Emma should this and Emma should that...

[[deleted user]]

Just because I WAS an English major doesn't mean I have to follow the rules. Truth be told a lot of those art classes (such as writing), it's a joke. They try to teach those who can't write how to write, and you can't teach people how to express well - you're either born with it or you're not so.. I didn't really learn anything from those classes.

I might be capable of writing properly but it doesn't mean it's natural to me. You fight for equality right? Fight for non oppressive? Truth be told, if you try to take away words - because you find them derogatory, it's a form of oppression... Have you ever read the book 1984? That's what will happen when you take away words. If the words dude and chick offends you Ana, I'm sorry but you should ask yourself... why does it offend you so much? Did something happen where those words for whatever reason is triggering something? Because I don't think it's universally offensive. I'm just wondering, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm curious about people and why individuals are the way that they are.

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Ty wrote: "Strong women or alpha females want to deal with those who can handle them. The only type of female that date those male feminist types are bullying types where they just want someone to push around, they don't want a relationship that's equal. "

But that's still...wrong. Being in a relationship with a feminist male would most likely lead to the exact opposite of what you are stating. Also, why should that woman exert her inner bully with a feminist male and push him around? That is simply not true. As I said, I do not want to get too personal, but I'll just say this - it did not work that way for me.
To be honest, I am not *that* horribly offended by the use of those words. I think I already told you that I love my slang in the right moment and place (i.e., 'homegirl' and its masculine version 'homeboy', along with plenty of other stuff, and English is not my mother tongue so I actually had to go out of my way to learn them!). I do know that some people, however, could and will take offence if I use such words in the wrong context. Check the meaning of 'chick' in the online Cambridge dictionary and you will realise that, without elaborating on the reasons, it is a tricky word. For me, it's all about context. A feminist book club might not be the right place, as you may or may not discover with regard to these words. But I am not for opressing anybody, and there are bigger battles.
I have read 1984 indeed! :D I hope we're all more open-minded than that.

[James]

Ty wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Ash wrote: "James wrote: "Because she has the platform to speak about it that's why... To tell you the truth it really shouldn't be a actress that speaks to ..."

Dude believe me I completely get that, but the trouble is that is all it is. There actually real world issues that need to be talked about and this kind of fluffy warm fuzzy really gets in the way of that. What I'm saying is its a waste and more over it allows real issues to be swept under the rug and not talked about.

[James]

Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that the simple fact that she is as well known as she is and is advocating for this is def..."
I am a minority by the way even though that shouldn't matter. I think that's a bad argument to make. You can't have a voice unless your a minority
Is that what your saying? I hate racial politics. I'm no even going to ask what minority you are because everyone is a individual. Wait are you saying women as a gender are a minority...they are not.

[Jing Wen]

Lol Kodak. Your posts are always such a refreshment :D

I'll join the fray as soon as I get off the road. Cheers!!

[[deleted user]]

BTW Emma is not reading this thread or I wouldn't write what I wrote lol. I'm good at recognizing personality types. If you're able to recognize personality types, you can predict behavior. And anyway, even if she read what I wrote she won't care. The words I chose to describe her like clingy, introverted, intelligent, control freak, aggressive... they're not offensive and if you play it like they're so bad, I think that's more insulting, what if she is actually what I'm describing (she is). It's like you're saying something is wrong with those traits.

I've been dating that personality for as long as I can remember (I'm 30 so you can only imagine how many) so obviously don't hate those traits or find anything wrong with them but I get frustrated. When I fight with my exes, I yell "you're being a chick brain, not logical -you don't make sense". The reply is "SO WHAT. I know I'm not logical. SO WHAT if I have a chick brain?"

And it isn't like the girls don't yell out stereotypes at me, like "the almighty know it all male brain, arguing with a mentally ill person for 2 hours who is delusional and won't see things from a realistic perspective". I would tell them I wasn't aware the person was mentally ill, lol I thought they were capable of rational thought.

My point is, both parties play out SOME gender stereotypes and we're OKAY WITH IT. If that's who you are, that's who you are. I think Emma's thing is trying to EMPOWER women, not change men because you'll never be able to change someone's nature. I figure strong women have the abilities to say "SO WHAT" and not be shaken so easily, or demand to be babied. Instead of playing the victim, you fight back.

[James]

Kodak wrote: "If I could fly, was fluffy, and also cute... Then a chick I am!

Alas, I am none of the above :'D"

Nothing wrong with warm fluffy, fuzzy things...baby ducks are my favorite.

[James]

Ty wrote: "BTW Emma is not reading this thread or I wouldn't write what I wrote lol. I'm good at recognizing personality types. If you're able to recognize personality types, you can predict behavior. And any..."

You know man, I do like the points that you're making and I'm amused at the angle that you approach it with. You're Like Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[James]

James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that the simple fact that she is as well known as she is and is advocating f..."
Wait Sarah Did you actually compare women to African American slavery? wow, I kind of think that's way out of line and really extreme. Could you elaborate on that that point so that i could understand it better?

[[deleted user]]

Shaiyan wrote: "Ty, I do not know you personally but after reading your posts here, I suggest you re evaluate your strategy to make your point. I feel aggression in your words, which is never a good idea while dis..."

I never said the gender of a person dictates their ability to succeed. Success depends on talent traits (not gender). Talent traits are creativity - the ability the express well. Intelligence - the ability to analyze well. Charisma - social intelligence. Athletic ability (self explanatory).

For example, when you talk, people can tell you don't analyze since none of your statements are making any kind of point - it's like mindless sentences. Like that gender statement is kind of weird since I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Then you say how I described Emma was such an awful way of describing her yet you turn around and say you get along with people like that lol. C'mon that basically implies that you either agree with my description or you took in the fact that I said "you know what type likes you based on dating history", and you're scared she's reading this (she's not).

[James]

Ty wrote: "Shaiyan wrote: "Ty, I do not know you personally but after reading your posts here, I suggest you re evaluate your strategy to make your point. I feel aggression in your words, which is never a goo..."

hahaha

[[deleted user]]

Ana wrote: "Ty wrote: "Strong women or alpha females want to deal with those who can handle them. The only type of female that date those male feminist types are bullying types where they just want someone to ..."

Oh Ana, Ana, Ana... "Being in a relationship with a feminist male would most likely lead to the exact opposite of what you are stating", You see how this speaks in hypothetical? That means you've never dated one now have you? Hm... Why? SEE?

Also I'm not saying women have to become bullies to date a male feminist, I'm saying the ones who are ATTRACTED to the personality are most likely bullies. You know how everyone (regardless of gender) have different traits. Some women can be evil and some women are not evil. Well some women can be bullies and enjoy power while other women enjoy equal giving/receiving in a relationship.

Male feminist TYPES don't challenge women much, they sit there passively and go along with whatever is being said whether or not they disagree. They're not types that are emotionally fulfilling for women who are looking for someone to stimulate them, stimulate their minds. Let's be real - don't I make you think? Don't I make you feel? Sometimes good, sometimes bad. Has any male feminist provoke that in you? Hm?...

[James]

Ty wrote: "Ana wrote: "Ty wrote: "Strong women or alpha females want to deal with those who can handle them. The only type of female that date those male feminist types are bullying types where they just want..."

Ty wrote: "Ana wrote: "Ty wrote: "Strong women or alpha females want to deal with those who can handle them. The only type of female that date those male feminist types are bullying types where they just want..."

This is very true Ana, listen to the man.

[[deleted user]]

Kodak wrote: "If I could fly, was fluffy, and also cute... Then a chick I am!

Alas, I am none of the above :'D"

Well you are pretty cute, but if you're referring to chickens, chickens can't fly - whether it's a baby chick or a full grown hen or rooster, none of them can fly.

[[deleted user]]

James wrote: "Ty wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Ash wrote: "James wrote: "Because she has the platform to speak about it that's why... To tell you the truth it really shouldn't be a actress that..."

To be honest, I think she got suckered into this and she's just too stubborn to walk out. I think a part of her keeping this up is also because of those who yell at her for it - Watson types don't react to bullying very well. I don't think she thinks this is going to change the world

[Jo, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Ty wrote: "To be honest, I think she got suckered into this and she's just too stubborn to walk out. I think a part of her keeping this up is also because of those who yell at her for it - Watson types don't react to bullying very well. I don't think she thinks this is going to change the world"

Do you really think Emma wants out? I mean if she wanted she could just stop or gradually detach herself from it by posting less and less about it?
Instead she has organised the worlds largest book club and attended one of the biggest speaking events (Davos) that happens every year. what about her upcoming Q&A with Gloria Steinem? or her Interview with Malala?

If I wanted out of something, I certainly wouldn't be organising endless events like those mentioned above.

[Stefania]

Ty wrote: "I didn't read the whole women turning down male feminist thing..."

Hey, Ty! I happen to be exactly the type of girl you assume would never date a male feminist. Yes, I tend to be introvert(sometimes I may also appear a little aloof), I'm definitely bookish, I consider myself quite clever and I am a bit of a freak control... And you know what? I dated many male feminist. And, no, Ty they are not weak. Just because he agrees with me on gender equality (I would actually never date a guy who doesn't) it doesn't mean that we have to agree on every topic or that he has to agree with everything I say! So I really can't understand the link between being a male feminist and being weak...

Moreover you look just like the kind of "dude" who divide women in categories based on stereotypes. You seem to have such a deep knowledge of women, don't you Ty? So deep actually that you feel entitle to judge, or better, to describe the personality of a girl you don't even know (yes I'm talking about Emma Watson) God knows on what basis! Sorry but I really can't understand you, you really seem to base all your life on stereotypes... But that's only my opinion after all...

[Eva]

Shaiyan wrote: "I believe there is a counter petition also, in case reporting doesn't work.
Even though it's troll petition, it did actually get me thinking. Every now and then I'm seeing reports of these refugee..."


Hi - I am living in Germany an currently whitnessing the refugee crisis - and I completey agree: We need much better eduaction (not only signs) to achieve real integration. In Norway, there are sex eduaction courses for refugees. Unfortunately, we dont have anything like that in Germany (yet).

Here an article about the classes in Norway: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/wor...

[Sarah]

James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that the simple fact that she is as well known as she is and i..."
Ok, I did not mean to say you aren't a minority, I meant you are not THIS minority which I realize was a premature assumption to make. If you are a woman please let me know. I wonder if you actually know what the term minority means because, once again, your assertion that woman aren't one is completely false. Nowhere did I say anything about slavery, once again you inferring, I was simply using a more widely regarded pair of dissociated groups to hopefully illustrate how insane that comment seemed. If that's all you were able to take from what I had to say then I'm done explaining.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

This conversation is becoming a bit too heated and if it continues, perhaps I'm more strict than the other mods, but I will consider shutting it down.

Ty, you are coming awfully close to breaking Goodreads policy. I understand that there needs to be some more leeway when it comes to celebrities, as we all are wont to make assumptions and think we know more about them than we really do. But please remember that Emma Watson is a member on this website, and while she is very busy and may not be actively reading these posts in real time, there is a good chance she will see them, especially given her name is in the title of the thread!

Regardless of a person's status in this book club, be it the group creator, moderators, or members, we will not tolerate derogatory statements from people. Whether or not Emma or whoever else you are talking about are offended, this is not the culture that we are wishing to foster here. This is, foremost, a book club. These debates are secondary, and while they are an important part of the group, if they are getting aggressive or disrespectful, I am prepared to lock threads that go south like this. So there's your warning.

That all being said, I will date feminist men exclusively, because a feminist man is simply one who treats women as equal. It has nothing to do with weakness. It is simply about respect and the intelligence to know what feminist actually means. And in case you haven't gotten this from my post(s), I don't take crap from anyone. So Ty, your assumptions about an entire demographic of people is unequivocally flawed.

[Tim]

James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Ash wrote: "James wrote: "Because she has the platform to speak about it that's why... To tell you the truth it really shouldn't be a actress that speaks to the
United N..."

I feel like, despite your completely prickish and unexplained claim that somehow all the bad press feminism recieves is deserved, you're not addressing my point. Equality is not rocket science, or some big ladder career in business; you don't need to "work" your way up in order to be taken seriously; in fact, it's a fallacy to suggest you need that, because if we were to follow that logic, we'd have to take the ideology someone like Hitler or Caiden Cowger more seriously because Hitler was in politics for a long time and Caiden Cowger (who, for the record, is a blatant fascist) has been hosting a radio show since (I believe) before or around the same time as Emma's first speech on feminism. As for the UN, I personally believe they just want to maintain the status quo and only change it if they must, but still in a very slow manner (much like all governments we have today). With that said, I think they mainly allowed Emma her position to appease feminists more, rather than actually provoking activism (just like they did with Anita Sarkeesian, though I find her not to be a decent spokesperson for feminism even though I agree wit hthe general view that media and the gaming community aren't as welcoming to women as they shuld be). However, does any of that entail her position can't be used for good? No, nor does it invalidate what she has to say. I made my example of George Carlin, who, in spite of the fact that he was admittedly older than Emma, was a high school dropout, but still had perfectly sound points of criticism towards our society, systemic sexism being one of them, NOT to be confused with legal sexism, which I know to be a jig all anti-feminists dance at one point or another. Your claims on feminism seem very hollow as well. "There are actual real world issues that need to be talked about". Yes, indeed there are; wage inequality, sexual harassment, blaming victims of sexual harassment or even rape, women being made afraid of going outside at night wearing whatever they want, the phenomenon of consent not being made clear to young men. Those all sound like real problems. If you're referring to the 3rd world where women lack the most basic of human rights, then all you're doing is saying "Look at them, they don't have basic rights. You have basic rights, so stop complaining."

And as to you, Ty... grow up, would you kindly? I'm glad you're at least acknowledging to an extent that feminism seeks to empower women, but everything else you've said so far is Onision-level of immature. And I hate to be playing the "You both disagree with me, ergo, you're just mates stroking each other." but I'm getting a lot of that from you and James (the one with the bunny profile pic, though the James with the blank profile pic also seems to be doing this).

[James]

Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that the simple fact that she is as well known a..."

I am Jewish and my family, mother and father immigrated form Israel to the United States before I was born. I travel to Israel a lot and still have family over there...so believe me, i understand minority...I'm wondering if you do? No I'm not a women. I didn't no i had to be one to be considered a Minority and yes you did make a comparison to women oppression and African american slavery. I didn't infer that, I only read it form your post...maybe you should go back and delete that, it is truly in bad taste. Identity politics are baloney, really they are only for people who want to claim victim statice and judge themselves and others not by who they are but what they are. women are not a Minority. If you were to look at it in technical terms then the population of women out numbers the population of men. But I think you looking at it from the Minority group outlook. Is this really what it has come to with feminist? Do feminist feel that they need to divided themselves and differentiate themselves form men? Need to somehow be looked at as separate? What a very unhealthy way to look at human-kind. Feminist are constantly wondering why they have gotten such a bad rap and why they are looked at as man haters.
It is this kind of thinking. I thought that Feminist believed that men and women were the same? were equal? not to your standards obviously. Women do not make up a group. Men and women are not a group they are a demographic. Why the need to divide? And please tell me how you are being oppressed.
All i'm getting form you is someone who doesn't like men.

[James]

Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that the simple fact that she is as well known a..."
Oh and if being a Feminism women is a requirement to be part of your little privet Minority club then i reject your little elitist hate group.

[James]

Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Ash wrote: "James wrote: "Because she has the platform to speak about it that's why... To tell you the truth it really shouldn't be a actress that speaks to ..."
All right Tim I will explain some things to you. First the two profiles of James are both me...one form my iPad, one form my computer, I don't know why it does that.
Second You are really taking what i posted and running with it, really nitpicking and superimposing a lot of your own mindset into it. And Yes Talking to the United Nations should go to Intelligent people People with the knowledge, experience, insight and truthfulness. It dose't take a rocket scientist...Well it should or at least someone that intelligent. You go off in a-lot of different directions with your post. All you seemed to want to tell me is to stop complaining, is that it? You just wanted to tell me that? You seem to be acting with a emotional response. Do you have some logical view to offer? or even a interesting thought of your own?

[Sarah]

James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that the simple fact that she is a..."
As I said in the beginning not worth it, theres no point arguing with anyone who has a view they are so decidedly against parting with, whether theres logic or not. If youd like to keep twisting my words and insinuating I'm saying things I'm not saying go ahead. I'm leaving the thread.

[Sarah]

one more thing. I like that I cant pose a question about a controversial topic, still within the rules, without it being swiftly and silently removed but this kind of obvious provocation bordering on harassment is allowed to drag on..... if this is the way its going to be run you might find yourself losing people very quickly

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

James wrote: Oh and if being a Feminism women is a requirement to be part of your little privet Minority club then i reject your little elitist hate group.

You will have to excuse me, James, but this is what you have been doing since the very beginning in this group. Rejecting any argument that tried to at least make you consider other points of view. Look, it is very clear that you are against feminism. Not part of the movement, not one wave, not some of its representative figures. The whole thing altogether. You must be wondering whether you are or not entitled to your own opinion and the answer would be, yes, yes you are. However, in a debate, even more so if you take into account that there are so many voices in here, you are still supposed to consider your opponent's views. This is something that you have consistently failed to do. I am going to be honest with you now - we have received many complaints with regard to your participation in this group. Each and every time we have declined the request to ban you out of this group. Why? Because we believe in everybody's right to have their opinion. That being said, your participation in this forum so far has caused more than a few people to feel angry and frustrated. Because, as difficult as it might be for you to understand, there are people who care greatly about these topics, either because of their past experiences, their personal circumstances or just the set of values by which they carry on with their lives. Believe me when I say that your refusal to engage in a fruitful debate and learn from others can hurt some people.

'Little elitist hate group.' Why oh why do you still refuse to understand that feminism, at least the branch of feminism that we overwhelmingly defend in this space, is an all-welcoming movement. Acknowledging our privileges is as important and helpful as claiming the rights that we may be deprived of. There is nor elitism nor hatred in defending gender equality. There is, indeed, firmness and willingness to be heard and take action. That these should be confused and taken as the former seems more like a deliberate misunderstanding than as an uninformed mistake.
Perhaps this is indeed not the place for you, as you will not even consider to change your views and no, people who are here will most likely not change theirs because of your arguments either. If you find this is the case indeed, you can leave.

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Also, Ty, because you were still addressing me in previous questions. Some others have already replied before I have and so you can already anticipate my reply. However, I still feel the need to answer, and this will be my last word on the subject.

I cannot decide whether you actually stand by your statements or don't. If it's the latter, then you came to this forum with a very obvious goal, and I will not add a word to Katelyn's fair warning - I already had to hold myself when I initially saw your comments. However, even if you actually stand by your stance, you are still wrong. You are classifying people in strict folders from which they are not allowed to stand up and prove that, in fact, there are as many types of women and men as human beings are.
Male feminists, whether they choose to identify as such or not, because at the end of the day it's mostly about their actions and the thoughts that they reveal and/or prove, are not weak. Women who 'enjoy power' are not bullies, which inevitably brings me back to that double standard by which the same attitude is judged differently for men and women. Gender equalist women who date gender equalist men, and the opposite way, are seeking for an equal, loving relationship. And that's all there is to it.
As for Emma, well that would be surprising, if she was going into all of this headache and effort out of stubbornness and a longing for power. Because of this book club solely, she is already receiving a fair share of negative, unnecesary comments. I would hope she's in this because she wants to.

----------------------------------------------------

That's it. This is my final answer on this thread regarding this conversation. I would like to apologise to the other mods and members if they believe I am doing nothing but prolonging the issue. However, I just felt the need to answer, because this is an important space to me and I would like to contribute to others having an equally good experience here. That is all.

[Tim]

James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Ash wrote: "James wrote: "Because she has the platform to speak about it that's why... To tell you the truth it really shouldn't be a actress tha..."

Seriously, James? 'Nitpicking'? I literally picked the best of your arguments I could find, because I didn't want to just pick one that was easy (although I was a bit lazy in my reading of your comments). Speaking of which, the only specific argument I saw you respond to was Sarah's when she drew a comparison with the treatment of blacks (side not question to the mods: is 'negro' an acceptable word if it isn't used in an insulting context? Just for future reference). If she compared women to African slaves up until the late 19th century, it would probably have been a fragile argument, at least without further elaboration. However, I'm reasonably sure she wasn't referring to slavery, but to the general hisotrical treatment of blacks (by whites).

What I mean is this: racism, even institutionalised racism, did not end when slavery was abolished, in the same way that sexism did not end when women were allowed to vote and work. In fact, just as a side note, about 50 years ago, women weren't even allowed to open their own bank accounts. If I could buy the notion that you somehow really care about equality, you're being very lazy in your analysis of what equality entails, which I find to be very common among anti-feminists (though not necessarily non-feminists).

To quote George Carlin: "Think of it this way; in the big cosmic cafeteria, as humans move down the chow line of life, and reach that section where the shit is being spooned out, women are given several extra portions."

This counts in our current Western society as well, and if you want to hear Carlin's entire analysis, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i1W0...

I should inform anyone reading that this audio footage does contain some misandric hyptheses, ones that I agree with, though not necessarily every feminist. Nevertheless, it is very insightful on the treatment of women in the West.

For more on racism, I suggest watching Laci Green's video
"IS RACISM OVER YET?"

Finally, I'm really begging of you, the mods, not to shut this thread down just yet. Yes, it's received some very dodgy comments so far, but I urge you to save shutting it down as a very last resort, considering we're only talking about 2 people on a thread with far more support and constructive argument. Whether you do it or not is still up to you alone, and I'll hold no grudge if you do.

I apologise if the language you may have read in this comment or heard in the videos has upset you, although I hope that's not necessary, considering the profanity is not being used excessively and/or aimed at any one specific person in this discussion and... well, I'm not an adult just yet but I presume all of you reading this are, and as much as I respect the rules of this shelf and the mods' right to enforce them, I'm sure they don't entail cracking at the first sign of profanity.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Ash wrote: "James wrote: "Because she has the platform to speak about it that's why... To tell you the truth it really shouldn't be..."

Tim, thanks for being respectful and thoughtful. It is much appreciated. To clarify, I'd definitely rather not go around shutting down threads, but if we're unable to maintain a healthy level of respect, I'll do what needs to be done. And that includes reporting/banning/blocking members who repeatedly break rules. As far as your question about profanity, I think as long as it's not being used in a disrespectful manner or gratuitously, it is acceptable, and you've not done either, so no worries. As far as the term "negro" is concerned, at least in the U.S. it is not acceptable unless being used historically. I don't want to speak for everyone on that, though, especially as a white woman. As a graduate student who studies gender which commonly intersects with race, however, I can speak from my experience in that context that generally speaking, the most acceptable term is black (adjective) or black person/people (noun). "Negro" would only be used for the purpose of historical reference.

I think your explanation of systemic racism and sexism is very well put, with great examples. Unable to watch the videos just now, but I'll come back to them later. I think I've seen the Laci Green one before, or I've at least seen a bunch of her videos and I think she's pretty good at explaining the basics!

[Jo]

I am a great believer in the 'block this user' option at the bottom of each profile, not because I don't think there is room for opposite opinions but that my blood pressure thanks me after a while! When people come into a feminist book club with an MRA agenda, there's only so much engagement that can take place before it gets ugly. I opt to sacrifice future interactions with these individuals to the Goddess Ignora and move on. ;)

[[deleted user]]

Shaiyan wrote: "Ty, In the first part I suggested you re think the aggressive tone while discussing sensitive stuff, however, it is up to you how you want to make your point. And yes, I guess I did make it difficu..."

Ah I see, I did misunderstand what you said then. My reply to that is, you hang out with Emma types but they didn't date you, you were friend zoned hence it's an implication that they're thinking you're weak.

I'm not that aggressive, I just don't underestimate the strength of women the way you do, where you feel the need to constantly treat them as if they're fragile creatures who can't handle dealing with how dude brains really talk.

[[deleted user]]

Katelyn wrote: "This conversation is becoming a bit too heated and if it continues, perhaps I'm more strict than the other mods, but I will consider shutting it down.

Ty, you are coming awfully close to breaking ..."

Where did I break the rules? My description of her isn't that bad, it isn't gender stereotyping, it isn't putting her down, I used both positive and negative adjectives meaning it's a pretty neutral paragraph.

If you're afraid I'll scare off males from becoming a male feminist by stating what I stated then you're mistaken. You see, I'm the type that most dudes follow and listen to, and I am on your side ladies - I'm just trying to get people to think. The types that group with you do not have the abilities to raise awareness among the sex that you're targeting. The guys who will fight for women equality and make an impact, the guys who lead countries, the types who know how to get people to listen... they are not on board for a reason.

To get a load of dudes on your side, strong dudes, intelligent dudes, creative ones, leaders - the ones who can make impact, you must learn to accept that they will say things in a way that you won't like and do things in a way that you won't like, but if they're on your side and are fighting for whatever you're trying to get, then it shouldn't matter.

The question you people need to ask yourself is, are you a support group or are you an army trying to win something?

BTW, Emma isn't reading this section because the title is a blatant tactic to get her attention, and she's not dumb enough to fall for it.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Ty wrote: "Shaiyan wrote: "Ty, In the first part I suggested you re think the aggressive tone while discussing sensitive stuff, however, it is up to you how you want to make your point. And yes, I guess I did..."

Ty, what makes you think that you know enough about Emma or Shaiyan, or any of us for that matter, so make such bold statements as what an "Emma type" is or whether someone is "underestimat[ing] the strength of women" or "treat[ing] them as if they're fragile creatures."
I didn't see anything in Shaiyan's post that suggests that.

This is why you are coming across as disrespectful and aggressive. You do not know anyone here personally, so to make accusations like that is not okay. If you don't want people to think that of you, then I recommend you consider listening to what people have to say rather than making assumptions based on tired, old stereotypes.

[[deleted user]]

Katelyn wrote: "Ty wrote: "Shaiyan wrote: "Ty, In the first part I suggested you re think the aggressive tone while discussing sensitive stuff, however, it is up to you how you want to make your point. And yes, I ..."

I see your point, I won't name specific individuals anymore, how's that?

I'm just teaching empathy, understanding of another person/individual. Doesn't this world need more empathy? You can figure someone out by what they say, how they talk, and what their intentions are. To look for evidence in behavior vs. listening to stereotypes.

If a male who lacks empathy and follows social stereotypes that women aren't good at math, making judgments without analyzing behavior beforehand... and there's a girl who's better at math than all the other guys in the class yet she was turned down to lead a math team, there won't be justice there.

[Jing Wen]

Ty wrote: "Katelyn wrote: "Ty wrote: "Shaiyan wrote: "Ty, In the first part I suggested you re think the aggressive tone while discussing sensitive stuff, however, it is up to you how you want to make your po..."

Pffft. you talk about empathy and yet you literally generalized and stereotype a group of people. I find irony in that hypocritical statement.

[James]

Ana wrote: "James wrote: Oh and if being a Feminism women is a requirement to be part of your little privet Minority club then i reject your little elitist hate group.

You will have to excuse me, James, but ..."

Sarah wrote: "one more thing. I like that I cant pose a question about a controversial topic, still within the rules, without it being swiftly and silently removed but this kind of obvious provocation bordering ..."

Sarah wrote: "one more thing. I like that I cant pose a question about a controversial topic, still within the rules, without it being swiftly and silently removed but this kind of obvious provocation bordering ..."
To Ana, Which specific posting are you referring too? Which ones made you writing to me? Was it Sarah telling me that i wasn't a minority,even though I'm Jewish who's family is from Israel? She superimposed and inferred a-lot of things. I would suggest that you go back and read all the thread of post. I think you will see what make me reach the point that were I called Feminism a Minority hate group which was intended for her to read. As for how my post got started, I presented a honest criticism about Emma Watson, more about the HeForShe campaign. I stand by what i said. I'm sorry if they were blunt and people didn't like them but they were logical criticisms. As for Tim, yes man i understand the history of slavery of the African American people...I still don't think it's right for a first world middle class white girl to compare her struggles and "oppression" to that of African Americans from the past or present. God i hate identity politics, i swear they all lead to discrimination. I completely stand by everything i have ever said on this site and the way i have conducted myself. You said I don't except people views on this site...I have excepted a-lot of views...But a good amount of views are bad ...I think you would see that if you asked the right questions.

[James]

Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that the simple fact..."

I agree with you...although i think you're the one with "a view they are so decidedly against parting with."

[Sarah]

James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I would argue that t..."
Ok seriously, I replied once to your first comment, politely, and a second time to defend myself against how badly you twisted my words and have gotten a literal book back in response. I amended the mistake I made which you continue to use as you main point of focus and have disengaged myself from the conversation hours ago and yet you've continued to personally attack me and have now resorted to unjust name calling. you are not here for a debate you are here for a war. I understand the need to have opposing views represented but this has gone beyond acceptable.

[[deleted user]]

Jo wrote: "Ty wrote: "To be honest, I think she got suckered into this and she's just too stubborn to walk out. I think a part of her keeping this up is also because of those who yell at her for it - Watson t..."

She's not organizing that stuff. Un Women seek her out because she's hot and she's likable, it's politics where you look for good representation. I don't think she wants out anymore... I think she's going with it out of stubbornness, where she wants to prove everyone wrong - that she can make feminism into something positive. Unfortunately, the concept of feminism usually attracts a crowd that is hard to work with, hard to deal with - most aren't likable (that's the truth).

No matter how hard she tries to represent well, her crowd will always pull it back down.

I believe she believes in the concept of strong women but she's not the stereotypical feminist you meet at universities where they're nonsensical. Somewhere deep down she knows she's got a pile of crap to work with, but because she is the way that she is - she's going to keep trying until she wins, that's why I admire chicks like that.

[[deleted user]]

Stefania wrote: "Ty wrote: "I didn't read the whole women turning down male feminist thing..."

Hey, Ty! I happen to be exactly the type of girl you assume would never date a male feminist. Yes, I tend to be introv..."

I'm not judging Emma, I was describing her and the basis is based on personality type. The FBI uses the type system where they recognize a combination of personality traits and figure out behavior - they use this to catch rapists, serial killers, etc. The FBI is considered an intelligent group btw.

I do put women into categories, I put men into categories too. I label people because I try to understand them. Brilliant scientist use labels and categories because without them, you can't understand anything.

You're not the type I'm describing. The type I'm describing would've understood from the start what I'm saying and wouldn't jump down my throat - they don't judge. They're good at feeling people out . The type I describe is silent and neutral, they observe and plan before they do anything. Like they wouldn't scold me, they'd ask me questions to understand better.

Also I don't think you're an introvert since an introvert wouldn't respond the way you did. Like Kodak, Ana, Jo,Jing are introverts lol. Katelyn, James, and I are extroverts You can tell because we reveal our emotions in our posts - introverts don't do that

I know, I'm good right?

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Ty wrote: "Jo wrote: "Ty wrote: "To be honest, I think she got suckered into this and she's just too stubborn to walk out. I think a part of her keeping this up is also because of those who yell at her for it..."

Wow, Ty. I think you need to take a look around this discussion board and see the very cooperative, multi-faceted, and positive conversations happening. For you to categorize feminists in the way that you have is absolutely at odds with the goals of this book group, most of the members of which identify as feminists. If you find us so unlikeable, then I'm not sure why you are even here. If you are not interested in respectful discussion about books and feminism, then I suggest you find a different venue.

[[deleted user]]

Katelyn wrote: "Ty wrote: "Jo wrote: "Ty wrote: "To be honest, I think she got suckered into this and she's just too stubborn to walk out. I think a part of her keeping this up is also because of those who yell at..."

Jo asked a question and I'm explaining candidly. I'm not disrespecting anyone because it's not like I'm randomly attacking someone, I'm answering a question.

I'm explaining why Watson probably wanted to exit at first, because it's hard to deal with and why she's staying in, because she's stubborn and hates being told she can't do something.

This isn't me randomly attacking feminists.

Instead of judging, try listening. The feminist movement is a stand still, the old ways and responses are outdated and I think it's obvious you people need a new strategy - a new way of viewing things.

[[deleted user]]

Your crowd needs to start thinking about why people have such a negative light and have empathy to realize it's because of how they represent themselves.

They should be taught to be able to make new friends, not new enemies. To stop thinking in this us vs. them mentality - that especially is whats weighing you people down. Without the right allies you won't get anywhere, and honestly... Emma wouldn't have an issue with anything I say, Un Women wouldn't either.

I have said these things to them and they listened with a lot of interest because they're aware something isn't working. They even told me to make a list and stuff but I'm too busy for that lol. Like Emma does that stuff during her free time and for free but I enjoy spending my free time either chatting with people online or at the club or at some event.

[James]

Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, however I woul..."
You make a comment that i didn't belong because i wasn't the right MINORITY, to be here or speak about issues of equality. Then told me all my views were wrong without giving a logical reason why you felt that way. Along the way when i suggested that women should look at things in reverse regarding the HeforShe campaign and feminist discourse to men, You disregard that by saying that women shouldn't have to do such a thing. Then you made a comparison to women being oppressed was on the same level with african american oppression, which was out of line on so so many levels.
That Men oppress women and so women shouldn't have to reach any kind of mutual understanding...Is that your view? I don't know because you never made that clear.
Then you end it with a passive aggressive remark that I was wrong and refused to let go of my views. Which I simply repeated back to you and now you are saying I'm the one out of line.
I have never once called you a name. If I took your views out of content I'm sorry but what I wrote above is what I got from your post. Was I Angry at the Minority comment, absolutely.

[Sarah]

James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "James wrote: "James wrote: "Sarah wrote: "first off you thinking she doesn't raise awareness is definitely a personal opinion, ..."
Another book. Ok lets try this again.... I said you weren't THIS minority (which you yourself agreed) not A minority in regards to the fact that you have not been experiencing the same oppression we have and therefor have no right to tell us how to fight against it, especially if the only criticism you have to offer is to try and see it from the mans point of view..... we live that point of view everyday, believe me, we see it, that why were here.
and remember we are fighting for the equality of ALL women, not just the ones in America. our demographic is kidnapped and sold for sex, I have heard chinese mothers casually talk about strangling their newborn daughters after strings of female births, our children are treated as property to be distributed for wives. this issue runs much bigger and deeper than the issues of unequal pay, health care rights, and the way everyday norms that pervade our society keep us in the mindset of inequality, i.e. "giving the bride away". that being said the parallel was fine, oppression is and should not be something we rank on a scale of who has it worse, rather we should be striving to abolish all types regardless of whos affected and how bad it is. of course I'm not expecting to be met with opposition to this too because so far all you've done is put words in my mouth and accuse me of meaning things I never even hinted at meaning. I'm honestly not sure how you've managed to infer so much when Ive said so little.
And for the record I am not a "first world middle class white girl" as you seem so eager to tell me I am, even though apparently I'm the one making assumptions. so get off your horse and rethink your attitude.

[Tim]

Ty wrote: "Your crowd needs to start thinking about why people have such a negative light and have empathy to realize it's because of how they represent themselves.

They should be taught to be able to make ..."

Ty, seriously, how am I -how is anyone- supposed to take this from someone who claims to be 30 years old? You're making complete assumptions about people with little to no data, except for the data you want to see because it somewhat fits with your original idea of them and that clearly in turn fuels your ego, then when people call you out you go "You feminists need to learn empathy." or "You just need to know how people think, as I already do.", and you've even compared yourself to an FBI profiler while the work they do is centered around visual analyses of a physical environment, not just the content and timing of some people's messages on a forum discussing feminism. You're even so full of yourself that when people actually take you seriously and ask you to make some work of your opinion (unless you were fibbing about that) you just say "but I'm too busy for that lol". As misguided or possibly just impressionable as I think these people must be in doing so, they're showing you respect by treating you as an intellectual authority figure and you can't even be bothered to actually make an effort and show them some respect back. You're really coming off as the prototypical hipster in-my-comfort-zone-where-I-don't-need-to-think-too-much philosopher right now, that is no compliment, and it certainly isn't going to get you on this thread for much longer.

Even as a 17-year-old aspiring deductionist ('aspiring deductionist' being a synonym for 'Sherlock Holmes-freak', I suppose) with minor autism and a lack of tact, I find your behaviour throughout this thread to be incredibly low. Please put more effort and less narcissism in your thought and maybe you might actually deserve to have some supporters. A good start would be by first analysing the comments by others on this thread, before analysing your own.

If there is any specific point you want to make and you feel like feminism contradicts it, then make your point and maybe ask some questions so that we may do our bests to answer from our own individual perspectives in a way that covers as much specific ground on the topic as is necessary (at least from our own point of view as authors of the individual responses).

[Astrid]

Tim wrote: "Ty wrote: "Your crowd needs to start thinking about why people have such a negative light and have empathy to realize it's because of how they represent themselves.

They should be taught to be ab..."

Yes. This... just. Yes!

Also, I think I may love you just for introducing me to the term 'aspiring deductionist' :)

[Tim]

Katelyn wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Tim wrote: "James wrote: "Ash wrote: "James wrote: "Because she has the platform to speak about it that's why... To tell you the truth it really ..."

Thank you for your clarification; I'm from Belgium and here we're quite okay with words such as 'negro', but usually only in non-formal contexts. And to the defense of those who use it, most words used to refer to blacks ultimately derive from the Latin word 'niger' which just means 'black', so in a sense 'blacks' and 'negros' could be considered the same thing. Then again, I suppose the difference is that in the U.S. (if not perhaps in other English speaking countries as well) enslavement of blacks was a domestic phenomenon, whereas most other countries did it in colonies (e.g. abroad), which is probably why some countries perceive the words as carrying much weight, while other countries do not.

But I understand why it's considered to be a word best avoided in the English language, even though I personally believe the words merely amplify the racist contexts of the general statements in which they're said, but do not create them [the racist contexts].

[Tim]

Astrid wrote: "Tim wrote: "Ty wrote: "Your crowd needs to start thinking about why people have such a negative light and have empathy to realize it's because of how they represent themselves.

They should be tau..."

Hahahaha, thanks. I may not be anywhere near as good with arguments and/or words in a real conversation, but when it comes to the written word, I feel obligated to do the best I can. After all, when writing, you have plenty of time to choose your words carefully and examine your sentence before say it. So there's really no reason or excuse for me not to feel obligated to do my best.