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DISCUSSION OPEN!--2016 GROUP READ 1 - WHITE NOISE (BOWIE MEMORIAL GROUP READ) - 26 FEB 16
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Kids are like that. My son was angry with his father because I need to try a new diet to lose weight. So my first night, my husband was teasing me and trying to steal my food. The teen blasted him. This novel just hits on life. American family crazy normal life.
I was watching season 4 of House of Cards. (the kevin spacey one), in an episode a person who was doing things with internet algorithms told the FBI that it was just White Noise. By the way it was said made me wonder....or maybe I am thinking too much about the data stream....
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When I was doing a search for it, I also came across lots of links for noise machines. Kind of a fascinating phenomenon that we humans buy machines that create meaningless-but-constant noise in order to overpower other noises/distractions (due to allergies in our house, we have an air purifier we run at night which is loud enough that it has the same effect--I now have trouble sleeping without that noise).
Any DeLillo fans care to comment on how this book differs from his other or whether more recent work shares similar approaches or themes?
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I had the very same experience. It got to the point where I could hear Delillo narrating my daily adventures through the local shopping mall. The book made me hyperaware of all the little modern day ironies which surround us.
I had one moment, too, where a comedian was on tv joking about how the end of the world was nigh due to environmental collapse, and nobody was paying attention - at which point he threw to a commercial break, and I changed the channel. I felt like a scene in the book.
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I'm still only on page 165. I've read some of the comments here, but am being a bit careful, as I want to avoid spoilers, so please forgive me if someone has already menti..."
Yay! You found the Blackstar reference I was talking about :)
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Re..."
I really liked those "This is the point of Babette" lines. It shows just how self-absorbed Gladney really is. Babette exists for her benefits to him personally. I must say, I've met many men like that! ;)
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"The others who spend their lives believing that we still bel..."
That passage really hit me too. Particularly when I came across "The Darwin Ghost Nun". Living in the tropics in the middle of a heatwave, I rarely see people covering up their bodies to a great extent, but I passed a nun in a shopping centre (again, very appropriately) wearing an entirely white get up, robes complete with full wimple. Her hair was white, her skin was white, her eyes very pale blue - she seemed so out of context! I got to wondering why the outfit was so important to her, and if she did it for herself or for the comfort she believed she could give to others.
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I empathised the most with Heinrich. You really can't blame him for being the person most likely to end up in a bell tower with an automatic weapon.
My favourite line? "We're a silver, gleaming death machine!" (This would make a fabulous band name).
Two questions though:
1) Why does Winnie always run away?
2) The repeated words, "It's obvious" (particularly from Murray, but others use it too). What's that all about?
Well....it is just obvious. Right. It is all right there in front of us. So obvious we don't even see it. :)I am still thinking about this book. Little things happen, interactions with people that make me reflect upon what I have read.
Oh and by the way, I was horrified when Jack left Murray alone with the children. For a paragraph or two my heart was in my throat.
Marc wrote: "I saw that episode, too, Jennifer, but didn't make the connection! Kind of an interesting assortment of definitions for "white noise".When I was doing a search for it, I also came across lots of ..."
This is the only book I have read by him. Does anyone have any other suggestions? The bar has been set rather high..
I use a white noise fan machine to sleep. It is a compromise. For me, I need the noise. Do any of you go camping and then can't sleep because there is no back ground noise? I wonder how our brains have been re-wired...
Mod
I'm so glad you raised that conversation about rain. I just started reading One Rainy Day in May, and there is a young character, Xanther, who cannot still her mind from constantly asking questions (like many people I know who are very intelligent yet very socially awkward - often either on the autism spectrum, or dealing with some other form of "disorder"). The book begins with her sitting silently in the car while her mind screams question after question at her - how many rain drops are there? Well what IS a drop of rain then? Is it possible it's all water with drops of air in it..? etc etc. She works herself up past the point of teeth grinding and cuticle picking, to hyperventilating and sometimes to the point of epileptic seizure.
While she is similar to Heinrich in that she considers these questions, she suffers from the lack of any solid answers to ground her. Heinrich on the other hand seems to quite happily accept that some questions only raise more questions, and is quite content to cede to nihilism.
Sorry my comments are a bit scattered here, as I've only just had the chance to jump in on the discussion, and I want to talk about all of it at once - now! now! now!
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Some of the theories that Murray articulates seem FAR from obvious to me!
Why were you afraid of Murray being alone with the children? That didn't even register with me.
Ruby wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Well....it is just obvious. Right. It is all right there in front of us. So obvious we don't even see it. :)."Some of the theories that Murray articulates seem FAR from obvious t..."
I never quite trusted Murray. Maybe because I grew up with older adults that were kinda like him...I didn't trust them either. I think that he made Jack question himself. Jack was genuinely happy before Murray showed up. And he also had a weird thing for Babette.
Frankly, he skeeved me out.
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I suspect we'd eventually adjust were the sound machine (or, air purifier in my case) removed for a long enough time.
Just came across an old Slate Audio Book Club "White Noise" Podcast (50 min.). Pretty interesting because one of the reviewers loved the book and one didn't, so there's an interesting dialogue. Criticism seems to revolve around the kind of continual "robotic/flat" way the characters speak, satire taken too extreme, etc. Libra gets mentioned in the podcast and sounds like another good one (centers around the JFK assassination, which is intriguing because I just read a short story by Ballard about the same event... [insert elevator music here while I try to quickly find the story and post it... here]).
I definitely think there's a link between Heinrich and Xanther (although I gave up on that book after 300 pgs.). Heinrich has a natural curiosity and seems to enjoy undermining any definitive answers (other than the ones he espouses).
You know, it just occurred to me that "The Most Photographed Barn" might be a real place, but further south, in the Smoky Mountains. Since I've now lived in Florida 30 years, I must have taken more than 50 roadtrips through the Smokies to go visit my parents back in Southern Illinois. All those years, for like over 100 miles you have those billboards--"See Rock City". So, one time, my kids and I were doing the drive alone, so instead of barrelling through the mountains we decided to "See Rock City" and stay there for the night to see what all the fuss was. We stayed in this weird little cottage filled motel complex which was actually made of rocks, which was actually pretty cool and rustic--with a fireplace and all, and pretty cheap! We never found the barn you always see in the ad, but we came across some weird kitschy cave tour that featured statues of gnomes as "miners" with gaudy colored lighting like you see in all those US 1960's nature tourist traps. And, far in the distance, a sheer cliff called "Lover's Leap", which I didn't go near, due to my vertigo, and spent 15 minutes of heart-pounding agony while my almost grown children went off to explore it!Anyone ever been there? I swear it's the real "Barn' thing..
Tracy wrote: "You know, it just occurred to me that "The Most Photographed Barn" might be a real place, but further south, in the Smoky Mountains. Since I've now lived in Florida 30 years, I must have taken more..."I'll do you one or two better. There was an entire time in the 50's and 60's where there were 'The Most Photographed' fill-in-the-blank 'things' across the USA. The Midwest/Upper Midwest to Florida tourist trap highways were choked at one time or another with Sights to See. Rock City and Merimec Caverns were two of the last Biggies. Of course there was/is Pigeon Forge Tennessee too. From Biggest Alligator in Captivity to White Fence Farms (an Illinois thing) there were roadside signs all over the place. You could tour a working tobacco farm and get free samples! Yeah Camels and Marlboro's for everyone!
There are still references in some esoteric literature about the most photographed Lighthouse. I don't remember which one it was along the East Coast of the US, but it go that 'title'.
New Hampshire had a barn that they laid claim to as being the most photographed. I've got an old Kodachrome slide from my Grandfather around here somewhere of 'that' barn. He also photographed the billboard advertising it. It was near the Old Man of the Mountain in the White Mountains. But it was one of many ranging from Canada to Northern Georgia and Alabama that claimed the crown. I've seen some of them and have photos of others.
What's interesting is that Disneyland and Disneyworld at one time were the leading sales location for Film. Anywhere. Ever.
But this is all a digression I suppose. But it relates to many elements in the story. I'll try to be brief-errr in my next few post this weekend.!&*$@#
Two quick comments/question as I re join the discussion (work sucks sometimes if you haven't noticed! There is no more articulate phrase available). The title 'White Noise' is a synonym in late 20th century American English vernacular for 'static'. Static as in stasis or unchanging and plain unimportant life. As the culture in the US began to recognize and evolve to being more educated and scientifically aware the adoption of 'technospeak' became popular. Remember everybody and their 'paradigm shift'? White Noise and being 'in the Noise' were daily catchphrases.
So, the first question becomes: "Is everything in the story except for 'The Airborne Toxic Event' just a diversion and background story to lend importance to the events of the 'Event'? Is the last third of the book just a denouement and a return to the fuzzy normalcy of daily life. Or in the metalanguage of this book, "Now we return you to regularly scheduled programming".
The second question is about Dylar. This potentially miracle drug parallels another American cultural phenomenon. Or it sort of predicts or relays the underground knowledge of what would become known by its brand name; Prozac. By the early 1980's the existence of a new category of psychiatric medications was creeping into the general consciousness. While not available yet, the extensive trials and increasing wide spread journalism regarding them was creating excitement and concern. Not long after White Noise was published, Prozac became available by prescription. The rest is history.
Did DeLillo draw as heavily on knowledge about the Prozac experiments as it appears or was his writing from just listening to the 'buzz' in the streets or coffeeshops about the new miracle just around the corner and what it might mean to society/culture?
The whole Dylar = Prozac is fascinating . (Spoken like Spock). It makes sense, society is a bunch of pill popping fiends now. I think Murray was the protagonist if this novel really had one. Jack was Happy. Then comes Murray (kinda like the Murray in The Mary Tyler Moore show, that is how I saw him), and Jack begins to question everything. Even his Babette , before the big reveal. That was unexpected. Shocking. I felt bad for Babette.
Mod
http://www.shmoop.com/white-noise/the-most-photographed-barn-in-america-symbol.html
Kind of an interesting moniker for anything--NOT biggest, tallest, etc. But most photographed, which does seem like it would be somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like maybe asking someone if they've ever visited the Most Visited Website (people might then click on the link and eventually make it the most visited website). I keep wondering whether DeLillo was influenced by or read The Society of the Spectacle or Simulacra and Simulation.
I'm kind of melding the discussion of white noise and prozac together here, but this book really hits on the symbolic/virtual nature much of our lives have taken on (most of us don't hunt for or grow our own food--we literally work for a symbol we can then exchange for the goods we need/want). We have "luxury" time to spend on things like Goodreads discussions, but our individual/collective purpose is less defined/certain. It creates a kind of void that our species feels it needs to fill with distraction, entertainment... white noise. It's like we're disassociated from ourselves. Too much speculation/projection on my part?
Interesting take on Murray, Jennifer--you see his introduction and ideas/questioning as triggering Jack's unhappiness? I need to mull that one over. I thought the airborne toxic event really seemed to do a number on Jack because it forced him to confront his fear of death by making it something tangible and growing inside him--something he could no longer ignore.
I feel that Murray helped push him over the proverbial edge. The Airborne Toxic Event made us all question ourselves. I just love the many images from that.
Jennifer wrote: "The whole Dylar = Prozac is fascinating . (Spoken like Spock). It makes sense, society is a bunch of pill popping fiends now. I think Murray was the protagonist if this novel really had one. Jack..."
Or is Murray a type of antagonist? A 'foil' even for Jack to bounce things off of outloud? Is Murray an embodiment of or speaker of a Freudian flavored zeitgeist?
While the Murray character is a topic, how about the anti-Semitism wrapped up in this character?What did the author intend with the 'code' phrases and framing of this element of the story? Or was it incidental to things DeLillo observed in the real world and it is included as a matter of fact of certain periods and social settings of the time frame of the works setting?
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http://www.shmoop.com/white-noise/the......"
That's a great summary. I love the idea that you could set up these signs saying "Most Photographed Whatever", and it becomes exactly that. The way the signs shape our perception of reality is a fascinating thing to think about. It actually reminded me a little of The Illuminatus! Trilogy, when The Midget puts up signs in a store saying, "Spitting is strictly prohibited, signed The Mgt". It probably never occurred to anyone to spit in the store before, but this "official" sign makes people feel like that's a real possibility!
This is probably tangental (I hope) to the "Barn" discussion. Last night I watched this interesting doc called HOW TO SELL A BANKSY. See, this London cool guy (you could tell by his clothes and cut) went in the middle of the night and took down a "public installation" as apparently artistically valuable graffiti is now called--don't you love this modern world? Of a Banksy off a bridge...It was on paper. It was one with the 3 weird girly-looking polizia in riot gear, with yellow 70's smiley faces , underwritten with the words "Have A Nice Day."
So, of course the guy half ruins it taking it down and keeping it on top of a wardrobe, finally takes it to some sort of art preservationist who transfers it onto some sort of linen to preserve the remaining fragments, then frames it. Then tries to sell it as a "Genuine Banksy".
The rest of the movie is about him attempting to get authentification , a price, and most importantly, an audience, for his piece of Banksy. It is definitely photographed many times, including, continuously by the documentary, which apparently was part of the sales pitch. The cool guy is alternately booed as a thief and praised as a preservationist.
One funny detail is that Banksy's team of authentifiers are called "Pest Control".
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Both The World's Most Photographed Barn and the Banksy story make me think of hyperreality (loosely, the blending of the real and virtual to the extent they are indistinguishable; or, the real chasing after a virtual reality that's not even possible... think young girls trying to imitate fashion models whose airbrushed/photoshopped images are not physically possible).
Are we lost in the static?If not the 'Airborne Toxic Event' hasn't been discussed much at all. It was ironic/serendipitous/providential or similar that this book was published within weeks (days ?) of the Bhopal crisis in India.
But I have this feeling that it was eerily similar to Three Mile Island. While TMI was a nuclear power plant and the ATE was chemical in nature, the chaos in the book was descriptive of what many people went through with TMI. Evacuations to all but random locations that weren't any safer than staying at home, erroneous information from official sources, self promoted experts (a number of whom were better than the officials), health examinations and record keeping for those 'exposes' and other similarities.
And then life was back to 'normal'. Or was it? When I visited TMI around 5 years after the incident, the radiation detectors at the visitors center were marked as Non-Functioning. Or they were they turned off to prevent concern? Or did they ever work in the first place? Think about the implications of having a visitor center for a disaster. In all fairness the Center was there before the episode. But was it continued to ease public worry?
I continue to be interested if other readers of this book think of the ATE as the center of the story or merely an interlude?
I found ATE to be the center, the change all. The game changer. Are we spending our lives wandering around in confusion? There is an Indian film called The Bophal Express, that is based in that tragedy. I can say from personal experience, as I traveled between south and north India multiple times, one the the stations we passed through or stopped was in Bophal. Every single time, I thought about that event. And I wondered about the people that live there.
I think I mentioned earlier in the thread about the Pepcon Rocket Fuel plant that exploded not far from our house, when I was a teenager. I remember watching the large black cloud, wondering if the other plants around it were going to catch on fire (it was located in an industrial area, that was not far from homes and schools) , wondering if we would have to evacuate. We were glued to the TV, like the family was in the book.
I can't do it. 60 pages in, it's not funny, it's not interesting, it's not even weird. I give up.Nice try, Marc, trying to convince me it's that other kind of post-modern, but it's pretty much just post-modern...
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Nice try, Marc, trying to convince me it's that other kind of post-modern, but it's pretty much ju..."
Well, you gave it a try. And humor is one of those things that is pretty subjective, especially if you're expecting to find something funny and it isn't. Do you generally like satire?
CD & Jennifer: Both your comments on the ATE are much appreciated. I think it does merit more attention than our discussion has given it so far. And it seems eerie how relevant it was to both previous disasters and subsequent ones (Chernobyl also occurred a year or two after this was published if I'm not mistaken). It seems like a central part of the story but not necessarily the center of the story, to me. But then one of the criticisms of this book is it's lack of plot--does it have a center at all? Is it all "interlude" to a degree?
I love satire. I just don't seem to be able to understand po-mo :-(
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Sounded like you were just bored!
Well, I was (it took me two weeks of on-and-off reading to get that far), but I put that down to a lack of understanding. It's hard to keep interested in a book that isn't communicating with you!
Derek wrote: "I can't do it. 60 pages in, it's not funny, it's not interesting, it's not even weird. I give up.Nice try, Marc, trying to convince me it's that other kind of post-modern, but it's pretty much ju..."
Derek: I like satire a lot, and this definitely is, but it's not the kind of laugh out loud, absurd kind of humor that gives you a good rush. At least, it didn't to me--it's more like dry, academic humor that has a very slow fuse. I may have felt a little like you that I was expecting more over the top, overt humor. But, in the end, I was glad I read it.
I have a sneaking suspicion the writer didn't want a singular event to be the most significant plot line in the story. Seems to me he was focusing in on the general tendencies of modern life both great and small--big public disasters, personal ones like the kid crossing the dangerous road, and the mind-numbing stuff of grocery shopping and ads.
Derek wrote: "I can't do it. 60 pages in, it's not funny, it's not interesting, it's not even weird. I give up.Nice try, Marc, trying to convince me it's that other kind of post-modern, but it's pretty much ju..."
Bummer Derek. Sorry it didn't work for you.
Mod
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with Jutta Brettschneider MS OTR/L and GCFP
You will learn how to be upright without straining yourself!
Explore how to sit, stand and walk and be refreshed at the end of the day! You will work with gentle movements in lying, sitting and standing, learn about postural habits and become more skillful in your uprightness!
When: April 30th, 3-6pm
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Fee: US $ 40 – mats available, just wear comfortable clothes
Registration at upcoming events under www.themovementclinic.org or mail a check to:
The Movement Clinic, 7100 Baltimore Ave, Suite 207
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Marc wrote: "Just this morning, on a nearby neighborhood list was a posting for a class that Babette could be teaching:"Posture is Fun – A Feldenkrais workshop
with Jutta Brettschneider MS OTR/L and GCFP
Yo..."
OMG
I wonder if she looks like Babette. She would so teach that class!
Did you guys see on the news about the Airborne Toxic event in Texas yesterday? People were told to stay inside their houses with windows closed. But really....would that protect you?
It depends what the Toxic event is. If it's particulate smog, yes it'll help. If it's a sulfur dioxide release... well, at least it keeps the bodies from clogging the streets :-((but no, I didn't see anything about Texas—all that's on my news for the last couple of days, even on the BBC, is the Fort McMurray wildfire).
I will find the story and post it. It was petroleum products and pesticides that were burning. The fires in Canada are heart breaking. We have been surrounded by wild fires here. It could be a portent for our summer.
Jennifer wrote: "We have been surrounded by wild fires here."I was going to ask, because Fort McMurray is only the worst. It's all across Western Canada, so I expected you wouldn't be any better off.
Derek wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "We have been surrounded by wild fires here."I was going to ask, because Fort McMurray is only the worst. It's all across Western Canada, so I expected you wouldn't be any better ..."
There are only two roads out...one goes to Canada and the other to Anchorage. I suppose one could drive the Dalton and head further into the Arctic....so 3.....
Here is the link to the most recent airborne toxic event:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-war...
Ugh. 20 miles straight down I-10 from my nephew's place in Katy. Fortunately, they're probably upwind of the fire.
Derek wrote: "Ugh. 20 miles straight down I-10 from my nephew's place in Katy. Fortunately, they're probably upwind of the fire."Wow, hope they are ok and the men in the Mylar don't show up at their door.
Every time I see a commercial about an anti-depressant the word Dylar is whispered in my head.
Mod
Just finished JG Ballard's Millennium People and this struck me as a book very much in the same vein as White Noise. Was curious to see if others had read it and found similarities between the two books, or the two authors for that matter... ?
With the release of Don D.'s new book, it seems he's back in the news and so is White Noise:
White Noise is an Outsider's Look inside Small-Town America
(the article outlines some strong parallels with Brave New World)
Marc wrote: "Every one's family surrived the wildfires and airborne toxic events, yes?!!Just finished JG Ballard's Millennium People and this struck me as a book very much in the same vein as ..."
I ordered his new book. I hope I enjoy it.
Mod
I hope you do, too! Let us know how it turns out.
Chaos Reading
Books mentioned in this topic
Millennium People (other topics)Brave New World (other topics)
Millennium People (other topics)
The Illuminatus! Trilogy (other topics)
The Society of the Spectacle (other topics)
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This book seems to capture that sort of parent-child dynamic very well. I wonder how your son would characterize your discussions (arguing to argue or genuinely disagreeing most of the time).
And the children are constantly trying to correct their parents habits/food choices/etc. (they're very protective--it's the daughter that first notices Babette is taking mysterious pills).