The Mists of Avalon -- Buddy Read

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

I think the movie you are referring to is Yentl

[Candace]

Kathy wrote: "I think the movie you are referring to is Yentl"

That is it. I watched it years ago but I remember enjoying it. Thank you!

[Candace]

I feel like I'm reading an Ayn Rand book where I feel like someone is preaching their philosophy of life to me. But in this case it feels like more of a spiritual life lesson. I just meant to look at some of the GR reviews in order to see if the book moves away from this , big mistake, I came across the information on the author alluded to above. I have always tried to tell myself to separate the artist from the art, but I've never been able to do that and even writing it sounds absurd. The created is part of the creator. I'm going to continue for now, but I find this exceptionally difficult. After seeing that little bit, as an attorney, I of course wanted to see evidence and it is there. So disappointing.

[Phil]

Candace wrote: "I feel like I'm reading an Ayn Rand book.."

That's a bit of a low blow. Rand was so clumsy that she could barely sustain a coherent narrative structure. This book is a well-crafted narrative with strong ideological underpinnings, a bit more like The Stranger. Although, honestly, the balance of idea-to-story reminds me more of a Michael Crichton book.

As far as the allegations, they definitely color my reading of the book, even when I try to keep them separate.

[Desertorum]

I´m so behind with this one, I try to catch up this weekend. Somehow I see myself struggle to read or even start reading it, I usually like this kind of literature and I´m not sure why I´m not enjoying this more...maybe it´s just little slow going and even repetitive. But I´m still interested to see what´s going to happen.

[Phil]

Desertorum wrote: "I´m so behind with this one, I try to catch up this weekend. Somehow I see myself struggle to read or even start reading it, I usually like this kind of literature and I´m not sure why I´m not enjo..."

I also have some difficulty picking it back up. I don't mind it while I'm reading, but when I look at my stack of books, other things tend to come to hand faster.

It's partly the chapter length. My life (two small children/full time job) means that I often read in 15 minute bursts, and I get disappointed when I can't finish a chapter in a sitting.

It's also the nature of the book. I'm already familiar with the story. Even though the perspective is different, I have a pretty good idea of where this is heading. Also, I'm not particularly "into" any of the characters. That pretty much leaves theme. I'm keen to see where Bradley is going with her concepts of feminism. It's just that theme by itself is kind of a weak enticement to read a book of this length.

[Phil]

Hey, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for reading this with me. I put it down for about a week there, and probably would have abandoned it for the umpteenth time if I wasn't looking forward to talking about it on GR.

I'm in part 2, chapter 6, and I'm surprised by how this the (very minor spoilers) Guinevere/Lancelet thing is being handled. Love at first sight is a pretty corny move for a book that has been starkly unsentimental for so long. I'm starting to remember why I found the middle portions of The Once and Future King such a chore.

This also reminds me of that moment in War for the Oaks when I realized I'm just not the target audience.

[Philina]

Glad to help Phil ;).
Well, as the basis of the story is basically a fairytale I can forgive the love at first sight thing.
I'm in Book Three by now; reading ahead, because I won't have time for reading around Easter.
I'm wondering if Gawain is ever going to meet the Green Knight and if there's ever going to be a quest for the Holy Grail. Could it be the cup which - next to the sword - is part of the treasures of Avalon?
At 61% I'm quite sick of Gwyn. I try to sympathize with her and try to put myself in her shoes, but I somehow don't succeed. The part about being stuck in a marriage you don't want I understand, but she's just so passive...and so intolerant.
Sorry for moaning! What do you think of Gwyn?
At one point I thought that her sister Isotta might become Isolde, but then she died.

[Philina]

What I took from it so far compares quite well to what Aristotle said about virtue: that virtue does not lie in the extreme.
Gwyn and Viviane are both extremely "religious" and therefore, in my opinion, equally bad. Because of this extreme they have stopped seeing people as human beings with human dignity. They sacrifice pawns (=humans) for the greater religious good.
Then, there is Taliesien who seems to me to be the truely enlightened one. He is kind, human and respectful towards everybody and seems to believe in the unity of the universe. He stribes for peace and understanding while the extreme players naturally jockey for war. By being so they hurt all humankind.

[Philina]

I find it very interesting that the feminist Zimmer writes a book in which the enlightened one is male.

[Phil]

*Part 2 Spoiler*

I just finished Part 2, Chapter 7. Morgaine has unsatisfying sex and responds by turning into a giant and yelling about it. This book is getting weird.

[Phil]

Emily wrote: "Since we're talking about Gwyn, I was wondering what everyone thinks about the Christian characters overall. There is a lot of chatter about this book being anti Christian, and looking at the main ..."

I pretty much agree with your sentiments, Emily. I think the portrayal of Christianity is patronizing but not outright negative. You could say that the Christian characters are unlikeable, but that doesn't mean much when all the characters are unlikeable.

"I also don't think that she necessarily shows the form of old paganism that she has penned her in a completely positive light, even though she seems more sympathetic towards that philosophy (perhaps in part because this story is told mostly through Morgaine's eyes). Viviane is forever meddling with the lives of other people against their own happiness, even the people she deeply loves, Morgause is self serving and overly ambitious, a rape of a young girl witnessed by Morgaine during the Great Marriage ceremony was seen as just being part of the will of the Goddess."

The evidence you list sounds repugnant to many readers, but MZB may have approved of it. The only thing keeping me going at this point (aside from this thread) is the curiosity about whether this book will ever criticize the Avalon lifestyle. So far, the answer is no.

[Philina]

I disagree, Phil.
I think that the Avalon lifestyle is already criticized implicitly by Morgaine's sufferring when she is used as Viviane's pawn. Of course she loves Viviane and does not generally disapprove of this lifestyle, but she suffers inspite of that. This led at least me to being very critical.

I'm at 67% now, but won't most likely not be able to read the next two weeks. :(

[Desertorum]

I still struggling and I think it´s mainly because I was expecting it to be more about adventure. Now I feel it´s about the religions. Every other discussion they are having is about that. And first it felt really gloomy and I felt sorry for them, but now I feel that it´s almost absurd how difficult everything is; everybody is in love with the "wrong" person and having sex with people they should have. Okay, little exaggerating here :) But I´m starting to think, if I will finish this or not :(

[Phil]

Desertorum wrote: "I still struggling and I think it´s mainly because I was expecting it to be more about adventure. Now I feel it´s about the religions. Every other discussion they are having is about that. And firs..."

I'm about 40% in, and it's picking up a little. The Saxons are invading, so there's some suspense over whether Gwen will get ambushed and whether Arthur can defeat the Saxons once and for all. There's also some suspense over what the heck happened to Morgaine. She just kind of disappears for 50+ pages. That's a good technique that I've seen used other places- Game of Thrones comes to mind.

Something that puzzles me about the religious debates is their irrelevance. For example, characters argue about whether or not women are allowed to sing. That debate may have occurred in the 1000s, but why are we reading about it now? Did MZB think this was a compelling issue when the novel was published?

[Desertorum]

Sadly I must confess that gave up, too many good books there waiting for me ;) I just didn´t enjoy this at all. I really thought I would and really wanted to. There are no one reason but combination of many things; the plot was not interesting enough and I did not care what happened to the characters. Many irrelevant debates about religion. Too many "bad" things happening, like I said before, it started to feel annoying.

I hope you have fare (and like it) better than me and I´ll be reading your thoughts about it! :)

[Philina]

Desertorum wrote: "Sadly I must confess that gave up, too many good books there waiting for me ;) I just didn´t enjoy this at all. I really thought I would and really wanted to. There are no one reason but combinatio..."

Don't worry yourself! Even I am fighting. There are parts which are really good and I'm totally enraptured by the plot, but most parts are quite lengthy and very repetitive. I'm going to finish it, though. I need it for my Bingo and maybe something amazing will happen in the last part...

[Phil]

Phil wrote: "Desertorum wrote: "Sadly I must confess that gave up, too many good books there waiting for me ;) I just didn´t enjoy this at all. I really thought I would and really wanted to. There are no one re..."

There were a few chapters that flew by- Morgaine in fairyland, Gwen on the road- and a lot that drag- like the one that introduces Gwydion (Mordred). I'm also fighting my way through in hopes of better things. I'm past the 50% mark, which usually means I have enough momentum to finish.

[Phil]

Phil wrote: "I find it very interesting that the feminist Zimmer writes a book in which the enlightened one is male."

This is a polarizing book. Thanks for hanging in there, Phil!

Now that I'm a little more caught up with you (63%), I have some responses to your comments.

First of all, yeah, I cut Gwen a lot of slack for most of the book, but I'm sick of her by now.

Second, you raise an interesting point about the male characters. They do seem to be a lot more reasonable than the women. I have a theory.

The men are not really the POV characters- that's mainly Igraine and Morgaine, with sometimes Viviane or Gwen for part of a chapter. Men don't get much background development until Kevin talks about his life with Morgaine about the 50% mark. Until then, the male characters are just kind of forces of nature. Also, it's not until nearly the halfway mark that two male characters have a conversation with each other. (Lance, Arthur and Uriens talk strategy before the big battle with the Saxons.)

So my theory is that men in this book serve the function that women have served in many other books- they are mirrors for the protagonists. If Kevin argues with Morgaine, the focus is not on him being reasonable so much as on her being tortured and indecisive.

[Philina]

Well, I guess as we are in the last reading segment now, we could discuss the book as a whole.


And Phil, I love your theory!

[Phil]

I finished yesterday morning. My more extended thoughts are over here:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

In general, I agree with Phil (first Phil) that Bradley's message has more to it than Christians bad/Avalon good. The characters ended up have more development and arc than I had anticipated. In general, the book has more depth than a lot of people (myself included) give it credit for.

My first impression is that it was exhausting and drawn-out, but there was so much going on in those last two chapters that I might need more time to reflect.

Thanks for reading this with me everybody! I've been trying to get through it for almost two years.

[Philina]

I've just re-examined my highlights to re-visit all the foreshadowing prophecies. I like to do this after having read the whole book.
Most of them were really straight forward and a little too easy for the great game of interpretation (as with A Song of Ice and Fire), but one still remains a mystery to me: "only Morgause was there, wearing a crown, the crown of the High Kings of all Britain." (in my ebook that's from location 2104). Any ideas on that? How could she be High Queen? Or was is really Igraine in the vision? She resembles Morgause, doens't she. I don't remember if it was Viviane's vision or Igraine's, but I strongly believe it was Igraine's during the storm at Tintagel. And she would have known the difference between herself and Morgause.
Then again: "my aunt Morgause, and all of her children are with her...there are four of them...how strange, they are all wearing crowns..." (location 2674). This crown can only be the Lothian one, right? But Gareth died before Gawaine. He never wore the Lothian crown...
Then there is the "high double crown" of Morgaine's. Does it simply represent Cornwall and Wales or does it signify something more? Like Avalong and Fairyland? Or Avalon and the realms of men (because she bore a son to King Arthur and is thus his true queen?)?
At Castle Chariot she is hailed "Morgaine, Queen of Britain". That could be an indication for "Arthur's true queen". On the other hand, it could simply mean that she is Queen of the old people, following the old religion of the Godess.

So what do you think? I love reflecting on such things. I hope you're not bored by it!

Oh, I also love the fact that the book contains all the old legends of Beowulf, Achilles, Orfeo, etc. It makes the world seem more real. Any world has a history and legends. A fictional world without it seems strange.
At one point Morgaine is spinning and she reflects that the Goddess must be a spinning woman, because women spin all through mens' life, from baby clothes to the shroud. That reminds me of that tale of the Moirai, spinning the fate of every human.

[Phil]

Phil wrote: "I've just re-examined my highlights to re-visit all the foreshadowing prophecies. I like to do this after having read the whole book.
Most of them were really straight forward and a little too eas..."

I think Bradley uses different "dimensions" or whatever to represent different strands of thought. There's a whole aspect of people's beliefs creating the reality around them. I think all these rogue crowns represent different possible realities/beliefs that ultimately do not come to fruition.

[Phil]

Thanks for reading my review and giving such thoughtful responses!

Emily wrote: " The first half was far too drawn out."

I thought the book would have worked better if it started with the Pentecost scene just over halfway through (I think it's Book 3, Chapter 3) in which Viviane gets killed. Everything else from the first half could have been covered as-needed through flashbacks. Kind of like GRRM planned to do with books 4&5 of A Song of Ice & Fire. (Side note: I went to a book signing for the purpose of punching him over choosing to write them out chronologically instead.)

Emily wrote: " Another thing I'm going to take a moment to gripe at is the concept of aging throughout this novel.."

I chalked that up to unreliable narration. The "truth" of situations shifted noticeably between the five POV characters.

Emily wrote: " I would suggest taking some time to do some research into the Arthurian characters.."

It did make me want to dust off my copy of The Once and Future King. Also, I've had Le Morte d'Arthur: King Arthur and the Legends of the Round Table lurking in the freebie section of my kindle for a long time, and I kept wanting to switch over to it to see how Malory handled things differently. Having read Avalon pushes it a little higher in my to-read pile.

[Philina]

Oh, I love reading this with you guys! Your posts are so enriching!

I do disagree on one point, though. I don't think the first part was too long. It was my favourite part! The love story between Igraine and Uther was the best in the whole book and their dream meeting on the plain with the standing stones one of my favourite scenes. I think the first part was better written than the rest. Somehow more logical and tangible and not so repetitive.

I, too, want to read the rest of the Arthurian literature. What do you think about modern retellings? I, personally, wouldn't consider Mists Arthurian "canon". Can there even be a "canon" if it's unsure if Arthur even existed at all? Can there be an original version of a fairytale which is "more true" than other versions? I always felt (and that's totally subjective) that de Troyes and Le Morte d'Arthur are the original tale and everything else dilutes, changes, "falsifies". But the key question for me right now is: Can you even "falsify" a story which is already pure fiction in itself? Or can only facts be falsified?
Is there any historical source? Maybe Historia Brittonum? But is that already fiction as well?

[Philina]

About spinning, weaving and needlework.
I think they only do those activities, Emily, because cooking and gardening would be way below their station as noble ladies. I think it's interesting that they they even spin. I've always imagined that on a level beneath embroidering and weaving.
Or were you referring to the women at Avalon?

[Phil]

Phil wrote: "Oh, I love reading this with you guys! Your posts are so enriching!"

Back at you, Phil!

I agree with Emily about the canon questions. I don't think you can have a canon version of a folk tale, but I think of Morte d'Arthur as the "classic" version. Kind of like Howard Pyle wrote the "classic" version of The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood even though the folk tales had been circulating for centuries.