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RED RISING Trilogy re-reads
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The GOLDEN SON re-read: Part III - CONQUER
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Did anyone here play the video game Quake II back in the day? The Iron rain certainly feels lifted from it's opening cinematic.
Pierce mentioned in one of his replies that Gold Son is really about Darrow losing himself. A line at the end of the fantastic interaction between Darrow and Mustang illuminated that change for me. "If she gives me her heart, I’ll break it. My lie is too great to build a love upon. When she discovers what I am, she will reject me." (Pg. 291).
How can Darrow know that? He can't. Combine that quote with his "recruiting" of Lorn, his distance from (and drugging of) Roque, his convenient flirtation with Victra and his secret alliance The Jackal and it's so clear that Darrow has become everything he set out to defeat. He's become more Gold than ever as he goes beyond simple manipulation and graduates to believing he has the ability to know each and every person's heart and minds and rule their actions.
He says to Lorn, "...you know the heart that beats inside" and to that I ask, "does he?"
Joshua wrote: "Pierce mentioned in one of his replies that Gold Son is really about Darrow losing himself. A line at the end of the fantastic interaction between Darrow and Mustang illuminated that change for me...."I'm not sure I see Darrow losing himself in the same way that you (and maybe Pierce) do. Darrow's mission was always Eo's dream: a better world where there are no chains on anyone. As Darrow infiltrated the Gold world he learned that it's not just Reds, Pinks and Obsidians that are slaves, but every person of every color including even Golds that in one way or another have their individuality taken from them by the Society.
So his true mission is not one of class warfare where it's Reds vs. Golds or all other colors vs. Golds. His mission is to break the chains of the entire Society. To that end he mostly keeps his eye on the ultimate goal of bringing down the Society and understands that he may need to manipulate his friends in order to do so. Lying to his friends tortures him, but he sees it as what's necessary for the greater good.
So I don't think that his lying to Mustang, his manipulation of Lorn, or his convenient alliance with the Jackal are him losing himself. They are examples of moral sacrifices he is making willingly for the sake of the greater mission at stake. The only time I really see him losing himself and losing that focus was when he let Harmony take advantage of his grief to convince him to change his mission to one of revenge. Darrow lost himself when he briefly made the mission Red vs. Gold, rather than Eo's dream of all individuals against an oppressive Society.
I have a slightly different take. I think PB meant that Darrow has lost himself, but it's more of an internal struggle with his Red self than external, with the Gold alliances. In RR, Darrow mourns his losses; his wife, his life, his family, his innocence, the world as he knew it. In GS, Darrow is losing himself in the weight of his deception. Golds may follow him now and sacrifice themselves, but he cannot have REAL friendships or love until they know who and what he is, no lies. Would ANY of his fallen friends have died for him if they knew who he was? Listen to his internal dialogues. They mostly bemoan how Mustang and his friends would betray him if they knew he was a Red. Only Sevro and Ragnar know and accept him as-is. What life does he really have when this war is all done without true friendships. He feels guilty and is lonely, misses the simpler and true(?) existence of his former Red life. I think the only thing that he can hold true to is his integrity even when it comes to manipulating his Gold friends. As we all know, the end of GS was the big reveal! It was the culmination of Darrow's grief getting the best of him. So for me, it makes sense that MS will be about Darrow really finding himself, his true self and building his circle with those who truly accept him all while trying to take down the old Society and restructure it to break the chains of slavery.
David wrote: "Joshua wrote: "Pierce mentioned in one of his replies that Gold Son is really about Darrow losing himself. A line at the end of the fantastic interaction between Darrow and Mustang illuminated that..."You are right, David. Darrow was manipulated by Harmony, making it a Red vs Gold issue. But our boy is too smart for that, thank goodness! Darrow's plans became more than just vengeance, but change which transcended his own self interest.
Denise wrote: "I have a slightly different take. I think PB meant that Darrow has lost himself, but it's more of an internal struggle with his Red self than external, with the Gold alliances. In RR, Darrow mourns..."I like your interpretation. Darrow may not have really lost himself in the sense of losing focus on his mission, but he feels lost in that he doesn't know who to trust and is losing a sense of who he is.
If you're correct that Morning Star will center around Darrow "finding himself", then the overall arc of the trilogy is a real "Who am I" type of story. In Red Rising Darrow's identity, image, priorities, and everything else all dramatically change and he's just starting to learn how to cope with the changes. In Golden Son he goes through a full identity crisis where he doesn't know how to deal with who he's become, doesn't know who his friends are, etc. Then for Morning Star he'll come to grips with who he is and find his true potential.
I likes it.
David wrote: "Denise wrote: "I have a slightly different take. I think PB meant that Darrow has lost himself, but it's more of an internal struggle with his Red self than external, with the Gold alliances. In RR..."Exactly David! Who are we ALL, for that matter? Darrow once said (I forget where) that we are all the same, we all bleed red, or something like that. ;)
Love the line to Pliny on pg. 307, "You are a worm who thought himself a serpent just because you slither."Also, I hadn't thought of the perspective Darrow ponders on pg. 314, third paragraph. As a leader having earned some reputation on the journey to his current status he is a target for some just for who he has become. So while he has a cause and millions of details and people and plans on which to focus, there are those out there who disregard any of it just for the trophy he would be. A disadvantage of scope as a leader I'd not considered. Chilling, really.
I have a question about one of the lines the Jackal says to his father that I did not understand. He says that his father "...you put me on a rock for the elements to claim me? Three days. I was a baby. The Board didn't even want an Exposure". (P 440 kindle edition)So what does this mean? Did this turn him evil? If his father thought him so weak as to get rid of him as a baby, why would he try so hard to make sure he succeeds at the Institute? Also what is an Exposure?
Pierce - If you write another Red Rising story, from who's perspective would you choose? Or maybe a prequel?
Joshua wrote: "Pierce mentioned in one of his replies that Gold Son is really about Darrow losing himself. A line at the end of the fantastic interaction between Darrow and Mustang illuminated that change for me...."I think at times Darrow is so caught up in the Gold world that he doesn't recognize the extent to which he has adopted their mentality. His actions to complete his mission can be more Gold than Red so to speak. But the line about Mustang goes beyond him simply having lost himself as a Gold in my opinion. He has true feelings for her he can't reconcile, blurring that line of his Red and Gold selves. She's not like most other Golds yet how can caring for her not be a betrayal to Eo? It is something outside his mission that he never expected. I think his belief that she will reject him is part, how could a Gold ever love a Red? Part ,if she knew the depths of his deceptions to get to where he is how could she ever trust or love him? Plus I think he fears that judgement by Mustang and what it would do to him. It's easier to turn that around and for him to "know" that she will reject him than face it. Maybe he questions which would be worse for him, if she rejected him or if she accepted him? Better never to find out?
But there's a quote in Part IV (one of my favorites in the series so far) that shows Darrow moving past this. I don't have the book with me at the moment and I don't want to diminish it's magnitude with a poor paraphrase so I will wait to do so.
Shawn, you've captured what I didn't articulate well enough. I think Darrow set out on his mission as a Red in a Gold's body. His thoughts were, "If I can survive working as a helldiver, I must have what it takes to do this." His struggle is that his actions are those of a Gold. The banquet on Luna is an allegorical summation of his situation. He expected in the beginning that he would simply run in, throw a bomb under the table and be done with it. But he's realized there much more to the game than that and, to his surprise, he much better at the game than he expected. Not only so, but he has created genuine relationships that he's afraid to loose.
What is most interesting, as I believe David alluded to above, is how Darrow is beginning to see through the entire color system. And that breaking down the society itself is the true mission. But he still, apparently, holds to the idea that only lowColors can see, or appreciate, equality.
"But there’s beauty in this moment. In the half seconds where Golds and Obsidians nod to one another to pass on comfort before going about their tasks, finding solace in the cocoon of duty, in companionship, like I did in the mines." (Pg. 330).
I think there is foreshadowing of the love relationships between different casts as related to Mustang and Darrow. Example: GS Ch24 pg 217. She is explaining her dissertation of the mistakes in the "sociological manipulation theorems used by the Board of Quality Control". She talks about "The ridigity of laws maintaining the hierarchy are so strict they'll one day break." Golds falling in love with Obsidians, Pinks having a high suicide rate. With this conversation, Mustang is stating that the laws governing their society are deeply flawed and acknowledges intercolor/cast relationships independent of known history. I think this foreshadows her future acceptance of Darrow as a Red. Yes she is upset when she finds out. Wouldn't you be if the rug was pulled out from under you, your perspective turned on it's head? All you knew, a lie? She will think about it and know she is no hypocrite and realize Darrow truly loves her, or he would not have revealed such a truth. She is the reason he didn't turn out like Titus, he said so. I think she is hiding and planning to help Darrow. I think the others found out about Darrow because they were privy somehow to the conversation she had with Darrow.The other foreshadowing was Fitchner's life and Sevro. GS Ch46 pg 392, Falling in love with a Red girl and having thier son, Sevro. Sevro didn't know about this until 2 days prior. Yet he knew Darrow was a Red well before then and accepted him as his friend. I don't even think Sevro knew about his Father being Ares either until very recent.
So, IMHO, Virginia will be on Darrow's side, just like Sevro. As will Victra (if she isn't truly dead) and the Telemanus's. As much as I liked Rogue, I don't think he will be on board.
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Also, I hadn't thought of the perspective Darrow ponders on pg. 314, third paragraph. As..."
How strange it'd be to know somewhere, someone, maybe thousands of people dream of killing you and hoisting high your head for glory.
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The Exposure is a custom taken from Spartan culture where they would leave deformed or sickly children on rocks for wolves to eat or elements to claim instead of letting them burden their society. The Board of Quality Control dictates a certain percentage of children of certain birth weights and makeup be placed in exposure. That's three days in the cold on an rock. If they survive, then they've survived Darwin's scythe...for now. They bring them back in and throw them into the scrum of evil that is Gold upbringing.
The Jackal was sickly. He was put on a rock. He survived. But from the first moment of his childhood, he was never enough for his father. Because his father had Claudius, his perfect elder brother. Then Claudius died, and Augustus was left with a daughter who had reformer tendencies and a son whom he despised.
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I inherently dislike knowing how things will end.
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You kids get me.
Pierce wrote: "Joshua wrote: "Shawn, you've captured what I didn't articulate well enough. I think Darrow set out on his mission as a Red in a Gold's body. His thoughts were, "If I can survive working as a helldi..."Haha, "kids"?! I think you're the junior of a number of us, young man. Who ever heard of a twenty-something writer who could write a series this literary, entertaining, and thought provoking? Can't wait to see where you take your career.
Pierce wrote: "Minh wrote: "Pierce - If you write another Red Rising story, from who's perspective would you choose? Or maybe a prequel?"I inherently dislike knowing how things will end."
So you dislike Anikan "Ani" Skywalker right??
David wrote: "Haha, "kids"?! I think you're the junior of a number of us, young man. Who ever heard of a twenty-something writer who could write a series this literary, entertaining, and thought provoking? Can't wait to see where you take your career."I second that!
Denise wrote: "David wrote: "Haha, "kids"?! I think you're the junior of a number of us, young man. Who ever heard of a twenty-something writer who could write a series this literary, entertaining, and thought pr..."And I !
Well, I'm his same age, so no "kid" for me, but I can't call it that either xD
We totally get you because you feed us our favorite drug!
Right now (1/23-1/29) we're focusing on section III: CONQUER
Here a little intro to the section: With the war ongoing, Darrows alliances and rivalries change by the minute as armies are raised…and friends are felled.
As with the RED RISING re-read, the main purpose for breaking down the read is to keep the discussion focussed and if anyone has any specific questions for Pierce and/or his editor regarding a specific section.
Happy reading!
Pierce & Del Rey books