Should men be part of feminist movement? No!

[James]

Can you not use patriarchy to define me...It is offensive to me as man and as individual. If you wish to criticize me and my views that is fine but please to not try to define all men by a demonizing flawed ideology. It's wouldn't be appropriate if a men did that to women. So it's not right either for women to do that for men.

[James]

That is your beliefs and they are wrong. Just like men in middle eastern countries thinking that that they can superimpose negative ideologies on women. These kind of beliefs and men and women do not help people work for equality.

[Erin]

Patriarchy is a system or ideology, not a label.

[Erin]

James wrote: "That is your beliefs and they are wrong."

So, your intention here is to do what, exactly? Browbeat us until we admit that you are right and we are wrong? I'm very sorry, James, but that is not this space. There is probably an MRA group down the hall that might fit you better. (I feel like I need to disinfect just by typing MRA. /shudder)

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

James, again, many of us have written posts giving you an explanation of patriarchy. All of which you have ignored, continuing to use the definition that you think is correct. It is not correct.

Patriarchy is a culturally constructed system based on the devaluing of femininity. Femininity is a term that may be applied to anyone, regardless of gender. Therefore, feminism fights patriarchy with the goals of dismantling the system that causes gender discrimination. Though we mainly discuss women's rights because women are disproportionately affected by gender discrimination, the eradication of harmful stereotypes, gender roles, and biases helps women and men, masculine and feminine, gender queer, etc.

That is the definition. The term patriarchy should not be offensive to someone unless they believe in and support the ongoing devaluing of femininity in both women and men. It doesn't seem like you do, so no one here is using it in an effort to offend you (unless they are using the term incorrectly).

[James]

Katelyn wrote: "James, again, many of us have written posts giving you an explanation of patriarchy. All of which you have ignored, continuing to use the definition that you think is correct. It is not correct.

P..."
Katelyn
Yes and I have read your post. and I responded to them I have not ignored them. If you would like I would repost my response to you and why i do not view feminist patriarchy as correct for human culture. I would also like to point out that i am a grad student in Phycology and evolutionary sociology so I do have some background in the subject. I have also give many links on the subject. I am not avoiding it at all.
These Ideas of Patriarchy are not correct and The ideas of patriarchy have been use in negative ways by Feminist.
Please watch this video.

https://youtu.be/LZJ5ioPPxgE

[James]

Katelyn wrote: "James, again, many of us have written posts giving you an explanation of patriarchy. All of which you have ignored, continuing to use the definition that you think is correct. It is not correct.

P..."
also believe me when I say i'm not trying to offend anyone here.

[[deleted user]]

That looks like a nice definition. Probably the most correct one.

[James]

Erin wrote: "James wrote: "That is your beliefs and they are wrong."

So, your intention here is to do what, exactly? Browbeat us until we admit that you are right and we are wrong? I'm very sorry, James, but t..."

I'm not a MRA. and no not brown beat but the disscustion did ask why do people not like Feminism...If the majority of society has a problem with a ideology they are aloud to speak out against it. and the ideology should do some soul searching and wonder honestly, why do people, both men and women object to it. Not women rights, just Feminism.

[Erin]

This is probably an exercise in futility, but I am going to attempt to use one of your statistics and explain how it is the result of patriarchy. Today is my birthday. I tell you this because for my birthday, all I want from you is to actually critically engage with what I'm about to post. That's it. Just read it, think about it, engage with it.

Your statistic: Men are 97% of combat fatalities.

In the US (the only country I am comfortable speaking about as it is the one I reside in), women were actively prohibited from engaging in combat. I know this because I was US Navy. Only in the last several years has that been turning around. Women were considered to fragile for combat zones. The idea of seeing women killed in combat was thought to be demoralizing to the men and therefore was considered a hazard to the male fighters' physical and mental welfare. Women were considered to be less capable of engaging in combat. *This was not women refusing to fight.* Women have been willing to engage in combat for the last 75 years or so. They were denied the opportunity by...wait for it...the men who were in charge of the armed forces and by the men who were in Congressional and Presidential offices. Now, if women weren't allowed to engage in combat, then of course the bulk of war casualties will be men. By infantilizing women, patriarchy has disproportionately placed men into danger. Women have been willing to fight. Men have been willing to fight along side of them. *Patriarchy* (which is not the same as men) has not allowed it until fairly recently in our history.

[[deleted user]]

Nevertheless, that assumes for example that emotions or sensitivity are feminine, and that's not true. And we used not to let women be soldiers, and that's a "men thing", so according to the definition it would be ok to be a soldier.

So maybe patriarchy is just male dominance, and that's it.

[Erin]

Adam,

Of course having emotions or being sensitive are not feminine. They are human, as we are all capable of them unless one is a sociopath. However, they system in place has *constructed* a meaning for those traits and established them as feminine. That's one of the problems feminism tries to address.

[James]

Katelyn wrote: "James, again, many of us have written posts giving you an explanation of patriarchy. All of which you have ignored, continuing to use the definition that you think is correct. It is not correct.

P..."
Oh and feminist do use Patriarchy to discriminate men.
"All men are sexist just for being men, All men are privileged just for being men, all men have Microaggressions of sexism just because they are men." Do you know how many times these ideas have come up from Feminist. Feminist try and categorize men this way...and even if it is not meant to be harmful, it leads that way. also Feminist refuse to look at woman actions or bring up any kind of negative behaviors that They might express. Not that anyone should try and stereotype anyone based on their behaviors.

[James]

I have a question for anyone reading following along. really
Do you see any truth or understanding in what i'm saying? Or do people just see me as a ass with no point?

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Adam, are you referring to my definition in what you said about femininity? I agree with you. I use femininity as a term for characteristics and behaviors that have traditionally and culturally been seen as more appropriate for women to exhibit. But that doesn't mean that these associations are correct, and people can have "feminine" features regardless of gender. If the feminist movement succeeds in eradicating these gender roles, biases, and stereotypes, we hopefully won't need to use the words masculine and feminine anymore at all. In fact, they're redundant, aren't they? There are always more description words that would get the same message across, oftentimes more accurately and efficiently!

[[deleted user]]

Erin wrote: "Adam,

Of course having emotions or being sensitive are not feminine. They are human, as we are all capable of them unless one is a sociopath. However, they system in place has *constructed* a mean..."

Sure, but look at the definition of patriarchy she gave. It seems correct at first but it's not. That is a consequence of patriarchy, not its definition.

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

1) All men are sexist for being men - Well, that's plain nonsense. Whoever defends such argument is equally wrong and, in my opinion, also missing the point about feminism. It's just as if you said, 'oh yeah I am a real connoisseur of classical music', but then you could not tell Bach apart from Mozart to save your own life. You can call yourself a connoisseur but people would say otherwise, right?
2) All men have privileges just for being men - I am sorry, but this is entirely true. Again, plenty of facts to prove it.

[Dale]

Perhaps I'm not knowledgeable enough to really take a stance, but what's wrong with men supporting women?

[James]

Katelyn wrote: "Adam, are you referring to my definition in what you said about femininity? I agree with you. I use femininity as a term for characteristics and behaviors that have traditionally and culturally bee..."

And couldn't you say that people have both Masculinity and Femininity traits and it is both of these that makes up a individual? and that neither of these are negative but just part of being Human?

[[deleted user]]

Katelyn wrote: "Adam, are you referring to my definition in what you said about femininity? I agree with you. I use femininity as a term for characteristics and behaviors that have traditionally and culturally bee..."

Yes. Femenine and masculine imply that you are biologically a female and I am a male. Apart from the obvious biological characteristics, there are hormonal differences too. And they may affect our behaviour, but for sure not as much as it may seem in our society. And those are the only differences. Everything else is a result of patriarchy.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Absolutely James. That's the point. Stereotypes about both genders have constructed the concepts of femininity and masculinity, reducing people to their gender identification. Men and women both can be criticized for being too masculine, too feminine, or not enough of either. But femininity has been the more devalued within this binary. Men and women both suffer as a result of this in a variety of ways.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Adam, yeah, I agree. Society tends to exaggerate how much hormones and whatnot affect our day-to-day behaviors. I'd only mention that masculine and feminine has to do with gender, not biological sex. We should make an effort not to conflate them.

[Erin]

Adam,

Since I'm not sure which part of her definition is an issue for you, I'm going to go point by point and hope I touch on it.

"Patriarchy is a culturally constructed system based on the devaluing of femininity."

Ok, this seems pretty straightforward. It's a social construction that privileges certain traits over others and assigns those traits as either feminine or masculine based on how that construction values the traits in question.

"Femininity is a term that may be applied to anyone, regardless of gender."

This is where we see masculinity attempt to police itself. Patriarchy has set the parameters for what it considers masculine or feminine. It then positions the individual people within the construction so that they will enforce these parameters, either intentionally or unintentionally. (Femininity also polices itself.) When someone who is assigned male deviates from the established parameters, other people who have also been assigned male attempt to correct the behavior so that it conforms. Calling men "babies," or "pussies" for showing emotion is one form of this. Emotion has been assigned to femininity, so only those people who have been assigned female should be accessing that trait. If this masculinity policing has been successful, the male in question will no longer exhibit this trait. In extreme forms, it results in violence against the offending male (for example, when a man is gay and he is beaten to death, or near to it) by the policing males.

"Therefore, feminism fights patriarchy with the goals of dismantling the system that causes gender discrimination."

Since we agree that this type of discrimination is toxic to the well-being of humanity, there needs to be an oppositional force that seeks to undermine the authority of the dominant system (patriarchy) so that a new balance can be established. Feminism attempts to do this work. We can debate about the successfulness of it, but that's what it aims to do.

"Though we mainly discuss women's rights because women are disproportionately affected by gender discrimination, the eradication of harmful stereotypes, gender roles, and biases helps women and men, masculine and feminine, gender queer, etc."

By this point, this final statement should be self-evident. When we end the harmful stereotypes, we can establish a new equilibrium that actually benefits us all.

I hope this was helpful.

[James]

I disagree with you not the values of femininity. can I repost you a easier post of mine?
If feminist would simply drop these negative ideologies that are not tested and have no scientific study bases people really would be more open to it .

Also I would like to present the idea of Gynocentricism, the scientifically proven fact that almost every man, woman and child has been raised and instilled with a woman's point of view. so I think women roles in past society served a very important part.
Society very of women was more important then mens. Most me believe it or not hold women up above themselves why do you think, ideas of providing and protecting women come form. Women and children first, protect and provide for the women...Women are the valued ones in a society men are the disposable ones.

[[deleted user]]

James wrote: "I have a question for anyone reading following along. really
Do you see any truth or understanding in what i'm saying? Or do people just see me as a ass with no point?"

When you analize an issue, you have to get out, look at it from the heights, see everything. Then you find out all the general concepts that come out of it, and start diving into it.

Instead, you directly dive from the beggining, from a point that you are interested in, and try to generalize later. And that's why you're wrong

[[deleted user]]

James wrote: "I have a question for anyone reading following along. really
Do you see any truth or understanding in what i'm saying? Or do people just see me as a ass with no point?"

I don't agree with your views (I feel you may have gathered that already). But I accept you have a point. I, and I'm sure many others, believe that talking to people with different opinions and beliefs helps to develop understanding of the issue, and sometimes to see things through a different lens.

It boils down to; do you think your point is valid? Are you gaining anything from this debate? I know you seem to be in the minority with your views, which can be intimidating, but as far as I've read, you seem to be polite, so definitely not an ass.

[[deleted user]]

James wrote: "I disagree with you not the values of femininity. can I repost you a easier post of mine?
If feminist would simply drop these negative ideologies that are not tested and have no scientific study ba..."

You repeated this like 5 times, so I'm gonna answer you. We individuals try to have the biggest influence inside society that we are able to. It's a biological trait. No matter the gender. So every woman should try to be individually as remarkable as possible. It's a pretty bad idea to stay home, do nothing but home stuff, be neglected and mistreated in order to achieve that. So, no, women do not have a bigger influence than men and never had. That doesn't mean that they don't have any influence at all, because they raise or used to raise every human being. It means that the theory you defend exaggerates it (a lot).

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

James, the idea that gynecentrism both explains that everyone has the point of view of a woman AND that women are revered and protected... Those ideas are contradictory. Putting women on a pedestal is not seeing things from their perspective, it is making assumptions about them. Even supposedly positive stereotypes are problematic in the grander scheme of gender binaries and discrimination.

Furthermore, the assumption that men have the ability to see things from women's point of view is actually a problem because it has the potential to contribute to practice of men in power making decisions on women's behalf. If we believe men understand women from a woman's perspective, that potentially makes it okay for them to make all kinds of decisions about things like reproductive health.

And by protecting women in the way you describe, it reinforces this decision-making practice by men in power thinking they can make choices for women with the excuse that they are protecting them. Which relates back to the issue of women being prevented from participating in the front lines in the military, as Erin discussed above.

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Nah, James. I don't think you're an ass! (Also, while we're at it, I must say that I have always found that insult hilarious!) This comes from somebody who has flagged your comments before, to be honest, and now I wouldn't because, well, I do not agree with your views but at least you try and elaborate, and state over and over again that you do not want to offend anybody. Well, and mostly because you still state that you believe in gender equality, so...ah well, to each their own speech, I guess. It's just that, since you ended up here, we'd like you to engage a bit more and to actually open your mind a bit more to our point. That's it. :)

[James]

Rhiannon wrote: "James wrote: "I have a question for anyone reading following along. really
Do you see any truth or understanding in what i'm saying? Or do people just see me as a ass with no point?"

I don't agre..."

Katelyn wrote: "Absolutely James. That's the point. Stereotypes about both genders have constructed the concepts of femininity and masculinity, reducing people to their gender identification. Men and women both ca..."

Thank you, most people on this site have said I'm too aggressive and hostile. No I do not feel intimidated or scared, just frustrated that people view gender relations is this way, it is so illogical to me. Unfortunately I have gained very little from these talks, I was hoping their was more but it's nothing that wasn't already presented form what I individually have seen feminist theory as.

[[deleted user]]

Erin wrote: "Adam,

Since I'm not sure which part of her definition is an issue for you, I'm going to go point by point and hope I touch on it.

"Patriarchy is a culturally constructed system based on the deval..."

I meant the first part. It depends on how you define feminity, but if you use its pure definition, then patriarchy is not that.

[Erin]

"I meant the first part. It depends on how you define feminity, but if you use its pure definition, then patriarchy is not that."

I'm not following you. Do you mean that patriarchy is not femininity? Or do you mean that patriarchy doesn't define femininity? If you could explain what you mean, I would appreciate it.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Adam, I explained above what I mean by femininity. This thread is busy so I understand you may have missed it. And sorry if you did read it, I didn't mean to assume. Anyway, short response is that I was using femininity in the sense of its cultural construction. I'll try to make that clearer when defining patriarchy in the future!

[[deleted user]]

I've seen it, I was just explaining her the thing.

[[deleted user]]

Erin wrote: ""I meant the first part. It depends on how you define feminity, but if you use its pure definition, then patriarchy is not that."

I'm not following you. Do you mean that patriarchy is not feminini..."

I mean that patriarchy is not "feminity hating" because that assumes that emotions are a naturally femenine thing, just to give an example. But she didn't use that definition of feminity, so we agree.

[[deleted user]]

Femininity* I've never used this word in English sorry.

[James]

Erin wrote: ""I meant the first part. It depends on how you define feminity, but if you use its pure definition, then patriarchy is not that."

I'm not following you. Do you mean that patriarchy is not feminini..."
Femininity and masculinity are phycological terms representing the different sides of a Individuals subconscious mind and phycological self. Both men and women have both Femininity and masculinity as part of their mindsets. This has nothing to do with Feminist patriarchy. The word Patriarchy is being misused by Feminist too, see that is another problem. Feminist take words and change their means to best suit there Ideology. Oh and by the way this Ideology has no kind of social or scientific testing behind it. It is simply a Idea feminist have put forth.

[[deleted user]]

If men have femininity then that's not femenine, it's just a human being's trait. Same applies for masculinity.

The fact that some feminists misuse the word Patriarchy doesn't mean we all do.

I've googled "patriarchy scientific research". First website: http://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/85spp.html

So you should make some research before assuring something.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

James, masculinity and femininity are cultural constructs derived from reductive stereotypes of both genders. It has nothing to do with both side of an individual. Saying that we have two sides in that sense reinforces the gender binary. Individual men and women both have a plethora of characteristics, both considered "masculine" or "feminine." Not to mention, different cultures assign different characteristics to genders, further disrupting the assumption that these characteristics are natural. They are all constructed.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Also, even if there were no studies done about patriarchy, that doesn't necessarily disprove the concept. Research is also affected by patriarchy and other cultural systems of discrimination. These systems determine which issues get the most funding, the best researchers, the most time, the greatest dispersion, etc. These systems can even affect the outcomes!

[[deleted user]]

Yes, but as he seems not to want information but to convince, I don't try to explain him, just contradict what he says. It's pretty boring but..

[James]

Katelyn wrote: "James, masculinity and femininity are cultural constructs derived from reductive stereotypes of both genders. It has nothing to do with both side of an individual. Saying that we have two sides in ..."
Katelyn, and I'm do mean this with all respect because I do really like you as a person you.
That is just not the whole case. Gender who we are, is not just a social construct. Gender who we are is made up biologically. Our development as a specials, how men and women evolved. how we act and behave is built around our biology. This has been proven time and time again by evolution, sociology studies, Phycological studies. Ever animal on the planet follows this same pattern. Who we are as individuals is social constructs but it goes a lot deeper then that. See isn't it kind of amazing in away we as people are so much more completed then we can even understand.

[James]

Katelyn wrote: "Also, even if there were no studies done about patriarchy, that doesn't necessarily disprove the concept. Research is also affected by patriarchy and other cultural systems of discrimination. These..."

This is seriously like trying to teach Evolution to a Creationist.
it's so crazy.

[Ash]

Whoever said no to men joining the feminist movement is part of the problem. Human equality is what it should be about

[[deleted user]]

James wrote: "Katelyn wrote: "Also, even if there were no studies done about patriarchy, that doesn't necessarily disprove the concept. Research is also affected by patriarchy and other cultural systems of discr..."

What is impressive is how convinced you are that you're right even though you're not even close to it.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

James, that last statement was out of line. Referring to someone's contribution as crazy is disrespectful and rude.

Everything I said in that post is absolutely true, and if you don't think so, you're being too idealistic.

You don't have to explain anything to me. Gender is one of the main topics that I study and that I wrote about for my master's thesis. It is socially constructed. Sex and the system of organs and body parts that determine it, are obviously biological, and that is what society has often structured gender roles around. But sex and gender are two separate things. And feminism seeks to liberate all genders from their biological sex.

[James]

Katelyn wrote: "James, that last statement was out of line. Referring to someone's contribution as crazy is disrespectful and rude.

Everything I said in that post is absolutely true, and if you don't think so, yo..."

Nonono, I'm mean I was crazy to talk about these thing, Feminist have their view and others have their own. You'r not crazy

[James]

Listen Men and Women are different, and that is ok. No one is better or worse, we should resect the difference between us it really is a beautiful dynamic. I mean we resect the differences between, race, culture, creed, religion, life style, individuality...why would sex and gender be any different.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

How does gender determine difference?

Individuals are different, yes. Any differences that seem to divide along the lines of gender have developed that way culturally. The sex organs you are born with do not have any affect on the development of an individual's character. We may inherit certain traits via DNA but they are not divided along gender lines.

[xenu01]

Honestly, the fact that any old conversation about feminism always devolves into a bunch of smart, patient feminists explaining to "just a guy" who doesn't really want to be educated but just have a rousing argument on the internet really does make me long for a feminist separatist internet. Minus icky transphobia.