Quotes From Sources That Are Not Books

[M—]

Please, could the appropriate sources for Goodreads quotes be clarified? I'm confused about whether quotes from sources that are not books -- like movies, TV shows, or songs -- are appropriate for including in the Goodreads Quotes area.

I don't myself have a preference one way or the other, but I was tidying up some Laurie Halse Anderson quotes, and I stumbled upon a subset of three quotes from a movie which are attributed to the character speaking the quotes. I know that the quotes are not correct as they are currently set, but I'm not sure if they should be (a) deleted altogether, or (b) re-attributed to a more correct source.

The ever-helpful Librarian Manual does not offer advice on the topic of quotes. A few minutes of searching on Google brings up a couple of other Librarian message threads on the quotes topic, one a please fix this quote thread and one regarding personal quotes, but neither exactly answering the movie question. (Although the first example does touch on it, that particular problem dealt with quoting a movie that was actually quoting a book and the advocated solution was to use the original book as the source of the quote.)

These three quotes are from the movie Speak, which is based on the book of the same name. These same quotes are also listed in the Wikiquote page for this movie, so I am confidant that the quotes do exist in that movie. I just finished reading the book, so I am also pretty confidant that these quotes appear in only the movie and not the book.

Any advice you all have would be appreciated. Thanks much for your help!

ETA: And I've only just noticed the whole Librarian section on Quotes. I probably should have posted this there, shouldn't I.

[rivka, Former Moderator]

M— wrote: "I probably should have posted this there, shouldn't I."

Now you have. ;)


IMO, anything that is not also in the book should be deleted. They don't meet the notable person guideline, so unless there was some other reason to keep them, I would delete them.

[M—]

rivka wrote: Now you have. ;)

IMO, anything that is not also in the book should be deleted. They don't meet the notable person guideline, so..."

Mods can move threads! I am so impressed at learning this. Thank you!

And thank you as well for your advise. I'll go off and remove those movie quotes directly.

[rivka, Former Moderator]

Yes, mods can. ;D (And actually, you have the ability to move any thread you started, I think.)

Have fun!

[Fey]

Following on from this, quotes from songs shouldn't be included should they?

[MissJessie]

We had a discussion on this subject at some point in the past. I am a person who put in a few song quotes, so you can see which side I am on!

The fact is that song lyrics for anything even remotely popular are contained in the Fake Books (which are books by definition) and so therefore are in books.

Also, lots of song lyrics are discussed in books about the singer, composer, whatever. And I have found references also in just "plain books" which were in the end probably the inspiration for the song.

And if all the lyrics to songs were deleted, many many would go that are popular -- consider Bob Dylan for example. A poet and a composer.

[Fey]

So, song lyrics all stay as they are in the quotes? no requirement to prove that they have or have not been pubished in a book at any time?
I don't mind since it's less to faff about with, but I like to be clear on the policy :)

[rivka, Former Moderator]

Sath wrote: "Following on from this, quotes from songs shouldn't be included should they?"

We usually delete those.

[Fey]

Interesting two answers to the question! :)
Is it still in discussion and no set policy?

[mlady_rebecca]

It's policy that bound sheet music is considered a legitimate book, therefore lyrics that correspond to one of those books of bound sheet music should be considered legitimate. As to whether Librarians are distinguishing between valid and invalid lyrics, I'm not sure. I imagine there is some inconsistency there.

[rivka, Former Moderator]

Except that most lyrics are not written by the singer, and in at least some cases the songwriter fails to meet the "notable person" criterion.

[MissJessie]

Rivka, are you going to decide who is "notable?"

Or who?

Whoever looks at a quote?

Goodness, what incredible subjective decision making.

Or, who is not noteable to the editor, or librarian, may just be a case of you haven't heard of them? Or are all editors/librarians assumed to have some sort of superior knowledge/opinion on the noteability of everyone in the world?

I am not trying to be rude, please note facial expressions, but I can't believe anyone would assume such a superior opinion.

[mlady_rebecca]

rivka wrote: "Except that most lyrics are not written by the singer, and in at least some cases the songwriter fails to meet the "notable person" criterion."

But even in cases where the singer wrote the lyrics and he (or she) is considered "notable", lyrics have been deleted.

I just checked the one (bound sheet music) book I own that fits that criteria. Lyrics have definitely been deleted when they passed all the required criteria.

http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/...

The band name might not be as "notable" as the lead singer/songwriter, Jared Leto, who is also an actor. He's notable enough to fight off the paparazzi on a regular basis, and his name is mentioned in other books.

Beyond the songbook, they've also published 3 other books (photography, not sheet music), with 2 more in the works. All of those books are small press, and therefore not something that would be imported automatically. Speaking of that, I should add them.

I can't say I've tracked any other instances enough to tell you if quotes were incorrectly deleted.

[MissJessie]

Thank you m'lady for your simultaneous post.

I am glad I am not the only voice in the wilderness here.

A few months ago someone with superior knowledge decided some of my quotes were invalid (they were only Bob Dylan, after all, a person of no known notability) because they were lyrics.
Strangely, not all his lyrics were deleted at the time and are still there.

And I agree, small presses have great books and seem to me to be "notable" although perhaps not known by all and sundry.

I remember a discussion a few months back, don't know who said it (actually I do but I'm not going there) who wanted to delete a quote because they had never heard of the author. Googling revealed dozens of citations of a person famous in his field.

I am ranting. Sorry but the sheer nerve of some editors never ceases to amaze me.

[MissJessie]

And here is a question: I just looked up Elvis Presley's quote for the fun of it.

There is a quote from his song Burning Love.

He didn't write it. Dennis Linde did. Elvis of course made it famous.

Whose quote is that?

[Carolyn]

IMHO: I think that song lyrics are perfectly appropriate when they are associated with a book in the GR database. Since every user has the ability to manually enter books, that makes it a universally accessible feature. So, if a quote is 'attached' to a book here on GR, regardless of what kind of book, songbook, memoir, etc.) it should not be deleted.

However, the rest of the time, they should not be in GR, regardless of which singer sang the song or writer wrote it, which makes the whole 'notable' question moot. At base, GR is a books database, not a music database, so song lyrics don't belong in and of themselves.

mlady_rebecca said "I just checked the one (bound sheet music) book I own that fits that criteria. Lyrics have definitely been deleted when they passed all the required criteria."

MLady, in this case it is definitely librarian error and perhaps we need to clarify this policy and have it written up for the Librarian's manual. Unfortunately, errors do still occur, but by sending a clear message, hopefully we'll reduce the frequency.

MissJessie, the Elvis lyrics in the quotes section (and Bob Dylan, et al) only demonstrate that GR Librarian's haven't really wholesale done a cleanup on the quotes section. I myself rarely go in there, and when I do I often find multiple duplicate quotes, obvious misspellings and typos, incorrect attributions, and other mayhem.

Sounds like what we need to do is firmly define what is acceptable in the quotes area and get Otis & Co to sign off on a definite policy (since we may not reach a consensus here, as the firm opinions in this thread suggest), and write it up for the Manual. Then we sic Librarians on it to really clean that section up.

[MissJessie]

Well said Carolyn. I think that since Fake Books and bound books of music (as opposed to loose sheet music) abound, virtually every song however inane is on the GR database somewhere.

Rivka's contention, if I don't misquote her, is that publishing in a book is insufficient; the author has to be "notable".

I obviously disagree. And I can't imagine, as I ranted about earlier, who decides.

To connect another thread, laws are published in books; the Constitution is published in books, etc.

But most of them have no defined author (though some do) and were apparently being considered unworthy. I can't disagree more.

Rivka, if I have inadvertently misunderstood you or misquoted, I hope you will forgive me and also clue me in.

Cheers.

[rivka, Former Moderator]

It's not "my" contention -- it comes straight off the add-quote page. And notability is defined there pretty clearly.

[Carolyn]

MissJessie wrote: "Well said Carolyn. I think that since Fake Books and bound books of music (as opposed to loose sheet music) abound, virtually every song however inane is on the GR database somewhere."

Thanks for the compliment, but I don't necessarily agree that every song lyric is represented in the GR database 'somewhere'. I would be the first person to start deleting every song lyric not associated in the GR system with a book. The onus is on the person entering the quote to link it with the correct book. If it isn't linked - delete delete delete... = )

[Fey]

I'll stand by rivka, it's not a personal 'contention' its the goodreads guidelines that we're trying to follow on quotes. The quote itself doesn't have to come from a published book, but the person quoted must be notable, which is defined as someone who has published a secondary source material.

Which is why I was questioning the song lyrics, if someone has published a book, by the guidlines you can quote their lyrics even if they're not in a book. But if they've never published anything you can't quote their song lyrics.

[rivka, Former Moderator]

Sath wrote: "which is defined as someone who has published a secondary source material"

No, it is defined as someone about whom secondary source material has been published.

[Fey]

Ohohoho.. I missed that one! I totally thought that was have been publish not have been in a published work. Hmm. So in this case a song writer can be notable (and quotable) if someone has written specifically about him? Does it have to be in a published book or can they simply have a page on wikipedia about them?

[rivka, Former Moderator]

A (not brand new) Wikipedia page is generally considered sufficient.

[Fey]

Thanks for clarifying that, should make things much easier for me when helping to tidy up the quotes! much appreciated :)

[MissJessie]

LOL at Rivka. I can just see some crazed fan madly creating a Wiki page just to prove someone's "notability."

And 'contention' had connotations which were harsher than I intended. "Explanation" might have been better.

[Carolyn]

MissJessie wrote: "LOL at Rivka. I can just see some crazed fan madly creating a Wiki page just to prove someone's "notability..."

Except Wikipedia has some pretty stringently defined rules of 'notability', so they'll delete any that don't meet the rule. And if they do meet the rule, then they are fine, regardless of whether they were created by a 'crazed fan' or not.

[rivka, Former Moderator]

Right. Which is why the page shouldn't be brand new. There has to have been time for that process to be applied.

[Nicole]

I am a newbie and catching up on this thread so let me just make sure I understand what you guys were talking about here.

For example quotes from Dave Mathews Band songs can stay because there has been books written about them?

[Fey]

Nicole Marie wrote: "I am a newbie and catching up on this thread so let me just make sure I understand what you guys were talking about here.

For example quotes from Dave Mathews Band songs can stay because there ha..."

OOoooOOOOoh Dave Matthews Band!

Yes, I believe that would be correct.. I think :)

[Nicole]

Yeah they are my all time fav and very quotable so I felt it was a good example, lol.

[MissJessie]

Glad to hear it. I had a terrible time trying to quote Bob Dylan since there was a group who commented that his poetry is just song lyrics! I finally found a book quoting the stuff I liked, but it was such a pain in the rear.

[Brittany]

So what do we do with these?

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/...
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/...
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/...

They seem to be only from the movies for the 1st and third ones and a TV show for the second.

[Paula]

They go

[Brittany]

Okay thanks!

[Elisabeth]

I think this question probably belongs here. I've noticed that there are a lot of quotes on Goodreads from various types of adaptations, but attributed to the author of the original work. For instance, there's a lot of stuff from Winnie-the-Pooh cartoons which A.A. Milne definitely did not write, attributed to Milne. And there's song lyrics from the musical version of Les Miserables attributed to Victor Hugo, not the songwriters of the show. What should be done about things like that?

[rivka, Former Moderator]

In general, their sources are not "notable", so they should be deleted. There are exceptions, I'm sure.