be for Amazon.com rather than .co.ukAmazon Best Seller Rank 50,000 to 100,000 - selling close to 1 book a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 10,000 to 50,000 - selling 3 to 15 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 5,500 to 10,000 - selling 15 to 30 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 3,000 to 5,500 - selling 30 to 50 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 500 to 3,000 - selling 50 to 200 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 350 to 500 - selling 200 to 300 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 100 to 350 - selling 300 to 500 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 35 to 100 - selling 500 to 1,000 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank 10 to 35 - selling 1,000 to 2,000 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank of 5 to 10 - selling 2,000 to 4,000 books a day.
Amazon Best Seller Rank of 1 to 5 - selling 4,000+ books a day.
Damn, should have done it two years back, and cashed in my "new book" bonus card. Unfortunately, I don't think Bookbub would have even sneezed on me back then.
There's something similar going on in the reviewer rankings. It depends to some extent, but not wholly, on how many books you review. It also takes into account the number of 'likes' you receive for a review - and it's astonishing that sometimes even the author doesn't 'like' a good review. You can't tell who has liked it but if there isn't one at all, you know the author didn't. Also factored in are the number and likability of other people's reviews. If it's a slack time, you seem to go up more. If it's busy, even with new likes, you go down. Again, it's something you can't swing in your favour which has to be a good thing.
Kath wrote: "There's something similar going on in the reviewer rankings. It depends to some extent, but not wholly, on how many books you review. It also takes into account the number of 'likes' you receive fo..."It's not that the authors don't 'like' good reviews, it's that my liking as an author won't show up for some reason, if I do it from the same IP address, from which I published the book. At least that's my impression and many of my 'likes' got lost in Amazon's likes Guantanamo
How odd. I know quite a lot do. The point of a review, of course, is not to flatter the author! (But it does, if it's good!)
Jim wrote: "It doesn't quite answer the question but is interestinghttp://timgrahl.com/the-truth-about-t..."
Thanks. That is a fascinating article.
Staying in the top 100,000 would be nice!Looking at Jim's list, after about line 5, I'd just like to put the word, "ever"
Tim wrote: "Staying in the top 100,000 would be nice!Looking at Jim's list, after about line 5, I'd just like to put the word, "ever""
You and me both Tim
Will wrote: "Jim wrote: "It doesn't quite answer the question but is interestinghttp://timgrahl.com/the-truth-about-t..."
Thanks. That is a fascinating..."
I thought it was interesting, shows what the lists are worth
Doesn't all of this presuppose 'a good book'?There are many methods for giving a book an initial push (hint: they all involve spending a ton of money). The times when I've seen a book do this, and then read the sample, and decided I wouldn't even want to read it, have been many.
Ultimately, though, people have to buy, read, and continue to recommend a book. If it requires 4000 sales a day to stay in the top spot, that's 4000 NEW readers a day. An astounding thought, when I have trouble getting ONE new reader a day. And it takes forever to find one person who will actually post a review on Amazon.
Boggles the mind.
Jim wrote: "I thought it was interesting, shows what the lists are worth "I've read Mr. Grahl before. It must be exhausting being involved in all that hoopla.
Having a book 'debut at #9' on the list just makes no sense. That means huge numbers of people were found to buy the book. And that position on the list lasted a week, the book fell off the list forever - and the author gets to call himself a 'bestselling author' for eternity.
Money, lots and lots of money, shall I mortgage the house?
I think a lot of that is non-fiction books for business or politics; those authors buy their way onto the lists because it is literally worth the money to be able to put 'bestselling author' after their name.
Like getting a PhD, only without the bother of having to do hard work in a lab for five years.
I'm going back to writing. My stomach hurts. No way I can compete - nor do I want to. Ugh.
I wonder if anyone buys a 5-10 sec commercial on a prime time or during Fury-Klitschko rematch on national TV and put few (dozens) grands on it, would it result in thousands of sales? Does anyone have any info whether anything of a sort happened?
I think you'd have to ask how many of the viewers are also readers.Might be a bit like having a beef burger stand at a vegetarian convention.
Alicia wrote: "Doesn't all of this presuppose 'a good book'?The times when I've seen a book do this, an..."
Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes!
Why, oh why, are authors willing to spend money to promote their book yet don't pay for proper editing?
David wrote: "If think you'd have to ask how many of the viewers are also readers.Might be a bit like having a beef burger stand at a vegetarian convention."
-:) I don't believe it would that drastic. If for prime time - the statistics for average reading % of the population should be true, if for boxing - might be a bit different, but then you can put a bottle of Nemiroff on the book cover...
Alicia wrote: "An astounding thought, when I have trouble getting ONE new reader a day. And it takes forever to find one person who will actually post a review on Amazon."The number of reports I've read about indie releases selling 6 and 700 books a day truly worries me. Alright, I can well believe there are a few that sell that many, especially following interviews and the like, but nowhere near the numbers that are being reported.
The figures would be astounding for a year's sales - 219k sales in a year thereabouts). To my mind that must have led to more than a few trad deals - but reports of those are few and far between. Like I've said, I don't doubt that there are some that have sold that many, but not as many as reported.
But back to the point ... I think there are still too many ways to game the Amazon lists if you're willing to sacrifice any morals you may have. Personally, I don't think it would be worth risking, but that's me. Honest people will always need to work twice as hard for half the reward.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Why, oh why, are authors willing to spend money to promote their book yet don't pay for proper editing?..."I don't believe it to be true..Yet, some won't know how proper the editing was... Take me for example, I paid dearly for the editing, but Engl isn't my prime lingo, so I wouldn't know the quality of the editing, until I start getting ricochets, something like: "hey, you have a typo in the third and fourth word of the book"
If there were typos in the third and fourth word, I'd not be bothering with reading the second sentence.
G J (Gaff to my friends) wrote: "The number of reports I've read about indie releases selling 6 and 700 books a day truly worries me. Alright, I can well believe there are a few that sell that many, especially following interviews and the like, but nowhere near the numbers that are being reported.'..."That number of books a day would make you glaringly obvious in the Kindle lists :-)
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Why, oh why, are authors willing to spend money to promote their book yet don't pay for proper editing?"There's a huge secret out there: people can LEARN to self-edit. It is an amazing amount of work. In time spent, it is probably cheaper to pay an editor.
But that means you never learn to do it yourself properly.
It is even MORE work to self-edit. But it is the only way to improve. You must internalize every bit of advice in the books on editing, and apply it ruthlessly to your own writing.
People will say it can't be done, that you need external eyes. I'm not saying you disregard all feedback - no, you can never get enough feedback.
But every step of editing, from developmental, through copy, and down to proofreading the final copy, can be learned.
It is not an author's job to throw together ideas and send them out into the world for an editor to clean up. It is the author's job to learn to write.
Am I alone on this? Would you rather find out that a book you love is a collaborative effort, and that the author can't do that on his own?
My biases are showing. So far, there is ONE typo in Pride's Children (on the last page).
G J (Gaff to my friends) wrote: "if you're willing to sacrifice any morals you may have...."Which, when you write a book where the integrity of the characters, and what they are willing to do, is the central theme, makes no sense.
Imagine if Charlotte Bronte had bought her way onto the bestselling list-equivalent of her time (best use of a small inheritance?).
With all the will in the world, I don't think a writer can properly self edit. Perhaps if a manuscript is set aside for months, then self edited. Even so, writers read what thought they wrote, not what they wrote.Thankfully, I don't think any of 'our' authors struggle to get help with beta readers in our group.
I self edit as far as pacing and plotting, getting the structure in order. I be lost as far as proofreading, though, without the lovely people that beta read for me. However, I like to think there is less for them to spot with each new book.
David wrote: "I self edit as far as pacing and plotting, getting the structure in order. I be lost as far as proofreading, though, without the lovely people that beta read for me. However, I like to think there ..."*I'd*
Patti (baconater) wrote: "If there were typos in the third and fourth word, I'd not be bothering with reading the second sentence."Good that Mycrosoft Word autocorrect feature minimises such eventualities -:)
*Microsoft*Grammar nazi? Me?
No autocorrect here -:) Excellent showcasing. What r your rates?
Yeah. I really should charge.Jim said a few months back that authors pay...I can't recall. $100 per ten thousand words?
I really can't recall.
I just help out authors who write stuff I like. There's no pressure if it's free.
Nik wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "If there were typos in the third and fourth word, I'd not be bothering with reading the second sentence."Good that Mycrosoft Word autocorrect feature minimises such even..."
DO KNOT TRUST Autocorrect, for obvious reasons. For the same reason, after you have done the third read-through for typos, only then is the ms fit to be passed to your beta readers. Years ago, when I proof read technical documents for typos (before computers!!!) I would read aloud, BACKWARDS, to someone else, so nothing made sense, only the word. Very few mistakes got through. Raed an etnire snetnece and yuor brian shwos you waht you bleeive is there.
David wrote: "So, Imperfect Strangers stayed in the top 100 for 12 hours, although the screenshot I have says one day. "Am I safe in assuming that said screenshot is now your desktop wallpaper; that a 30x40 reprint now sits above the fireplace, and you've had a sticker made for the car window?
(If not, what's wrong with you?)
I don't trust autocorrect that much, but a bit more than I trust myself with spelling English words, as English is my 3-d/4-th language. And I can easily mistake Microsoft for Mycroft Holmes.I do hire editors though (human, or maybe semi-robotic?) on top of autocorrect. The cumulative effect is somewhat reasonable, although I'm sure not all the typos are eradicated..
Nik wrote: "although I'm sure not all the typos are eradicated.. ."So long as they're not prolific. I can usually find a dozen or more in mainstream bestsellers.
I'm saving the 30x40 print for a top ten, Pete ;~)
David wrote: "I'm saving the 30x40 print for a top ten, Pete ;~)"Oh, another week or so to go, then....
Don't think so. I've played my Bookbub card and, though sales are still healthy, the book is steadily slipping downward.Perhaps the next book. There's always the next book.
David wrote: "Don't think so. I've played my Bookbub card and, though sales are still healthy, the book is steadily slipping downward.Perhaps the next book. There's always the next book."
If sales are still healthy, and you got a decent boost, you may need to have this wave of readers read, review, and recommend - before you will see the decline reversed. Each time you should start from a slightly higher place. Best of luck.
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Imperfect Strangers (other topics)
This got me wondering, how many sales does it take to get to number one?
I don’t know the answer to that question, but I do know that 116 sales over the next twelve hours were not enough to stay at number 76, moreover the book dropped to number 120 in the chart rankings (a position I am still delighted with).
So, Imperfect Strangers stayed in the top 100 for 12 hours, although the screenshot I have says one day. The book currently at number 8 has been in the top 100 for 838 days, so how many copies has it sold, not only to get to number eight, but to stay there for over two years?