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As I Lay Dying
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Thanks, Sandra. There's lots to think about here. I'll try to formulate my thoughts.
I have finished as well. Enjoyed reading your thoughts Sandra. Waiting for all to finish before I comment further.
I finished as well. Still formulating my thoughts and review.
Mod
Okay, I did a reread on As I Lay Dying and it doesn't become more clear the second time around. In fact it becomes more confusing!A few things that bug me. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Darl seems to be more like an omniscient narrator as he knows and explains things that he wasn't there to observe. Does this work?
Why are some smaller passages written in italics? I can't figure it out?
(view spoiler)
All in all the story works mainly as a dark farce but... I don't know. I don't think Faulkner worked out the bugs in the story. I'll keep my 3 star rating.
(view spoiler)
Mod
Darl seems to be more like an omniscient narrator as he knows and explains things that he wasn't there to observe. Does this work?
Why are some smaller passages written in italics? I can't figure it out?
..."
I was puzzling over this too Sandra.
It complicates things that not every character's voice is fully distinct. Some are. Cora's sections and Vardaman's sections are distinct enough in voice that I could recognize who the narrator was without being told. But Peabody and Darl for instance are both philosophical and pull-out-the-stops poetic & lovely; those two voices seem nearly indistinguishable to me other than by their attitudes.
I have never studied Faulkner in school and have done no research; so this is just my opinion. In the one Darl section about a quarter way through where Darl & Jewel are stuck on the road with a broken axle as (view spoiler), all the things happening where Darl & Jewel are shown in italics, and all the things happening back at the house are in regular type. But this is a "Darl" section; so as you say, how can he be reporting on things he isn't seeing?
Well, there's a common convention that when a person's thoughts are given directly verbatim, those thoughts are sometimes given in italics. I've seen this in other books. So here in my theory:
The Italics parts are Darl's stream of consciousness thoughts at that time, as he's stuck on the side of the road. The regular text parts are Darl's second hand re-telling of the story of what happens back at the house. When Darl got back, Peabody and/or his family told him what had happened while he & Jewel were gone - this is his full imagining of those events that had transpired at the house in his head, as he believes they must've happened based on what he's been told. I think that's why the non-italic parts in that section have a much more retrospective flavor than the italicized parts.
What does everyone else think? Did anyone else study or teach Faulkner in a school setting?
Just to confirm which and when are the 5 other Faulkner reads:April
The Reivers: A Reminiscence (Gill & others)
June
Sanctuary (Gill & others)
August
Absalom, Absalom! (Gill & others) (for your light holiday read!)
October
Go Down, Moses (Gill & others)
December
Requiem for a Nun (Gill & others)
Greg, I agree with you about the italics. They did seem to be Darl's intimate thoughts, while the regular font seemed to be a retelling. It goes to show, I think, that the story is being told as a look back at a time; not as a current story, which is why Darl can state what happened while he was away....it also makes this part of the story a bit unreliable, since its hearsay from others and interpretation on his part. This story is the past to the characters, which would explain the "Mrs Bundren" comments (which also show that the relationship between kids and the new Mrs Bundren remains formal and cool, I think).
Sandra, I pondered how Anse got a new Mrs Bundren so quickly but then remembered that Addie, too, married him awfully quickly. Addie was looking to get away from teaching but still....it was a quick romance and what she described of Anse was clean, brings flowers, paid attention, etc. Not a bad catch for someone who doesn't want to be alone. We don't know the new Mrs Bundren but she may have been lonely and a man who was clean, paid attention and showed affection/caring might be enough to make one believe that Life would be better with him than without.
(hard to believe, I know, that someone would think Anse a "good" or "tolerable" catch since we know him differently, but given the few details of the courtship, it might be possible)
One of the things that I found surprising about this book was my reaction to it: as I was reading, the story had some humorous points but was mainly a stark story.......but, no matter where I was in the book, when I thought of the story I had already read, I saw an incredibly funny story of one mishap after another.
Looking forward, it was stark; looking back, it was laughably funny. I mean, imagine being Addie:(view spoiler) .....oh, and buzzards follow her everywhere. That's laughable, in a grizzly way.
Like Greg, I haven't studied Faulkner. I love his writing just as is, even if I don't understand it all. This book would benefit from a rereading but I enjoyed it just as is, for what I got out of it.
Yeah, Faulkner sticks with you. I like him almost in spite of myself!
Mod
Looking forward, it was stark; looking back, it was laughably funny. I mean, imagine being Addie:(view spoiler) .....oh, and buzzards follow her everywhere. That's laughable, in a grizzly way. ..."
I'm glad you mentioned this Petra!! I completely agree! In fact, I thought there might be something wrong with me because parts were making me laugh despite myself.
For instance, the whole family's exasperating behavior at Samson's shop ... their elaborate concern to not "be beholdin" to anyone else ... Jewel's insistence on paying for the horse food, refusals to come in for meals, insistence on sleeping out with the decaying corpse in the barn, etc. I could picture Samson's exasperation, especially when trapped between their stubbornness and his wife's equal insistence in an opposite direction.
Then finally when Samson's wife gets upset and lumps all the men together and says:
"Who's talking about him? ... Who cares about him? she asks, crying. "I just wish that you and him and all the men in the world that torture us alive and flout us dead, dragging us up and down the country--".
Samson's internal response is priceless:
"A man can't tell nothing about them. I lived with the same one fifteen years and I be durn if I can. And I imagined a lot of things coming up between us, but I be durn if I ever thought it would be a body four days dead and that a woman."
When I got to that part, I started to cry and laugh at the same time. Faulkner captures all of their foibles so well! All basically wanting good and yet at odds in these little ways, every one of them marching to a different drummer all at once ... sad enough to cry but also as funny as Tartuffe in its unveiling of those human weaknesses that so plague us as a race!
And like you Petra, the vultures following them everywhere and their refusal to break down and compromise even then ... it has deep sadness in it but also humor, again that impulse to cry and laugh at once!
Mod
Well, I'm now on page 153 out of page 261 in my copy. There are so many things I want to talk about already, but I don't want to overwhelm the thread! :)
For now just the humor below and my thoughts about Darl's river crossing section.
I was completely blown away by the disastrous river crossing. So gorgeous!! And yes Sandra, italics here definitely definitely seem again to identify which parts are present and which are written in retrospect. If you look at the tenses in the Darl section that describes the crossing (my page 140-149), all the italicized parts are written in the past tense and all the non-italicized parts are written in the present tense. I love the part with the log where he gives his impression of the coming log in the heat of the moment:
"The log appears suddenly between the two hills, as if it had rocketed .... Upon the end of it a long gout of foam hangs like the beard of an old man."
And immediately prior he gives his own view of the exact same oncoming log in retrospect, after he's had a lot of time to mull over it:
"But I did not realize the reason for the rope until I saw the log. It surged up out of the water and stood for an instant upright upon that surging and heaving desolation like Christ."
So lovely! I don't think I've ever read a book that mixed present impressions and recollections quite like this!
Interestingly, in some sections the present impressions are in italics and the recollections after passage of time are in non-italics. Other times, it's the recollections that are in italics and the present impressions in non-italics. It just seems to be Faulkner's way of identifying which parts of the section go together in terms of when that section's narrator thought or retold them.
Despite Faulkner's experimental methods, the river crossing section was almost overwhelmingly vivid and riveting. This was my favorite section so far! I'm almost certain by this point to give the book 5 stars - so striking!
I'm glad I'm not the only one to see humor, Greg. That would have been morbid. LOL! Faulkner was a genius to blend that bleakness with humor. It's dark and very effective.
Looking back it was a comedy of errors, I agree. Also noted the beginning and ending of the book was Darl,and his contentious relationship with Jewel. Jewel I though was the most compassionate of the group. It also stuck me that dead or alive, their mother was in charge.
Mod
I do agree Diane, though I was impressed by the different ways Faulkner showed the emotions of the other children as well.
I find myself wondering about Cash. Jewel's feelings were there to see, on his agitated surface, but I wonder if the great elaborate care Cash took with the coffin might've been partly his way of showing his care even though on the surface he appeared cold. Also, when they were crossing the river, he wanted Darl to jump while he stayed with the coffin - it seemed like that too might've been an unelaborated act of love on his part. Perhaps Cash feels things deeper than he seems to?
And then Vardaman's tantrum (driving away Peabody's horses) portrayed the depth of his childish feeling as well. Did anyone catch how old Vardaman was? From the way his perspective was written, I'm thinking quite young, His lack of basic understanding made his sections almost disorienting at times. I have a vague recollection he's supposed to be older, but from the halting and disoriented perspective, I was almost thinking four or five.
Diane S ☔ wrote: "It also stuck me that dead or alive, their mother was in charge."
Definitely Diane, in that she's the one who kept things running. I wonder if Dewey Dell's going to have a lot of burden placed on her now, with her mother gone?
I think Vardaman is about 10 (?) but can't remember where I got that impression. That reminds me: somewhere in Addie's sections, it mentions that she gave Anse 3 children. I count 4: Cash, Darl, Dewey Dell and Vardaman. Did I miss another affair at some point?
Other than Dewey Dell, I got the impression that there was a lot of feeling in the kids. Jewel got agitated, Cash showed his caring through his carpentry, Vardaman had tantrums of grief and Darl tries to cremate his mother to put her to rest. It's a buried type of feeling. I guess the family isn't openly demonstrative.I think Dewey Dell is the most removed from the family (emotionally). She never really seemed involved. Of course, she had her own worries and, at sixteen, a pregnancy is a big worry. I don't know if she has the backbone or gumption to rule the family ....maybe her own once the child is born but not the others.
I suppose it could be the new Mrs Bundren who rules the roost. Anse won't take that role on, I don't think.
Yeah, I've seen talk elsewhere that perhaps Vardaman isn't that young, rather he's mildly retarded so he seems younger than he is actually. But I haven't given it too much thought. He definitely is kooky, but all the children are somewhat "touched".I think Addie says she gave Anse 3 children and not 4 because she had Dewey Dell to negate Jewel so that leaves Cash, Darl and Vardaman.
Mod
That's an interesting thought Sandra - it hadn't occurred to me, but it does fit. Perhaps Vardaman does have a mild mental disability. All that fish stuff seems over the top for a child of 10 (thanks Petra, I thought I'd read he was older!). The children are all "touched" as you say, but he's the only one that doesn't seem to follow logic or express himself coherently. I like that explanation.
Mod
Ah, a new Mrs Bundren - that makes sense, if Anse was able to snag one (which I guess he does later). I definitely don't think Anse would ever take care of himself!
Not sure about the 3 children thing. Maybe as Sandra says, Anse considers Jewel hers and never his; so Anse doesn't claim him as a son of his. I'd assumed they were all his biologically though. At least I haven't seen anything yet that leads me to believe conclusively otherwise.
By the way, a family tree would've been nice in the inside flap of the book!! It took a number of sections before I could piece together all the relationships and I ended up reading some of the beginning sections twice for that reason.
Greg, if you haven't finished yet, we should hold off on the spoilers! Sorry, I thought we were all finished reading. It makes sense that Vardaman is slightly handicapped. Dewey Dell is 16, so while Vardaman could be 10, he's probably more likely between 12-14 and the fish incident was youngish, even for 10.
Sandra, that makes sense, too about Addie giving Anse 3 kids. It's a strange arithmetic (view spoiler) but this is one strange family.
Petra wrote: "Greg, if you haven't finished yet, we should hold off on the spoilers! Sorry, I thought we were all finished reading. It makes sense that Vardaman is slightly handicapped. Dewey Dell is 16, so wh..."
Petra, Greg told us to just carry on without spoilers, and he'd ignore the comments re bits he hasn't read,
Re number of children, I thought Jewel wasn't Anse's biological child? But that still leaves 4 doesn't it?
It's a book I may reread, because I think I missed a lot of things this time,
Sandra, I like your comment about the absurd lengths we go to in order to reach a self imposed goal. It's definitely a characteristic I have!
How much do you think Anse's desire to make the journey is to do with Addie's request, and his much is it his desire to get his new teeth?
Definitely some humour in the book. It was a bit surreal at times, it occasionally reminded me of Twin Peaks.
Gill wrote: "Re number of children, I thought Jewel wasn't Anse's biological child? But that still leaves 4 doesn't it?.."True. Addie said, though, that she gave Anse 3 kids; that was my question (I also count 4). I like Sandra's explanation of weird arithmetic.
As I was reading, I thought that Anse's desire to accomplish Addie's request was somehow mixed up with a belated feeling of responsibility, honor and respect. Perhaps I'm giving him too much credit. He doesn't seem to have respect for other people's property (ie: Jewel's horse).
One of the things I laughed at was his ability to get a strange woman to fall enough for him to buy him teeth (I don't think he had the cash himself, did he?). I mean....it would be a cold day in hell before I bought teeth for a man I didn't know and thought about marrying him and leaving my comfy little house for.
Anse took 10 dollars from Dewey Dell to use to buy the teeth. I don't whether that was enough to cover the cost.
Mod
Oh, and I just got to Addie's section, the one you were talking about with the weird arithmetic. It's very surreal and vague, but I agree with all of you. It sounds like perhaps she did have an affair with some man in the woods (and bear Jewel from that affair). Not super clear but that seems the likeliest interpretation of "While I waited for him in the woods ... I would think of him dressed in sin. I would think ... of me as dressed also in sin, he the more beautiful since the garment which he had exchanged for sin was sanctified."
Addie sounds like a piece of work in that section, how she whipped the other children because they didn't feel like hers, because they "violated her aloneness," how she never loved them. I'm not clear if Addie has a touch of mental illness or if this is a sort of severe post-partum depression. But this darkness in Addie seems to have been instrumental in forming her children to be who they are.
What does everyone else make of this lovely, heretical, and disturbing section? I'm fascinated by the heretical parts about the lover in the woods:
"... the sin more utter and terrible since he was the instrument ordained by God who created the sin, to sanctify that sin He had created."
Greg wrote: "Petra, yes, don't worry about spoilers - I've been savoring this and taking it slow, but this is the sort of book more about the experience than the plot. I'm getting close to done anyway (on page ..."This is a bit difficult re your query at the end, Greg. I hope it suffices to say that it will become clear later in the book what it means.
Addie married Anse to get away from kids (she was teaching, I believe). She hated those kids. I don't know why she would be any different with her own kids. The difference she felt between "the others" and Jewel was that she loved (lusted? somehow felt something for?) her lover and she never had that with Anse, I think. Therefore, the kids that came from Anse, were also not loved or tolerated anymore than the kids she taught. They just weren't a part of her; while Jewel was.
Come to think of it....the child Addie negated to counteract Jewel is the child that seems the most detached from the events in this book and who is herself in the family way. I wonder if Dewey Dell will feel any love or connection with her child?
I think Anse 60% genuinely wanted to do the right thing and bury Addie with her family and 40% wanted to get his teeth. Perhaps I'm being a little too generous!Anse stole the 10 dollars from DeweyDell and also stole money from Cash. And he saved nickels and dimes throughout the years to save for his teeth.
(view spoiler)
Anse also basically stole Jewel's horse. I think making Anse travel to bury her was her revenge on him. Showing effort after her death for the lack of effort while he was alive.
Mod
The difference she felt between "the ot..."
That sounds right Petra, but it still seems pretty monstrous to me!
People can't help how they feel--maybe she can't truly love her children with Anse--but when she describes whipping them with a switch so their blood mixes with hers and they can therefore feel slightly a part of her, that's fairly extreme! That's veering in psychologically disturbed territory for me.
I like how you say "loved (lusted? somehow felt something for?) her lover." There's something weird and almost fetishising about it Her feelings for Jewel also are odd in that way. She talks to Cora about Jewel "redeeming" her in such an odd way that Cora thinks she's talking about Christ. And this odd language about her lover "sanctifying" sin ... there's something complex going on here. Or to put it another way, if I was the Bundren family psychologist, I'd start by talking to Addie. She seems to be the center, the root.
Mod
..."
Looking forward to it Gill - I should be done in a day or two Sandra, I'll read your spoiler after I finish. :)
Mod
"She looks at us. Only her eyes seem to move. It's like they touch us, not with sight or sense, but like the stream from a hose touches you, the stream at the instant of impact as dissociated from the nozzle as though it had never been there."
"...enclosed in a thin nimbus of fire ... slaps at the widening crimson-edged holes that bloom like flowers in his undershirt."
Also, the smaller observations of human foibles were absolutely spot on .. for instance the self-satisfaction and sanctimoniousness of Cora's religiosity, possibly a result of her sensitivity to her own childlessness? ... also the hilariously accurate renditions of marital foibles between Samson & Rachel ... even the way Whitfield tries to justify & deceive himself about his own motives; that also feels abolutely true and human ... Anse's selfishness feels all too true as well. There's much perceptiveness in this book in all the small details!
But ...
Some of the larger and more abrupt twists in character behavior felt a bit histrionic, not quite right down deep in the bones. I feel arrogant saying this, being that this is Faulkner for goodness sakes, but it's how I feel.
For instance, I get that Dewey Dell resents Darl's awareness of her trist with Lafe, but when she suddenly "jumped on [Darl] like a wild cat ... scratching and clawing at him like a wild cat," it just felt odd. Yes, she's under enormous emotional & psychological pressure with the pregnancy and all, but it still doesn't feel quite right. It wasn't quite set up in all that came before. I didn't feel a buried hatred for Darl in what came before, nothing so extreme as this. Usually I think the best character behaviors have a feel of inevitability about them, that this character at this time couldn't possibly have done anything else. I just don't feel that way about this odd outburst on Dewey Dell's part.
Likewise, Darl's setting the barn on fire feels a bit off to me too. Sure enough, riding around with a decaying body for so many days is enough to make a person snap, and logically, yes, he's supposedly perceived as "odd" by most people. We're told by Cash that Darl's behavior in general isn't so odd in itself (and I'd agree, it isn't - he generally seems practically thoughtful in how he behaves), but Cash indicates there's something undefinably peculiar in his expression that people react too. So I suppose I should feel prepared for this sudden snapping on Darl's part, but for him to do this - to set the barn on fire with all the animals still inside doesn't feel quite right to me. It doesn't feel like the Darl I've gotten to know. He didn't want to leave his brother Cash even when he was in danger of drowning; he asks twice before he jumps. He helps Jewel on several occasions as well. I feel darkness in Darl, but not quite this kind of Darkness.
It makes me think of Faulkner's short story "A Rose for Emily" (though I liked the story), there's something a bit sensationalistic (and perhaps a little false feeling) in these strange, extreme behaviors he trots out, as though he unveils them for effect at the last moment like a magician pulling away a covering cloth and gesturing with his hands. It's startling, exciting to behold, but it still feels like a trick. And his writing is so lovely & perceptive, I don't want these few tricks to distract me.
I can't give it less than 5 stars though; the writing is so extraordinary!
I haven't been able to participate in the discussion as much as I wanted to because of university. But I'm almost done and here are my thoughts:The writing is wonderful, and probably my favourite part of the book. The characters I couldn't sympathise with so much, and honestly they weren't that appealing. And as for the story I have mixed feelings; on one hand it's overwhelmingly depressing, but on the other, it's powerful in its own way.
I agree with what Greg said about it being a bit sensationalistic, I think that sums it up nicely.
There are phrases or words in this that I will long remember. Begrudge and behold and how they were constantly used. My mother is a fish and Jewels is a horse.
It was off the wall things like this, the unexpected that made this book for me. The little secrets and the kindnesses that made this so human a story.
Mod
I like the way you put this Diane!
And Charbel, I certainly agree about the writing and to some extent about the characters as well.
Mod
A few things that bug me. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Darl s..."
I noticed that too Sandra about the earlier reference to Mrs. Bundren when they're parked in front of the house waiting to borrow the spade. At the time I'd assumed it was a relative of Addie's, but now I'm puzzled. What does everyone think about this? It is odd. Petra, I agree that Faulkner often mixes different time frames in the storytelling, but when he does this, he usually uses italics to identify the different timeframes. And it really doesn't seem to me like this part is retrospective storytelling. So how can the kids know her as "Mrs. Bundren" already here? Thanks for bringing this up Sandra! I guess I'll have to take it as a fragment of retrospective storytelling as Petra said because it's the best explanation I can think of.
Diane S ☔ wrote: "On page 175, Addie's section. Finding it difficult to understand what she is saying, so I am starting this section over."
Diane, I had to read this section a couple times too. :)
An interesting article:http://www.semo.edu/cfs/teaching/2073...
(It also looks like an interesting website)
Here's a quote from the above article:'The real journey a reader takes in this book is not to Jefferson but deep inside the complex, conflicted, and often nightmarish thoughts of the characters. Darl’s brooding questions about identity and reality, Jewel’s pent-up anger and desire for revenge, Cash’s obsession with neatness and order, Dewey Dell’s anxiety over her personal circumstance, Vardaman’s innocent confusion over death and grief, Anse’s inner struggle between inertia and honor, Addie’s frustrations, regrets, and secrets these are the dark, hidden places explored and exposed by Faulkner’s marvelous stream-of-consciousness prose. And while to neighbors like Tull and Samson the Bundrens may appear to be a devoted family unified by a common, if quite absurd and even slightly crazy, cause, the reader knows the other, secret Bundrens: selfish, divided, frightened, dysfunctional, lonely, and, worst of all, unloving and unloved.'
Mod
'The real journey a reader takes in this book is not to Jefferson but deep inside the complex, conflicted, and often nightmarish thoughts of the characters. ..."
I agree with much of this Gill; it's very well expressed (I love it!), though I think this look "deep inside" is most successful in the smaller details of the story, in the ordinary, mundane foibles and little cruelties. I'm thoroughly convinced by those! A bit less so by a few of the startling twists towards the end but that's just my personal take.
The only thing I strongly disagree with in this quote is the "unloving and unloved" part. I really don't think so! Yes, it does seem as though the parents don't care much about their kids: Addie by her own admission only loves Jewel, and perhaps there's some kind of feeble feeling for his kids deep down in Anse somewhere, but I wouldn't call it love. It seems that in any scenario where either the kids or him had to suffer, he'd choose his own welfare over his kids every time. But the kids are different .. I strongly believe there is love there. Cash seems to care about Darl and honestly regret what happens. He was willing to take on great danger at the river in order to keep Darl safe, telling Darl to jump clear as he stayed with the mother's coffin himself. I feel some true, unspoken tenderness in Cash. And Darl seems to care for both Cash and Jewel as well. He repeatedly pleads with his father to take Cash to the doctor. He also intervenes to prevent Jewel from getting hurt in a fight, endangering himself to do it. There's real feeling there between the siblings I think. The children even have real feelings for their parents despite their faults. Jewel, Darl, and Cash all seem to care for the mother, each in their own different way after her passing.
I agree the Bundrens are "selfish, divided, frightened, dysfunctional," and "lonely," but I don't believe they're either "unloving" or "unloved," even if they can't seem to catch a break. What does everyone else think?
I think Darl and Cash genuinely love and understand each other. I think they also love the rest of the family ( in a different and lesser way) but they don't understand the rest of the family. Though Darl can see into the hearts of other people so maybe he does understand more than Cash who seems more interested in practical things that have real easily applicable solutions. Lovingly crafting his mothers coffin where she can observe what a careful job he is doing being a good example.Jewel doesn't really know how to express love. He has too much anger inside his heart and his love is mix up with cruelty.
Dewey Dell seems emotionally retarded. I don't think she loves anyone at all.
Vardaman seems too immature and lost among his confusions and obsessions to really love anyone. He loves in that childish way like "I love her because she is my mom. The end."
Addie was a lot like Jewel, her anger taking over and pushing away love but she was also too selfish to give up herself to be able to love in any real way. Finally, Anse seems too preoccupied by life and his own needs to have much regard for others. He loves in an absentminded way.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Tartuffe (other topics)Absalom, Absalom! (other topics)
The Sound and the Fury (other topics)
Absalom, Absalom! (other topics)
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(view spoiler)[To me this book is about the basic pointlessness of life (if you really think about it, we all end up in the grave, alone) and the absurd lengths we go to reach a self assigned goal. The way we force ourselves to do the right thing, even though it is the very most wrong thing (in retrospect). How we pull down others around us in our selfish pursuits, even as we try to tell ourselves how we are behaving as we should, hell, above and beyond as we should, and pat ourselves on the back in our dogged self-righteousness. The stubborn insistence that we are right about something even though the cosmos is throwing signs up left and right that we are dead wrong. The promises we keep to the dead even at the ruination of the living. The dead we probably tended to dismiss or ignore when they were still alive... Why? (hide spoiler)]