Support for Indie Authors discussion
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Grammar don't matter much
Cringe? I went on total lock down. Muscles I didn't even realize I had tightened involuntarily.I struggle mightily to erase my dialect from my writing. It is a sick, bloodthirsty shadow that hungers for my warmth as it lurks over my shoulder. I want as many people as possible to be able to enjoy what I write regardless of their language or dialect.
It's not that I disagree with you at all, I really just wanted to offer a counterpoint. Each Author should prominently display their personality, and when it comes to dialogue, all rules are thrown out of the window.
I probably won't unclench for 3 days.
I go out of my way to show intelligent characters speaking atrociously. Why? Because that's real. I know a lot of smart people, some with the fancy papers to prove it. None of them speak properly. I made sure all my doctors said aint at least once.Funny too, I was just noticing this is a series I was enjoying this weekend. There's a character who is a genius, but she speaks with a pronounced southern accent, which people tend to think of as uneducated. When it's revealed in the story that this supposed delinquent is smart, nothing about her demeanor changes. I appreciate that. I appreciate real characters acting like real people.
I absolutely love this discussion. I'm grateful for my editor, who bails me out and makes me look good, but I love slang and humor. I also live with a grammar nazi...haha.I guess you have to learn the rules first, in order to break them. :-)
I'm still a student of that game. I admire people like you.
xoxo
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Agreed.
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I broke Charles. Oh, deary dear.* I'm not sure where we can get a new one.
*Quote borrowed from Gene Wilder in "Blazing Saddles".
I usually write with (near) perfect grammar, then it's up to my editor and alpha readers to bombard me with my mistakes. My work is quite dark so I'd hate for errors to distract from the narrative.I'm not as strict when it comes to character dialogue. In fact, my first novella contains a character that speaks with a strong west-country accent and since he wasn't a particularly well-educated man (18th century sailor), for the sake of realism, I felt it best to include the errors they would have actually made. My concern in regards to his dialogue was with phonetic accuracy.
Ain't nothing I wouldn't do for realism.
For me I guess it depends. If it's part of the style than that's perfectly fine. However, if it's obvious mistakes then it puts me off. :)
I am a grammar Nazi but I write in 1st person and most of my characters are not. If I do read a book with too many spelling and grammatical errors, I disengage and start reading like an editor.
I hate grammar and wish it could be eradicated from all known Universes.However, I am an editor and a publisher too - if grammar (or the lack of it) affects then that is something that needs to be addressed ... otherwise, just enjoy the story.
Alp
You walk a fine line between having the reader realize that you have a unique character with a unique way of speaking, or having him think that you're illiterate (not you personally). If I can figure this out from the sample I'm allowed to read, then, okay, I might buy the book. But if I think that this is done through ignorance, I'll move on.
I know that Mark Twain wrote the same way, giving his characters their own voice, so it isn't wrong, but given how books are presented on places like Amazon, you just have to be careful.
I know that Mark Twain wrote the same way, giving his characters their own voice, so it isn't wrong, but given how books are presented on places like Amazon, you just have to be careful.
In my first book, there are two MCs. One is a psychologist graduate, the other is a 19th century runaway slave. It would have been strange if I had them speaking with the same grammar. Character dialog is where I believe readers expect to see the color of dialect, slang, etc.As for whether stringent grammar is necessary in the general writing style of the book, well, it depends on the style of the book. My first one flowed to where I wanted to use proper grammar. My current one is 1st person. Sometimes I intentionally use incomplete sentences, or one-word sentences. It's all a matter of flow and voice.
Each book has its own voice and therefore its own application of grammar. When I read a book, and it's obvious the author writes a certain way intentionally, it makes the book that much more authentic. Know the rules and break them.
Are there books where the grammar issues don't seem intentional? Of course. If the writing style takes me out of the story because of it, that's another issue entirely. On the flip side, there are some eloquently written books which take me out of the story because they're too much so.
Thanks Dewayne for creating this thread, I didn't think my question would accumulate this much interest or interest at all.When I'm writing a character from the UK or from Mississippi. I will use the grammar and spellings from that region to make the complex characters that I write believable and authentic because we all have a colloquial or cultural way of speaking, spelling or grammar even if we do know the proper rules which I do and express in my writing. For example: A person from the UK will spell "practice" (U.S.), "practise"(UK) I will spell it that way especially if my character is from the UK. Grammar like in Mississippi where I'm from even though we know proper grammar contrary to ignorant belief.
Colloquially, if someone was to ask me "Do you have enough food?" I would say "We got plenty." Which would be considered bad grammar if I put that in my characters dialogue, if my character is from Mississippi. Or a character I've written who is from the UK and says: "I'm not trying to take the piss out of anyone," (British English) or "I'll do it now in a minute."(South Welsh) some readers who are not from that country/region will probably see that as a grammatical error on my part yet, I'm only authenticating my characters, along with using local color for more authentication, it was appreciated in Mark Twain, William Faulkner's day not so much in Zora Neale Hurston's day since she received backlash from the black community for her use of colloquial language in her books, which I don't want to experience that as an author from anyone like she did. But, in this society it just might happen because I'm trying to keep my characters authentic.
Hmm, interesting topic!I was brought up to be something of a grammar snob - my mum belonged very much to the "Do you want people to think you're trash?" school. Then I moved up north and found myself mingling with people who mix up tenses etc willy bully. At first I was insufferable about it, correcting their speech - not a good idea if they're your boss! While part of me will always cringe at "bad English", it is no indication of intelligence or class. Nor will you be incinerated if you occasionally indulge in it yourself!
Writing is slightly different. It's fine in dialogue, and means that at least your characters sound like real people, but I would jolt if I came across it in narration. We all have our personal peeves: mine is "stood" instead of standing and "sat" instead of sitting. "He was sat at the bus stop ..." My eyes!
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I actually did the opposite in the last book I published. The main character is a moron, but her mother taught her well when it comes to English. So, she writes well on topics she doesn't understand.
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This is actually one of the influences Twain had on my writing. I understand the concern of potentially losing sales if readers detect that my grammar is subpar, but this is not something that worries me, personally. Nothing any of us writes is going to please everybody and as Ricky Nelson sang, "gotta please myself".
Dwayne wrote: "Ken wrote: "I know that Mark Twain wrote the same way, giving his characters their own voice, so it isn't wrong, but given how books are presented on places like Amazon, you just have to be careful..."I wholeheartedly agree. Ain't no sense in splittin' hairs over it.
See there how I used proper grammar and "bad grammar" together. Looks so sublime. I love being a writer! I not only bend the rules, but, break them and invent new ones with my writing everyday. :)
Mod
The term "grammar Nazi" has always made me a little sad. Writing is an art form and ours is the only art in which we allow Nazis to invade and dictate what we should and should not do.
Think about it.
If someone were to approach a Picasso painting, wrinkle their nose and say, "this man does not know how to paint", those around him would view him as an uncultured swine. Paintings need not always look like bowls of fruit or a photographically perfect portrait, sculpture need not always look like naked people sitting on rocks or what have you. And so on.
But, writers are held to a long list of strict rules and if we break even one we're the ones that are considered uncultured swine. Television, movies, theater, music... especially rock music... are absolute criminals against proper grammar and no one seems to notice or care. When Fats Domino sings, "Ain't That a Shame", very few would tut and shake their heads and say, "shouldn't that be 'Isn't It a Shame'?"
Food for thought. Carry on.
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Good for you! I'm an absolute mad scientist with the rules.
I love this group! I wish I had this group 25 years ago when I was 13 and just started being a writer. That being said, I think authenticity is important makes the characters more relatable. I don't write three dimensional characters, I only write complex/unique characters because we as human beings are complex and unique individuals. I write my characters just like how real people are even if I write them as doing something or saying something totally "out of character." Human beings, we do things out of character all the time and that's how I write my characters because that makes them authentic.
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Remember, as the rules state, criticism should be respectful and requested.
Aside from that, I am enjoying the discussion!
Previous comment deleted. As Dwayne said in the comment right above this one, this is not a place to list pet peeves and nitpicks. This is supposed to be a lighthearted conversation about our own use of grammar. Keep it happy, kids!
Did you just delete my comment? Because I was talking about me and my own writing and how I write I wasn't directing that toward anyone but, myself. No pet peeves displayed. Or am I mistaken and it was someone else's comment deleted? :)
Mod
All the comments I've seen of yours so far today are still here. I have deleted a couple, but they were not yours.
Dwayne wrote: "Angel wrote: "Did you just delete my comment?"All the comments I've seen of yours so far today are still here. I have deleted a couple, but they were not yours."
Oh, ok. I'm sorry. Moving on then. :)
Getting back on topic what about quotation marks? When I write the dialogue for my characters I tend to do it like this: "I don't want to save him. You can't make me." Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it." He sighed. It's part of my writing style but, I was told by a reader it was a grammatical error, because there were too many quotation marks. But, I don't feel it is, since I said before it's my own writing style and I'm not going to change it.
For me, correct grammar is very important unless its misuse is intentional. The question is whether the reader understands that. I think most readers are sophisticated enough to tell the difference.
Mod
Huh. I don't see any problem with the quotation marks. I'd have written it almost exactly that way. The only slight change I'd make is turn a couple of the periods into commas, like this: "I don't want to save him. You can't make me," Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it," he sighed.
And I'm not saying that's the way it should be done, but it's the way I'd do it. The quotation marks look fine.
Alp wrote: "I hate grammar and wish it could be eradicated from all known Universes.However, I am an editor and a publisher too - if grammar (or the lack of it) affects then that is something that needs to ..."
You made me LOL. You hate grammar??? Love it! lol
I was never taught grammar. I missed that year of English in high school. So I still don't know what a participle is or a diphthong or a split infinitive. No can I punctuate -- at least not very well. I love em-dashes (so useful sticking in digressions -- like this one) -- parentheses are pretty cool too (of course -- that is well known) I just write anyway -- I mean any way (I think that's what I mean) -- cuz (which oughta be a word -- seriously! It's efficient! That's like 60% saving of ASCII characters! Think about it!) -- umm, well, y'know . . . (those little 3-dot things are fun too) I can. More of less. Mostly less. Sorta.
(Did I mention I like sentence fragments?)
Dwayne wrote: "Angel wrote: ""I don't want to save him. You can't make me." Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it." He sighed. It's part of my writing style but, I was told by a reader it was a grammatical ..."I had it like that before like you just described which is actually my usual writing style, which varies by the way but, it was seen as confusing to a reader when I did it that way and they said I needed to edit it out if I want to prevent getting a poor rating, but, as I said before I write the way I write and if there are readers or whatever that don't like it oh, well everybody has an opinion.
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"
Same here. They can be quite effective.
Mod
Well, it's not terrible the way you changed it, but I'm not sure how it is confusing the other way. I probably wouldn't listen to that reader anymore if I were you.
Dwayne wrote: "Owen wrote: "(Did I mention I like sentence fragments?)"
Same here. They can be quite effective."
Absolutely.
Dwayne wrote: "Owen wrote: "(Did I mention I like sentence fragments?)"
Same here. They can be quite effective."
Totes effective!
In my writing, characters talk the way they talk, and plenty of times, that is not with good grammar. But I try to write the rest of what I write with good grammar... and yes, lots of ellipses -- and dashes, of course -- because I like them too!
Dwayne wrote: "Angel wrote: "it was seen as confusing to a reader when I did it that way and they said I needed to edit it out if I want to prevent getting a poor rating..."Well, it's not terrible the way you c..."
I won't. I've been doing it my way without a readers input for over 20 years. And for the first time ever I allowed a reader's opinion of my writing style or writing to matter. That won't happen again, guaranteed. My work is too important to me to let a narrow way of thinking to invade it. I won't entertain notions like that thrown at me again. I think it was also because I'm an indie author is why they said what they said.
But, like always my writing will be the way I want to write it and when my upcoming novels come out that will be seen live and in color. The risk of poor ratings have never stopped me from writing the way I want to write. But, so far so good 98% of my reviews and ratings have been great. So I must be doing something right doing it my way. It's why I became indie to present my own unique writing style and writing the books I like to read that I don't see in the mainstream. Thanks Dwayne! You reminded me why I'm an indie author and why I've lasted this long in this writing/publishing business.
Quoleena wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "Owen wrote: "(Did I mention I like sentence fragments?)"
Same here. They can be quite effective."
Totes effective!"
Word.
Just, you know... Make shear its the write word.
Dwayne wrote: "I don't want to save him. You can't make me," Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it," he sighed...."Careful with that coma after the but. I've been slammed in a review for doing that once or twice because I felt the pause in that particular sentence fit better there than before. :/
Now I tend to put ... instead. I know. Bad grammar. :P
G.G. wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "I don't want to save him. You can't make me," Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it," he sighed...."Careful with that coma after the but. I've been called for doing that once..."
Then there are some schools of thought which claim the only way you can begin a sentence with a conjunction is to add a comma after it.
So you see? Grammar shmammer. I'm pretty sure the rules change every few years, so it's impossible to be perfect anyway. PS I should mention that commas have always been my nemesis. They're so little yet so annoying to me when I write. I tend to use them too much, but I've gotten better at not breaking the flow of my sentences with those little buggers. It helps that I've started writing much shorter sentences.
"Angel wrote: ""I don't want to save him. You can't make me." Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it." He sighed. It's part of my writing style but, I was told by a reader it was a grammatical ..."Too many quotation marks? what did they mean by that? I think they are where they should be and any less would make the text wrong. Or are they from a country where they use ' instead of " for dialogues?
Quoleena wrote: "G.G. wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "I don't want to save him. You can't make me," Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it," he sighed...."Careful with that coma after the but. I've been called for do..."
That's good to know. I know that the but starts a sentence, but for me it was just the continuity of the one that was started but broken by a tag. (My gosh that's a lot of buts)
Also I didn't know about the coma after the but when it starts a sentence. Thanks. I love a day when I learn something new...wait...that means I love everyday of the year because I always do! :P
If you ask me, I think that particular rule can seem forced/out of place. I have no problem breaking it. B-in-the-d you weren't supposed to start a sentence with "and" or "but" period, comma or not. Personally, I think those things border on nit-pickiness. I've elected just to go with what feels right for the flow.
G.G. wrote: ""Angel wrote: ""I don't want to save him. You can't make me." Dan warned. "But, maybe I'll think about it." He sighed. It's part of my writing style but, I was told by a reader it was a grammatical..."Thanks, G.G. I thought so too.
I pretty much use correct grammar for the narration, but with dialogue I'm even more flexible. My college instructor once told me don't use "And " to start a sentence. But, I do it anyway. With all my background in English, Literature, Psychology, etc. and education from three colleges I still don't follow the rules even though I know how to and have but, I prefer my own writing style. Sentence fragments, sometimes run-ons and all.That's just it, that's just me.
I tend to do stylistic things like sentence fragments and asyndeton (leaving out conjunctions - something I did for a long time before I knew there was a name for it) which some might consider ungrammatical, but other than that I try to keep it as grammatical as possible.
I can tell you what I don't do, and that's take any grammatical advice from MS Word, haha.
Joe wrote: "I can tell you what I don't do, and that's take any grammatical advice from MS Word, haha."We can't let it win. It could very well be a sentient program aiming to take over the world, one PC and Mac user at a time. How? Bad grammar mind games.
I generally try to use correct grammar when writing the narrative (at least in third person,) but I do still try to loosen up the rules to make it sound closer to something spoken. With character dialogue I throw the rules out the window because people don't talk like English textbooks. But I try to keep it readable.In one of my novels I had a character who spoke with a thick Cockney accent and I really made it show in the text: improper grammar, apostrophes everywhere, and chopping the H's off words left and right. It got her accent through pretty clear, but it was also a pain to parse, and she was the only character who spoke that way, so it made the whole text really jarring. (And she had a lot of long lines.) I ended up drastically toning it down, just left in little bits like using "an" instead of "a" in front of words with a pronounced H, "me" instead of "my;" enough to get across that she had a dialect without making the reader stop and translate what the hell she was saying.
I know there are some authors who go all out with the crazy grammar and phonetically spelling out mispronounced words, but I think readability should always be a factor for something like that.
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I'm putting this in the fun folder since it's one of those things I don't believe has a right or wrong answer, but could be an interesting discussion.
In Ray's thread about reviews and how to deal with typos found in a book, Angel mentioned grammar and eluded to how it can be different from book to book and author to author.
I tend to believe that if you are an author you are free to create your own grammatical rules. The one exception may be if you are writing serious non-fiction.
Now, of course, if you want to adhere to the rules of proper grammar in your writing, there's nothing wrong with that. But, for me, the rules tend to change from book to book. I always think of the narration as a character. Even if I'm writing in the third person, I envision the narration as being spoken by an unseen character, a story teller if you will, sitting off to the side, not involved in the action but describing it.
Most of my writing is humor and satire. And when it comes to those you better believe I'm going to toss standard rules of grammar out the window if they are standing in the way of pacing a comical moment just right. Tone, rhythm, using just the right words in just the right order to set up the joke... all of this matters more than grammar.
But, that's just me.
How important is grammar to you in your writing?