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Archive > Should men be part of feminist movement? No!

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message 101: by [deleted user] (new)

Thank you Rebecca. Feminism is for everyone. I believe that once equality is set (and it will happen we just don't know when)it will benefit both men and women. Why this issues has taken so long to arise is beyond me. The issue has always been there. Loads of stereotypical things are there for both men and women. If men DONT become a part of the movement them every thing Emma you and I stand for will accomplish nothing. If men do not take part I believe we will come to a standstill. I believe that men play a just as big of a part as women do in equal rights


message 102: by Andrea (new)

Andrea Cordoba | 4 comments I didn't get to read all the comments, but I think men should definitely be part of the feminist movement because patriarchy affects them too. They are expected to behave or be a certain way, a way which many of them might not want to behave. They might not even a want to fit in the social norms that society wants them to.
Feminism, in part, wants to take down those roles we all are expected to fulfill (as men or women), and this might be what many men want or need. They cannot be excluded from this fight.
And if they don't want to join, well.... I'll fight for them anyway.
*sorry for my English, it's not my native language


message 103: by James (new)

James Andrea wrote: "I didn't get to read all the comments, but I think men should definitely be part of the feminist movement because patriarchy affects them too. They are expected to behave or be a certain way, a way..."

Can feminist please drop the "patriarchy" ideology. All it dose is blame men for our society problems and create animosity between men and women. I think it is enough with these shaming tactics which is how most men see it.


message 104: by Sascha (new)

Sascha | 391 comments OMG, James, what is your problem? Would you please stop speaking in my name and in my male friends' name ("most of men see it that way")? As a guy, I don't feel that the feminist critique of patriarchy gives me the blame as a man and no, I don't feel "animosity" towards women either.

I think it is necessary to reflect and be critiqually about patriarchy and also about one's own involvement into patriarchy. Basically I think the point is to notice that we live in a society where women are hurt by injustice, oppression and violence. I think to criticize this is the least thing to do. If you call this "ideology" then be it. I have no problem with this kind of "ideology".


message 105: by Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (last edited Jan 10, 2016 11:22PM) (new)

Katelyn (katelynrh) | 836 comments Mod
Patriarchy does not refer to specific men. It is a concept of a cultural construct that succinctly refers to the oppressive results of a society that has traditionally devalued femininity. It has also resulted in the labeling of certain characteristics and actions as gendered. Patriarchy also negatively affects men. Referencing patriarchy does not blame men, rather explains that combatting individual sexism is not enough. We must examine the larger systems in place that have perpetuated gender discrimination.

It's similar to the concept of white supremacy. Many white people feel defensive when that term is brought up, but it refers to a larger system rather than individuals.

I think most men who feel shamed by the use of the term patriarchy probably do not understand what it is actually meant to refer to. Of course there are those who abuse the term, but what I wrote above is the general meaning behind it, from what I've learned in my experiences, conversations with others, and women's history and gender studies classes. I hope that's helpful!


message 106: by James (last edited Jan 10, 2016 11:46PM) (new)

James Sascha wrote: "OMG, James, what is your problem? Would you please stop speaking in my name and in my male friends' name ("most of men see it that way")? As a guy, I don't feel that the feminist critique of patria..."

We Sasha about 70%of the population do not identify with feminism but still believes in equality for both men and women. Only about 15 to %20 of the population identify with feminism all and a smaller number can even agree about the principles in feminisum.I might have miss fazed, let me correct that. "most people"...sorry but believe you me I wasn't counting you. Also Europe and Australia have relatively the same number...so most people could be right. I won't talk about you, I don't even know you so stop being so dramatic.


message 107: by James (new)

James Sascha wrote: "OMG, James, what is your problem? Would you please stop speaking in my name and in my male friends' name ("most of men see it that way")? As a guy, I don't feel that the feminist critique of patria..."

The thing is patriarchy is a belief and a theory at best held and made up by feminism, at least the way they present it. To force other to beleive in it and demonize a sex is not helpful. It create negative feelings and a overall negative reaction with people. You feminist are always asking why people hate feminism now? It is things like th
these feminist ideologies...I'm not trying to be mean or blame but it's kind of true. There are lots of different theories for the social construct that we live in. The patriarchy is just one of many. Different people are aloud to believe what they wish but you should never force your views on other. That is my point.


message 108: by Sascha (last edited Jan 11, 2016 12:30AM) (new)

Sascha | 391 comments Well, maybe I love to be a drama queen from time to time? ;)

James, as your statistics is concerned... are you a wizard or how can you know that 70% don't identify with feminism? I have never heard of any polls asking people "are you feminist or not?"

And even if it were true that 70% of the population - what population: world population, Europe's population, Costa Rica's population, Tehran's population,...? - then we have to ask for explanations. Why are there so many people who don't identify as feminist?

And I don't think you are right. I think there are more and more people who are getting aware of the problem of patriarchy and sexism. So though it's hard or probably impossible to find out how many people are pro or against feminism, I don't think we are so little in numbers.

And James, I don't think your fear is legitimate that feminists force their view on others. Maybe there are some but all in all it's a way and a tool to debate social problems. And feminism is no homogenous bloc but it's more of a rainbow and includes different issues and views.

And I would like to know from you, James: If you don't agree with the theory of patriarchy then how would you explain that women face injustice in society and are discriminated and oppressed?


message 109: by James (new)

James "We" know who is speaking in absolutes.


message 110: by James (last edited Jan 11, 2016 12:20AM) (new)

James Kodak wrote: "James - there is opinionated and wanting to debate peacefully, then there is trying to force your beliefs onto others.

I understand you don't like feminism.

My question is: do you want to read bo..."

am I doing any of the things you are accusing me of? I have not forced my opinions on anyone simply spoken them out. When people replie to me I answer the openly and honestly. I am sorry if you don't like what I am saying but isn't that what discussions are about? Different ideas coming together all moving to a common goal. If you wish to report me then go ahead but it's because you wish me to stop and want me gone, not because I am doing anything wrong.


message 111: by Ash (last edited Jan 11, 2016 12:26AM) (new)

Ash | 155 comments James wrote: "demonize a sex"
Oh, come on, pal, are you serious? You've met some wrong feminists, I suppose. Like those wrong bees whom Winnie the Pooh met once. Using your terms, feminism is about demonizing not a sex, but some behavioral patterns and habits of it, that actually exist. I don't see any problem here.
By the way I already reported you for cross posting all over the board, so the barrel of a moderator's gun is pointing on you, remember that.


message 112: by Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Katelyn (katelynrh) | 836 comments Mod
James, you don't have to agree with us and no one is forcing their beliefs down your throat here. You are describing patriarchy and the intentions of feminist who invoke it. We are explaining to you, based on our experiences and accumulated knowledge, what patriarchy actually is and represents. Instead of considering our thoughts, you throw out statistics without citing them, assuming you know how a large and diverse group of people feel about it. For example, I spent time writing a thoughtful explanation of patriarchy above, but you haven't responded at all to the points I made. Instead, you are repeating your own points without engaging with those of the others on this thread. I don't mean to call you out, but it's quite frustrating because the whole point of this group is to participate in a dialogue, which requires listening to others, and it doesn't feel like you are giving anyone else's thoughts a fair shot.


message 113: by Viet (new)

Viet | 3 comments The feminist movement is not secluded to only females. Every human being who believes in the nature of human equality can be a part of this movement. I myself am a male, and I believe that women should have the same rights as men, vice versa.

As someone who is a professional makeup artist, it gives me no greater joy than bringing up the confidence of a female (even males at times) and empowering her to be a stronger version of herself. I commend those who are open to this movement having supporters from the likes of myself, a male, and any other race, sexuality, class, etc. If we prohibit men from the movement, how can feminism gain support from the entire population? It's like stabbing yourself with your own sword.


message 114: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
To be honest I'm tired of this James troll, I have seen him around and he has yet to make a single positive remark. Hey, if you're so clearly disgusted by, and possibly scared of feminism, I suggest you go to a manly men forum where you'll likely find real men and submissive women ready to embrace your views, when and how you tell them to do. Seriously. I'm flagging you, too. I mean we're gonna have more like you but it's worth a try to keep this site nice and clean.


message 115: by Ash (new)

Ash | 155 comments Kodak wrote: "Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME"
My sincere apologies for obvious offtopic, but as a non-native english speaker I must admit the brilliance of this expression


message 116: by James (new)

James Kodak wrote: "There's responding respectfully, then there's calling people an 'ass' when they don't agree with you. I have screen shots of you wish for me to prove it?

I have seen plenty of responses to your po..."


Radical feminist of today....go to youtube look up Bearing and see the latest video that he posted about a prominent feminist writer in the UK. You can see that these views of man hating are alive and well. It's a short video. I believe in equality for everyone, and I have a right to question harmful ideologies that are present in our culture.


message 117: by James (new)

James Ana wrote: "To be honest I'm tired of this James troll, I have seen him around and he has yet to make a single positive remark. Hey, if you're so clearly disgusted by, and possibly scared of feminism, I sugges..."

That's not true I have made many positive remarks


message 118: by James (new)

James That's not very positive by the way " manly men" that thinking is a judgement stereotype on others.


message 119: by James (new)

James Well when people disagree just throw them out . Whish that worked for real life.


message 120: by Ash (new)

Ash | 155 comments James wrote: "Well when people disagree just throw them out . Whish that worked for real life."
Disagree? You're simply annoying, that's the problem. What was the reason behind appearing in every topic you could reach? Interfere with any discussion you were able to get into? You have your point, alright, but you're definitely molesting people with it. For what?


message 121: by James (new)

James "Molesting" is a very serious word that shouldn't be used in lite conversation like that...just like the word rape. My be you should think about the words you are saying. I believe in equality for every human. That is why I feel the need to question feminism. I strongly disagree with the ideologies that the promote in the culture. Not the individuals that wish equality to exist, but negative feminism. I am truly sorry if that is offensive to you but ever individual has a right to question ideas that affect their lives. I simply wish to have answers.


message 122: by James (new)

James "Molesting" is a very serious word that shouldn't be used in lite conversation like that...just like the word rape. My be you should think about the words you are saying. I believe in equality for every human. That is why I feel the need to question feminism. I strongly disagree with the ideologies that the promote in the culture. Not the individuals that wish equality to exist, but negative feminism. I am truly sorry if that is offensive to you but ever individual has a right to question ideas that affect their lives. I simply wish to have answers.


message 123: by Ash (new)

Ash | 155 comments James wrote: "I simply wish to have answers."
1. You're not alone in your question. Imagine ten or twenty people behaving like you - this board would become dysfunctional.
2. In your very first comment spreaded all over the board you labeled feminists as "liars" and "cowards". And now you claiming me as being offensive? Hilarious. It doesn't even look like a question at all, it's just blaming. It's definitely not a good start for a discussion.

Anyways, the answer is already given: radical feminists are radical feminists. They have very little in common with real feminism, except their naming. I repeate: feminism, using your terms, is about demonizing not a sex, but some behavioral patterns and habits of it, that actually exist. I don't see any problem here.


message 124: by Ash (last edited Jan 11, 2016 02:00AM) (new)

Ash | 155 comments Oh, I see. Molesting is more than just annoying, and often uses to label a sexual abuse. My apologies to everyone, I hadn't been aware of this fact.


message 125: by James (new)

James See I find a lot of aspects of feminism problematic and when things are problematic you need to confront them to bring about positive change.


message 126: by James (new)

James Yes Molesting is sex u all abuse of children...the word should not be thrown around.


message 127: by Astrid (new)

Astrid | 215 comments This seems obvious to me - of course men should be part of feminism. Like someone else said, it would be like saying heterosexuals can't fight against homophobia.

The OP seemed to think that feminism is about beating the 'aggressor' at his own game, but that's not what we're trying to achieve. Feminism is about gender equality: something that benefits men as much as it will benefit women. Isn't that what HeForShe is all about?

As a feminist, I don't want to punish men for what their ancestors did and I don't want to oppress men to get even. I want an equal society without the stigmas and gender expectations we see today, and I see no reason why men can't be a part of achieving that.


message 128: by Sascha (new)

Sascha | 391 comments Ash, I don't even agree that radical feminism is a problem. The word "radical" (from "radix", the latin word for "root") means searching for the cause of a problem and deal with a problem from its roots.

So in my view a radical feminist is someone who is striving to end patriarchy by adressing its roots in society. In contrast to just reforming the laws for example. A radical feminist would probably say that reforming the law is not enough.

The question here is: what do you think are the socioeconomic and political roots of patriarchy?

I would say patriarchy is connected to other forms of domination, discrimination and oppression, like racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism,... Many women are discriminated in more than one form, for example black women, lesbian women, working class women,... And I see one root of patriarchy in our economic system, that is to say: in capitalism.

So my opinon is that radical feminism is not the problem but the problem is an attitude which claims that feminism "forces its ideology on others", and James seems to share this attitude.


message 129: by Ash (last edited Jan 11, 2016 04:50AM) (new)

Ash | 155 comments Sascha wrote: "Ash, I don't even agree that radical feminism is a problem. The word "radical" (from "radix", the latin word for "root") means searching for the cause of a problem and deal with a problem from its ..."
Sasha, I still didn't answered on your previous comment, and you've made another brilliant one. Alright, I was constantly stopping myself from sharing my views on the source of the problem, but this topic was popping up a few times in this board, so maybe it is time.

This is my and only my opinion, I don't want to try to convince someone. But I see it as bright as the laptop I'm typing this message on.

The stand is: roots aren't even ecomonical, but psychological.

Humiliation and disrespect - these two are backbones of our social hierarchy, not by chance. Whether a victim is a woman, or a man conversely, or a child, or a person with a different skin color, or a person with some type of sexuality - the source is only one: society needs someone to mistreat. And many people need someone to mistreat. Just to feel more comfortable. This is an integral part of our nature, which novadays is being exploited by economics.
Sexism, racism, homophobia and others are just symptoms to me. Symptoms of one massive disease. I wouldn't label it as a "patriarchy", because we can imagine a lot of new social constructs that will involve humiliation and disrespect in their mechanics. Patriarchy is a straw man, the real problem lays inside of us and the way we treat other living creatures, not even necessarily a humans. Men are privileged by society, yes, to mistreat someone. But eventually anyone can be an oppressor and anyone can be a victim. The oppressor and the victim are inside every person, with no distinction for any gender, skin color, age, sexuality or something else.
The cure? Respect another one. That's basically it, but it's as hard as simply it sounds. Respect should become a new religion, if I can put it that way. It's a matter of culture.


message 130: by Sascha (last edited Jan 11, 2016 04:37AM) (new)

Sascha | 391 comments Ash, thanks for the flowers and I also must thank you for this informative posting!

And I would agree with you for the most part. Yes, it's true that all forms of discrimination function like sexism/patriarchy. It is true that at the core of the problem is mistreat, disrespect and humiliation.

But I have to strongly disagree when you are saying that this is an integral part of our nature. I am not an expert in psychology as I am more dealing with issues of politics and society. But I don't think that mistreat is part of our nature. I think it is something we learn when we are socialized.

We learn in our capitalist society to see the others as potential rivals and even worse: as enemies. And we learn to strife for our own gain. We do NOT learn to see others as friends. And we do NOT learn to cooperate with others so that everybody benefits and becomes happy.

I think that is one central cause why people - and you are right: not only people but also animals and the ecosystem of our planet - are treated badly. We learn from capitalism that it's okay to mistreat others as long as it is for our own gains.

And you are also right when you say the cure is to respect (and even better: love!) one another.

But this also needs appropriate social structures. It needs an appropriate education. Appropriate discourses in the media, in politics, everywhere. We need to UNLEARN seeing people as rivals or even worse: as enemies and mistreating others and we need to LEARN seeing people as friends and communicating and cooperating with each other.

I think it is possible: We can make a change!


message 131: by James (last edited Jan 11, 2016 04:48AM) (new)

James Ok I think maybe a should clear the air here and try and make amends to some hurt feelings that I may have caused. I do sincerely feel bad and regret it If that is the case. I do not like nor make it my intent to make individuals feel bad or to mock or ridicule people and their beliefs/
Sascha, Ash, Kodak and anyone else that has been following along I do apologize if i have offended you personally.

If anyone would like to see my reasoning for being on this site and speaking the way I do there is a short video link about a radical Feminist writer in the UK, who is a prominent member of the Feminist Movement. It is a short watch, No one has to watch it, but it would be very much appreciated.

https://youtu.be/LZJ5ioPPxgE

It is reasons like this that makes me feel that sparking debates is very important. this kind of sexist Misandry that is all to common with in Feminism dose not represent equality and does no good for anyone in society. Most people on this site are very positive people but by identifying as feminist your are giving more of a platform to people like Julie Bindle and others like her. These feminist are sad to say the think-tanks for the Feminist movement. That is why I believe that Egalitarianism, or Humanism is a better trend of thought that favors equality for all people.
Despite what you call yourselves everyone should feel the need to call out people like this. She and others like her is the main reason for why people are rejecting Feminism. Why people view it as a group that hates men.


message 132: by James (new)

James Ash wrote: "Sascha wrote: "Ash, I don't even agree that radical feminism is a problem. The word "radical" (from "radix", the latin word for "root") means searching for the cause of a problem and deal with a pr..."

I really like what you are saying here by the way.


message 133: by James (last edited Jan 11, 2016 04:58AM) (new)

James Katharine wrote: "From my standpoint (and that is intersectional) feminism is so much more than wages gap. It is a movement for human rights. It talks about gender equality ofc, but also about racism, LGBTQ, ability..."

Some men would say that they don't have a platform at all now-a -days which is why most of the leading speakers in the MRA are women, not that i'm a MRA. Because if a man spoke openly he would be shot down as a sexist, and women are always more receptive to other women.
Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side. Women feel like men are more privileged and men feel that women are more privileged. We put to much stock in classifying people for what the are rather then who they are.


message 134: by James (new)

James Ash wrote: "James wrote: "I simply wish to have answers."
1. You're not alone in your question. Imagine ten or twenty people behaving like you - this board would become dysfunctional.
2. In your very first com..."


In terms of My first comment that I posted on here I stand by it by not talking about key issues of rape culture more openly The main advocates of feminism were cowards as well as the news and media.
but that got you to read my post didn't it? and know you are more informed if you didn't already know about The 2015 New Years Eve Attacks in #Cologne (#Köln).


message 135: by [deleted user] (new)

Katharine wrote: "From my standpoint (and that is intersectional) feminism is so much more than wages gap. It is a movement for human rights. It talks about gender equality ofc, but also about racism, LGBTQ, ability..."

Couldn't agree more with you Katharine!
We need an intersectional feminism. Some men are depressed because their role in society is not the same. They are not the only ones supporting the family and paying the household bills, like it used to be. So they're thinking "What do I do now?". We need to show them that we're not trying to take them out or anything like that. There's a term called kyriarchy that was coined by Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza in her 2001 book, Wisdom Ways: Introducing Feminist Biblical Interpretation, it says that the kyriarchy is the social system that keeps all intersecting oppressions in place.
In the glossary of Wisdom Ways, Schussler Fiorenza points out that “the theoretical adequacy of patriarchy has been challenged because, for instance, black men do not have control over white wo/men.”
We are all playing the game "oppressed and oppressor at the same time". Black men are oppressed by white women, white women are oppressed by white men, if you're a person of colour you're oppressed by white people, if you're gay you're oppressed by straight people and so on. We need men in feminism, hell, we need everyone.
We need different perspectives, of black people, homosexuals, disabled, transgender, fat, thin, rich and poor. This is a fight no one can win alone.


message 136: by James (new)

James Ash wrote: "James wrote: "I simply wish to have answers."
1. You're not alone in your question. Imagine ten or twenty people behaving like you - this board would become dysfunctional.
2. In your very first com..."


friedrich nietzsche, Philosophize with a hammer, shattering the bad and leaving only the good to rebuild from.


message 137: by Ash (last edited Jan 11, 2016 05:36AM) (new)

Ash | 155 comments James wrote: "It is a short watch, No one has to watch it, but it would be very much appreciated. "

Is this it? Because I didn't watched the video, but read the whole interview instead.
I would actually put them all in some kind of camp where they can all drive around in quad bikes, or bicycles, or white vans. I would give them a choice of vehicles to drive around with, give them no porn, they wouldn’t be able to fight – we would have wardens, of course! Women who want to see their sons or male loved ones would be able to go and visit, or take them out like a library book, and then bring them back.
This piece sounds massive. Alright. Whether it is a joke or not (someone claimed that it is), these words are dangerous by themselves.
Well, she is a prominent radical feminist. She is expected to say something like that. Does it mean that we should shut down the radical feminists initiative? I don't think so. Besides, this piece is going in according to rest of this interview in which she says that she witnessed many, many horrible things that men did to women, so she has to have her point. I'm not supporting her words, but at the same time I can understand why she said them.


message 138: by James (last edited Jan 11, 2016 06:02AM) (new)

James Sascha wrote: "Well, maybe I love to be a drama queen from time to time? ;)

James, as your statistics is concerned... are you a wizard or how can you know that 70% don't identify with feminism? I have never hear..."

To this Sascha I would say that there are many ideas and theories of how different cultures developed and why men and women took the roles they did in society. For me personal I find the information about evolutionary sociology to be very informative.
I think to look at Things in terms of oppression in terms of men and women is a over simplification of the issue in the past. Yes it is true that women were servant to their husband in a lot of cases but I believe that it goes a lot deeper then that. Patriarchy theory, the way feminist present it, dose not really do past human social roles and development justice. Remember that Feminism started form upper-class wealthy well to do women wanting similar rights to their husbands. The poor class that was being oppressed by the rich, both shared work labored. Husbands and wives worked more of a partnership in order just to Live, raise a family. Most people did not have the right to vote, it was more about wealth and class then men having power over women. Then only the head of the family could vote and only if they owned property. Most men and women could own businesses...such as bar or taverns bakeries but they were ruled by that society,rich land owners and the state.
So the Idea of the Patriarchy again doesn't fully represent history...I could go own but I am by no means a export in these matters. If you would like to hear some great lectures on the matter I suggest listening to Karen Straughan lectures on her youtube page....Yes she dose speak for mens rights groups but she is very fair on the subject of gender debates and offered a lot of interesting lectures. Also by no means am i suggesting that women and men should stay tired to gender role of that past, I'm merely saying that our understand of the past is different then what we preserve it to be now.


message 139: by [deleted user] (new)

So the fact that 99,99% of the remarkable human beings (leaders, scientists, artists, philosophers...) in history are men is due to the fact that women are mentally retarded, according to you?


message 140: by Holly (new)

Holly Smith (book_lover_4life) women and men both need feminism.. this shouldn't even be a discussion. The literal definition of feminism is the social, political and economic equality of BOTH sexes. Women have been more oppressed than men in history and today, but there are still many issues that concern men. I don't think it is fair to exclude men from this movement...


message 141: by James (last edited Jan 11, 2016 06:34AM) (new)

James No not at all, and I did not say that. Of corse men had rain over women especially in the upper classes.
Lets look at it this way, women were seen as objects, but objects of value. Men were also seen as object, but more as disposable objects.
The disposable objects in the past were meant to be willing sacrifice themselves and dedicate themselves for the betterment of the society. The disposable objects had to provide something in order to be worthy of living. Women were objects of value because they could have children and because of this they were look at as the providers of the population of the society. So They were keep secure and safe and took up the role of domestic life in order to provide for the children. Women were more cared for in this way and held up above men in this way. Men were expected to sacrifice themselves not just for the society but for the women of the society. Men going off to war, men as the protectors, women and children first. Mens agency was to put other before himself and women agency was to provide for the children. As history progressed the roles of the genders evolved to fit the necessity of life and survival.
Also I would like to present the idea of Gynocentricism, the scientifically proven fact that almost every man, woman and child has been raised and instilled with a woman's point of view. so I think women roles in past society served a very important part.

I'm not saying women didn't get the short end of the stick what i'm suggesting is that the roles of men and women occurs in a much more natural way then a Patriarchy culture presented by Feminist thought. Which by the way Feminist are using the word Patriarchy wrong. Historical gender roles were no ones fault it was men and women taking on roles that best insured survival and property.


message 142: by [deleted user] (new)

I didn't mean to say that men can't support ideologically women for equality. What I mean is that I wouldn't actively and publicly fight for women's rights more than for men, just the same. Doing that wouldn't bring equality, just wouldn't strengthen patriarchy. And I defend this not because I don't care about gender equality, on the contrary. I think that if you want something you gotta fight for it, not expect someone else to do it for you. If I manage to achieve gender equality I'll be the leader, so power will be in my hands, and I'm a man, so I'm not truly solving the problem, I'm just manipulating statistics. Power or social influence is a fundamental aspect of our society, and you can't run away from reality just because that makes things way more difficult.


message 143: by [deleted user] (new)

You can't observe past from a static view and say that they did the best in order to survive. That may have been true centuries ago, not now. So it's a fallacy. And you forget that we blame people from the past for being stupid, so we can't just say they did their best so why judge them? We must actively critisize what they've done because even though they didn't find better solutions at that time, there were better choices indeed. Same applies for present.


message 144: by James (new)

James Patriarchy referrers to wealthy ruling classes and were more associated with a Monarchy rule, like kings, dukes and rich landowners. These rich land owners were the ones that ruled over the majority of the population. Feminist have so kindly taken the word and superemposed in on all male female relationships of the past. Wealth and State were always the real oppressors in history...I think everyone should stop blaming men and go beat up Prince George and Prince Harry instead.


message 145: by James (new)

James Erin wrote: ""Katelyn wrote: The same thing goes for women :) "

Sometimes women who have internalized patriarchy are even worse misogynists than men. It's up to each individual to honestly examine the things t..."


Great point


message 146: by Concetta (new)

Concetta | 13 comments Jonelle wrote: "Holly wrote: "women and men both need feminism.. this shouldn't even be a discussion. The literal definition of feminism is the social, political and economic equality of BOTH sexes. Women have bee..."

totally agree !!!


message 147: by James (last edited Jan 11, 2016 07:12AM) (new)

James Men Of the past acted as they saw accordingly, doing what they felt they had to do and they were oppressed as well. Mens roles in the past were no better in some respects to women's roles. I mean would you rather be stuck at home minding the children or go get your head blown off fighting a war. Like I said it's not about blame, and it's not about keeping roles the same, it is about moving forward. Blaming others for the past creates animosity and that keeps positive changes form occurring. That is why i think that the feminist camp needs to give the man blaming a rest It is doing more to hurt gender relationships then help. Also Young boys should not grow up feeling ashamed of being men. I for one get anger as hell whenever i here these assumed theories. You should not feel guilty of being a man or masculinity, it represents protecting, providing, loyalty and putting others above yourself. All these are great qualities for manhood. If men Received a little respect form the Feminist camp maybe more would feel like supporting it.


message 148: by [deleted user] (new)

All social issues have their origin in the powerful classes because they are the ones with a bigger influence. So saying that is like saying nothing. And by the way you mentioned Nietzsche. He publicly insulted women but admired them privately. Why? Because he didn't believe in mercy and compassion. That's for moribunds. He believed in will of power. So if you don't believe in yourself, if you don't respect yourself, why the hell would I do it? If you can't fight life, then shut up and suffer.


message 149: by [deleted user] (new)

Yes, sure, there are lots of definitions of feminism depending on who uses it. But you shouldn't try to make them understand why that concept is wrong because they don't care about truth, but in their own interest. So yes, it's not about blaming men, it's about living in a men dominating society.


message 150: by Sascha (last edited Jan 11, 2016 07:20AM) (new)

Sascha | 391 comments I would like to share some thoughts about men’s role in feminism. These thoughts are from the book “Weil ein #Aufschrei nicht reicht. Für einen Feminismus von heute” (Because one #Outcry is not enough. For a Feminism of these days) by Anne Wizorek (p.292-302). I have summarized and translated some ideas. Any comments?


Participating for men – what it means to be a good ally

For people who wanna become allies of feminism, Anne Wizorek gives some suggestions:

* Acknowledge that sexism is a problem which systematically disadvantages other people.
In general we are teached that everybody has the same chances and that you are to blame for your bad experiences. But you have to see the system behind the problem. This is the condition that the people affected can articulate their voice and change can be implemented. To solve a problem you must name it.

* Listen and listen carefully.
When women are talking it still isn’t valued by society in the same manner like it is valued when men are talking. That’s why such a simple thing like listening becomes quite revolutionary. The internet offers great opportunities in this regard. Why not deliberately following black people on Twitter when you are white? It could offer you new perspectives without stereotypes and in the best case empathy. But be aware: Feminists are not here to explain you the world! Try educating yourself!

* Cope with your own responsibility/guilt.
Men have to understand that they profit from living in a sexist society. Men are not bad people. But we have created a culture around them where the needs of women are less considered, play no role at all and that sometimes really hates women. Maybe it’s true that you as an individual man treat women well. But sexism brings you advantages, too. Every time when somebody is listening more to you than to a woman. Every time when you are thought to be more capable “as a man”. Every time when you are rewarded for that. Consciously or not – you have already used those privileges. Of course that’s no comfortable feeling. And please don’t get angry at the people who tell you this truth. But let’s change this!

* Change your behaviour.
You are not judged because you are a man but that doesn’t mean you should not change your behaviour. Honestly, this is super-hard because you will have to challenge lots of your views which you have learned all your life and even throw some of them overboard. But it’s not impossible. Speak out because as long as you remain silent you still use your privileges and moreover you ensure that the unjust system goes on. But if you wanna change society and are against discrimination then you will have to break your silence and stand up.

* You will make mistakes and you will learn your lesson from it.
If you screw things up and notice (by yourself or because someone else has given you a hint) that you have done something wrong then take some time and accept it. Shit happens. Don’t go into your defence. And don’t take the other’s reactions personal but apologize instead. Really mean what you say when apologizing. Learn your lesson from your mistakes.

* Look for equal-minded people.
For support, exchange and collective action.

* Use your privileges to change the status-quo.
You can use your privileges to help less privileged people. When you are invited to speak at an audience then make your speech dependent on a balanced gender relation or generally on diversity on the podium. It also means to intervene with civil courage when you are witnessing harassment.

* Take action.
Wherever you are, it’s now up to you to contribute and take a stand against discrimination and support the affected and give them your privileges as a backup. Fighting against discrimination is possible and necessary to create a surrounding where such a behaviour is seen as inacceptable because it simply is wrong.

It’s not just a conscious decision but mainly a responsibility. We need more men who have the courage to engage together with us for a society and a world which is more just for all genders. We need you.


Thanks for your attention.


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