Children of Húrin by J.R.R. Tolkien

[[deleted user]]

This is our discussion of the fantasy novel....


The Children of Húrin by J.R.R. Tolkien

(2007)

Yes, thanks to the miracles of modern medicine, JRR Tolkien is still writing contemporary books. :)

[[deleted user]]

NON-SPOILER (Meta)
Just as a general observation, I'm a cynic, and quite skeptical of "found stories" from deceased authors. I figure it's just the descendents deciding they want to posthumously milk dear old dad for more money. I suppose the counterargument is that the many fans of Lord of the Rings crave more information on the background of Middle Earth alluded to there and in The Hobbit, and so these reworkings of JRR Tolkien's notes are simply proceeding to their desire.

[Phil]

G33z3r wrote: "NON-SPOILER (Meta)
Just as a general observation, I'm a cynic, and quite skeptical of "found stories" from deceased authors. I figure it's just the descendents deciding they want to posthumously mi..."

In some cases (Go Set a Watchman), there is ample cause for suspicion, but this is not one of them.

Money is a nonissue for the Tolkien estate, but artistic vision is everything. Christopher Tolkien refused a giant stack of cash to allow Peter Jackson to interpolate Silmarillion information into the Hobbit films. He would gladly revoke the movie and merchandising rights as well.

In the case of this book, the afterward by Christopher Tolkien fastidiously explains where he got which portions of the book, when they were originally written, and all the changes he made to fit them into a narrative.

Everything I have read about Christopher Tolkien supports the idea that he has abundant money and an obsession with accurately representing his father's vision.

[Andreas]

So, I tricked you into reading this "contemporary" novel. Good. Technically, it's been published 2007, and I have a wonderful hardcover edition with illustrations by Alan Lee. The story's core was built way before anybody of us - even G33z3r - was born: It must have been before 1919, when Tolkien wrote a first part of the story in the form of 2000 alliterative verses. Tolkien never managed to bring it to its final form, distracted with The Hobbit, LotR, and his work in University.

In a shorter form, it was published within The Silmarillion where it stands as one of the three great stories, together with the "Lay of Leithian" (the story of Beren and Luthien) and "The Fall of Gondolin".

Some 6,000 years later, those tales are remembered, when Gimli recites the Song of Durin in the Mines of Moria:
"The world was fair, the mountains tall,
In Elder Days before the fall
Of mighty kings in Nargothrond
And Gondolin, who now beyond
The Western Seas have passed away:
The world was fair in Durin's Day.
"

I don't know if you need to read the introduction for background information before reading the story itself.

Yes, I'm a complete Tolkien geek and I have to stop myself boring you about details :)

[Andreas]

Phil wrote: "Everything I have read about Christopher Tolkien supports the idea that he has abundant money and an obsession with accurately representing his father's vision. "

Though G33z3r's assumption is probably correct with certain other editors, I can only second your opinion, Phil.
Even if it would be solely motivated economically, I'd say "Shut up and take my money". In this case, there was lots of time invested with editing the work, and only Christopher Tolkien could do that.

[Roman]

I read children of hurin and simarillion some summers ago in english, which is not my native language. though I found it was a hard read I couldn't stop. because it was Tolkien I read. it is this special feeling :)

[Phil]

"Hador Goldenhead was a lord of the Edain and well-beloved by the Eldar."

Even after reading the preface and having read the Silmarillion almost 20 years ago, I found the first sentence perplexing and annoying. It reads like a Mad Lib of out-of-context proper nouns. It might as well say, "Glenda was a witch of the Munchkins and well-beloved by the Quadlings," or "Maud'Dib was a Kwisatz Haderach of the Fremen and well-beloved by the Artreides." This is exactly what I was afraid of when I picked up this book and stepped out of the shallow end of Tolkien books.

Yet, as Roman comments above, it is a special feeling. As I worked my way into Chapter Two, I became more and more engrossed in the book, and ultimately loved it. That's pretty much my experience with all Tolkien books. The Hobbit starts off with a long tea party, LotR starts off with Gandalf and rattling on and on about Elf history, and the Silmarillion starts off with a Tolkienized Book of Genesis. Pretty much all of them start off dense before you get to the good parts. Except maybe Farmer Giles of Ham.

Anyone who's put off by that first chapter would benefit from flipping to the appendices to review the genealogies and the list of names.

[Phil]

Andreas wrote: "I don't know if you need to read the introduction for background information before reading the story itself."

Not only did I have to read the front matter, but some of the back matter to get into the swing of it.

I was on a Hobbit thread in another group, and one of the mods speculated as to whether The Hobbit was inspired by L. Frank Baum. I responded probably not, and Christopher Tolkein's notes bear me out- this thing basically started as a Beowulf fan fic. An insanely well-realized Beowulf fan fic.

[Andreas]

I see that, Phil. You'd have a similar effect with Malazan 5 without the previous books or some similar book out of the middle of a series. It is all about the context lore of the Silmarillion - which I know by heart.

Re: Beowulf: A Translation and Commentary is a well-worth read, as well.

[Mary]

I remember my first attempt to read The Silmarillion. It was the tale of Turin that bogged me down.

[[deleted user]]

Phil wrote: "In some cases (Go Set a Watchman), there is ample cause for suspicion, but this is not one of them...."

Okay, I'll take your word for that. (In addition to Watchmen, I was also thinking of the unending Dune and Pern sequels.)

[[deleted user]]

Phil wrote: "The Hobbit starts off with a long tea party, LotR starts off with Gandalf and rattling on and on about Elf history..."

I don't know about that. The Hobbit starts with a charming, oft-quoted discourse on hobbit holes.

I thought Children of Húrin started with what Bible scholars call the begats. Which is to say, as dully charmlessly as the Silmarillion. (in other news,... my voice transcription software knows the word, "Silmarillion". I wasn't betting on that.)

[Phil]

G33z3r wrote: "Which is to say, as dully charmlessly as the Silmarillion."

To me, the Silmarillion was a three star book, because that's how much I enjoyed reading it. This one is more like four to four and a half, and the thing holding it back is the sloggishness of that first chapter.

[Andreas]

It's true, the first couple of paragraphs in chapter 1 are a ridiculous amount of names. On the other hand, they anchor the story in the greater context and relationship to the other two central stories, the Fall of Gondolin and The Lay of Leithian.

It is a short chapter, but we learn a lot about Turin's character - his love and pity to Sador "Labadal" and his sister Lalaith - both will become important in the later course of the book. But also of his dark mood.

It mentions the one central topic of the story: "What is fate?" After all, Turin's name was also "Turambar", the "Master of Fate" (from Quenya Tur- 'mastery', and ambar 'fate'). Here we see the connection to the Finnish poem of the Kalevala with the tragic protagonist Kullervo, paralleling Turin in many details. It is known from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that Tolkien wrote the story as a kind of adaption to the Kalevala.

[[deleted user]]

Andreas wrote: "It's true, the first couple of paragraphs in chapter 1 are a ridiculous amount of names...."

Yeah. When I started reading (I hadn't read it before), the beginning really caused consternation with all its genealogy. I know this is one of the "insider" books, for Tolkien exegetes who can't get enough of Middle Earth.

It did reasonably soon turn into a narrative story. I guess I never found Turin a very compelling character. The narrative was rather slow at unveiling the stakes. But this is basically — well, almost a footnote or elaboration of a section of The Silmarillion, a side story to a side story, if you will. Turin Is neither cool like Gandalf & Aragorn, nor cute like hobbits. (I never liked Boromir, anyway.)

Sorry for comparing it to Lord of the Rings, but that's the touchstone for Tolkien...

One of the things Children of Hurin doesn't have (that LotR did) was that sense of being embedded in history. Mind you, I understand it doesn't have that because it's implicitly embedded in the Silmarillion, so how much history do you want? Still, treating Children of Hurin solely on its own merits, it's very insular. (I might've liked it better if I read the Silmarillion more recently.)

[Phil]

When I read this book, I was looking for Tolkien's mindset. I think it must have shifted a lot between The Hobbit and Children of Hurin. I read recently that he became very harsh about the works of George MacDonald later in his life, even though he had been an early champion of them. In fact, I recently reread The Princess and the Goblin on the strength of Tolkien's praise. I quite liked it, and it made me curious to see what kind of grumpy old man would turn his back on such a delightful book.

The front part of Hurin is littered with noble but futile battles and good people being tortured without rescue. If the Hobbit was written as a chipper children's book, and LotR was written as a weighty contemplation of good vs. evil, then this book goes beyond good and evil to question the point of existence. Time after time, Turin argues with his comrades over whether it is worth fighting when you know you will probably lose. It's a grim question that I don't think Aragorn would have struggled with.

[Sarah]

One could ask if The Children of Húrin was needed. After all, we have the outline of the story in The Silmarillion.

For a fan like me, the answer is a most definite yes.

Unlike The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, which are hero stories, The Children of Húrin is a tragedy. Throughout the story there is a sense of things falling apart, of the ending of an era. This adds even greater depth to the history of Middle Earth. In creating a complete mythology, I think there is room for both tragedies and hero stories, as there would be in any history.

As an aside, did anybody find something akin to The Book of Job in this story? Húrin will not bow to Morgoth, and it is his family that suffer. This struck me because I have on my reference shelf, The Jerusalem Bible. J.R.R. Tolkien assisted with The Book of Job.

[Mary]

Tolkien, for all the "eucatastrope" in "On Fairy Stories", was in many respects a very tragic author. The Hobbit, of course, was written to amuse his children but still had the deaths at the end. LOTR had Frodo unable to live in the Shire at the end.

Silmarillion lets that tragedy come to the front.

[Andreas]

G33z3r wrote: "a side story to a side story, if you will. Turin Is neither cool like Gandalf & Aragorn, nor cute like hobbits. (I never liked Boromir, anyway.)

Sorry for comparing it to Lord of the Rings, but that's the touchstone for Tolkien...

One of the things Children of Hurin doesn't have (that LotR did) was that sense of being embedded in history. Mind you, I understand it doesn't have that because it's implicitly embedded in the Silmarillion, so how much history do you want? Still, treating Children of Hurin solely on its own merits, it's very insular."

There are a lot of items where I have to disagree. Let's start :)

The story isn't a side story of a side story. It is one of the three central stories of the older world. You'll find more references to Arda's history than in LotR - after all, there are thousand's of years of history before the story. As such, it isn't insular at all, although it is nearly a standalone.

Turin's coolness factor. Don't want to spoiler too much. But he wields a talking sword, is a captain of the Elves, slays his enemies, and does all sorts of forbidden things. I'd say that qualifies as cool. Cute he ain't, that's given.

LotR as the touchstone - depends on who you ask. If you'd have asked the author himself he'd probably have said that it is his older work that he invested more into. After all, look at the names on his tombstone.

Sarah wrote: "As an aside, did anybody find something akin to The Book of Job in this story?"

There are loads of biblical references in the Silmarillion but I don't think that we need to find a Christian parody everywhere in Tolkien's work. In this case, the author clearly sympathizes more with Turin, and the story is clearly not about Theodicy. But if you're searching for similar references, I'd like to add the story of Finwe and Miriel (mom and dad of Feanor).

Mary wrote: "LOTR had Frodo unable to live in the Shire at the end"

Lot's of his works have tragic endings, i.e. the hero suffers and dies invoking a kind of catharsis in the reader. Turin Turambar is just one sample, Feanor would be another one.

But there are also a lot of happy endings - as with Beren and Lúthien taking the Silmaril, Eärendil ending as a the evening star, Frodo Baggins returning home.

I wouldn't describe LotR as a tragedy. Yes, a couple of heroes don't feel very well (Boromir comes to mind). But besides of the quest fulfilled, one hero is really shining: Aragorn went from Strider to King after the seat of Gondor was empty for some 2,000 years.

[Mary]

Beren and Luthien end up dead. First he dies, and then she has to sacrifice her immortality to keep him.

Frodo can't stay home.

His happy endings are Farmer Giles of Ham and Leaf by Niggle

[Phil]

Mary wrote: "Beren and Luthien end up dead. First he dies, and then she has to sacrifice her immortality to keep him.

Frodo can't stay home.

His happy endings are Farmer Giles of Ham and [book:Lea..."

It looks like I'm in the minority. My thesis was that Tolkein became gradually less optimistic throughout his career, but it sounds like most people, especially people who've read more deeply on it than I have, regard Hurin as one facet of a highly consistent work. Where I perceive change, they perceive just a different part of the same vision.

[Mary]

Remember that Turin was one of the first stories he ever wrote in the Middle Earth universe.

[Phil]

Mary wrote: "Remember that Turin was one of the first stories he ever wrote in the Middle Earth universe."

Yes, what I'd need to do to answer my question is compare this version to the pre-Hobbit versions. The excerpt in the appendix isn't really enough for me to tell where his focus was in the early drafts.

Sarah compared this to the Book of Job. It does have that atmosphere to it. Did it always have that atmosphere? Or was it a less morally complex story when he was younger?

[Niels]

G33z3r wrote: "One of the things Children of Hurin doesn't have (that LotR did) was that sense of being embedded in history. Mind you, I understand it doesn't have that because it's implicitly embedded in the Silmarillion, so how much history do you want? Still, treating Children of Hurin solely on its own merits, it's very insular. (I might've liked it better if I read the Silmarillion more recently.) "

I got the excact same feeling.
I kinda liked the plot of the story but it just dragged on with "then he said this, then that other dude did that, and then there was a big-ass dragon and some other stuff", because Christopher Tolkien apparently can't write a relateable character if his life depended on it.

Which left me with the suspicion, that he is just some useless rich kid, trying to steal some credit in the literary community by piggy-backing on his fathers work.

[Sarah]

I see it very differently.

More than for anybody else, Middle Earth became Christopher’s legacy. He grew up with the stories. He assisted his dad with the manuscripts later in life. Maybe he tried to remain too faithful to his dad’s work, when further revision would have been a good idea. If so, it must have been a difficult balancing act. After all, his dad would have made further revisions if he had completed the work for publication.

[Sarah]

Phil wrote: "Sarah compared this to the Book of Job. It does have that atmosphere to it. Did it always have that atmosphere? Or was it a less morally complex story when he was younger?"

The earlier version goes back to the WWI era. It is easy to see how he might be inspired to write a tragedy at that time. The revision period in the 1950s coincides with his work on the Bible stories.

I have no idea if that influenced his thinking. I find the timing interesting though.

I’m with you, Phil. It would be fascinating to know how the versions changed.

[Mary]

check out Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth then

[Phil]

Mary wrote: "check out Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth then"

Sounds like a good idea! I was reluctant to try more Tolkien because the Silmarillion was so uneven, but I enjoyed Hurin so much that Unfinished Tales is looking really good to me.

[Mary]

It is definitely more narrative and less summary than the Silmarillion.

[Andreas]

Phil wrote: "Mary wrote: "check out Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth then"

Sounds like a good idea! I was reluctant to try more Tolkien because the Silmarillion was so uneven, but I enj..."

In addition, you might want to check The History of Middle Earth: Part Three (The Lays of Beleriand) which contains the tale of Túrin in alliterative verses, just to get a taste of Tolkien's mastery of language in a different form. I think, it was written around 1918.

[Laura]

I have to admit that I read the Silmarillion a few years back and really struggled with it, so as someone who is not a hard-core Tolkien fan, I was worried that Children of Hurin would be a similar experience. I found it to be a much easier read, though I did have trouble keeping all the names straight. I read the Kindle version, and it would have been nice to have a paper copy so that I could more easily refer to the list of names at the back of the book.

[Phil]

My experience was pretty much identical to yours, Laura. I was lukewarm on the Silmarillion, but I got a lot out of Children of Hurin. I agree that the Kindle version made it a little difficult. I was OK with flipping back to the appendices, but the footnotes were not properly formatted and the map was worthless.

[Andreas]

Sarah wrote: "The earlier version goes back to the WWI era. It is easy to see how he might be inspired to write a tragedy at that time. "
Speaking of WWI influence on Tolkien, there is a great book Tolkien and the Great War: The Threshold of Middle-earth which I highly recommend. I just checked and found a couple of references to Túrin in the index.
The second chapter is about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. WWI began for Tolkien with four months of the murderous and epic battle of the Somme where more than a million soldiers were killed and two of Tolkien's friend were among them. "We all were orcs," he once told after that. Check out also some articles by John Garth online.

[Phil]

"I wasted my time," he said, "though the hours seemed pleasant. But all such things are short-lived; and the joy in the making is their only true end, I guess." (Chapter IV)

This is my favorite line from the book. It speaks to those moments when you do things to have them done well, but with no expectation of benefiting from them. That's probably how Tolkien felt as he created those piles of incomplete post-LotR drafts.

[P.H.]

I found the book to be a good extension of the original from the Silmarillion - at least what I remember. The opening is a bit mundane but then I read a short story by Martin in the anthology Rogues and found the piece utterly disappointing as flat historical narrative so this book satisfies the LotR-phile in me.

[Nadine]

I read this book several years ago, but it is still by far my favorite book. It can be dark and sad at times, but it keeps you hooked right up until the final page. Tolkien was truly a master of story telling.

[Phil]

In Chapter III, Hurin says to Morgoth, "Neither are you the most mighty; for you have spent your strength upon yourself and wasted it in your own emptiness." This reminded me of many parts of the New Testament, especially the story of the wealthy young man in Mark 10:17-31.

There has been some debate over the influence of Tolkien's religion on his writing, but I have always sensed it there. I believe Tolkien largely denied it, but then again, he was resistant to interpretations in general.

[Mary]

Nah, Tolkien thought his writing was Catholic, he just didn't want it to be explicitly so.

[Andreas]

Tolkien didn't like his work to be interpreted as allegory of any kind. But as far as I know, he never denied influences - from the Kalevala, from Norse, Celtic, and Greek mythology, the Arthurian legend, and also from his Catholic belief.

[Deeptanshu]

This book has been sitting in my to read pile for a couple of years but for some reason I just cant seem to make enough time in my day to actually read it.
Part of the reason is that I already know the plot, having read the Silmarillion ages ago.