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Should men be part of feminist movement? No!
I'm sorry that I didn't notice the conflict here and didn't take a stand earlier. I'm not sure what to say now except: Adam, my impression is that you insist on your point of view as the exclusive truth. Please could you try and listen more to what Erin and other people here are saying? Maybe then a dialogue on an equal level is possible.And yeah Robert, I think you make a good point here. Actually, there are men out there who reflect and behave friendly and in solidarity with women. It doesn't matter if they call themselves feminist or not but these men are the nucleus of change.
But I think we lack of a voice. We have no voice on all levels, in society, in politics, in everyday's life. We may behave friendly and kindly towards women but there is no articulation of our voice. And I think such a voice is needed to change society.
We should speak out loud when women suffer violence, are harassed, insulted, discriminated, oppressed. Why not take part in the feminist movement and take political action? So that everyone notices, hey, there are women AND men who fight against patriarchy and sexism and who live consent culture to overcome the violent, inequal and oppressive culture of patriarchy. Let's take a stand, criticize patriarchy in the public and organize our resistance against patriarchy and sexism!
This also means that men must practise feminism in all aspects of life. It means to have the courage and intervene when you notice there is a woman who feels uncomfortable because a man treats her badly. It means to give our sisters the same right to speak their minds as we give our male fellows. And it means to respect the needs of women. It means to live consent culture and to negotiate what is the best to make everyone comfortable and happy in a given situation (this means also but by far not only sex). It means to respect the perception of women - when a woman tells you she has suffered sexualised violence then don't ask her if this is true and don't ask her what dress she had on that evening in the bar and don't ask her why she has gone out on the streets so late, you understand? It means to share 50:50 responsibility for our activities, in private as well as in public affairs: may it be in the household, may it be cooking, may it be in bringing up children or may it be in leading a company or may it be in politics or any other aspect of our society.
And no, this does not mean to demand "hey girls, if you wanna have equality then first join the army!". But it means to invite, encourage and support women to fully participate in society and to live their dreams - may that be having a family, may that be running for president, may that be flying to the moon with a spaceship or may that be any other thing a woman is dreaming of.
I think Erin me and Katelyn started on the wrong foot in this thread. Glad to know the thread is back to its original cause.
I find it challenging to promote inclusivity and equity from a word that excludes.
Deobrah um sorry but will you clarify what you want to say? I have a bad English so
I think it is very important for men to be a part of feminism. As they have been shaped by society to become part of "the problem," how can we solve things peacefully and equally without a combining of genders? Thats my personal belief. And also @Adam: I feel as if your comments on domestic abuse should really end. As someone who was mentally, verbally, and physically abused by her stepfather, I have found your comments very insulting, as I believe other victims have as well. A victim is never an idiot. My abuser got in my head from the age of six, and made me believe I deserved everything I got. And I believed him, because he was my father figure. And a scary pieve of shit as well. So does that make me an idiot? No. Could I have gone to the authorities? When I got older, yes. But what would have happened? I would have been taken away from my mother or younger brother, and then either of them could have faced his wrath. I stayed to protect my family. Does that make me an idiot? No, it makes me a fucking warrior.
Shaiyan wrote: "I don't know if this is out of topic, but I want to share the information that the region where I am currently, there are a few ancient aboriginal native communities. These communities have been ma..."Thank you for sharing!! I think it is very important to recognize these societies as well. Throughout history, there Have been many societies where women were the "desired" gender, or where genders were found equal. Perhaps we simply do not hear of them since men have taken over the writing of history?just a thought.
Denver mate! Chill! It's all good. People say things that's what they are for. For saying things. Ignore them. I agree with what you say. Those female aren't victim, they are survivors they are warriors. Take care Denver. Nice to meet you!
Just want to say one thing, shortly. I wanted to do this yesterday, but it's still difficult to me to write that amount of text on another language. Honestly, I'd never did it as much as here. I'm sorry for any delay in answering.Well, I was waiting for this topic to pop up, because a few weeks ago I faced similar, word for word, point of view in another social media, made by some another guy. "Feminism is for women only, there is no place for men in it". I fought this point for a few days, and was banned for a week, shame on me; I was just mad and boiling as hell on that guy which simply refused to listen anyone.
So, this week of ban gave me an opportunity to think about his point more thoroughly. And, as strange as it could be, eventually I made the same conclusion: feminism is really for women only, there is no place for men in it.
But I don't want to protect this point. Instead, I want to stress that this is a real problem. It exists. And maybe we should pay more attention to resolve it if we really want to make a difference.
Feminism has a lot to say to women, to encourage, to give a set of views and instruments to operate with. Books, articles, great inspiring people and supportive community out there.
But there is nothing in feminism to offer to men; no views, no instruments, no even actual support. The only thing we know from feminism is that we are oppressors. Feminism, this is my impression, doesn't even say that men shouldn't do some things; instead, it encourages women to fight with men who do. I'm not even talking about what we actually should do.
HeForShe campaign was the first thing trying to somehow involve men into a discussion and community. It gave me a lot of hope that situation will change somehow. But not many feminists accept even that.
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We either fight and think out of the box together, or we don't do it at all. Just my opinion.
I think feminism is a way too broad term with a lot of definitions. We need to promote the feminism we are talking about. Not the others. And this feminism can't exist if we leave out male
Ana wrote: "Sorry, but you are not allowed to hold your ideas on gender equality anymore, because you happen to be men"I've heard that many times actually.
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I've heard that many times actually."
Hi, feminist man! :D Sorry that you had to listen to such nonsense. I mean, I am no expert, but I would say real feminists are happy to have you using your brains for the cause. Seriously, some people...
Ash wrote: "Ana wrote: "Sorry, but you are not allowed to hold your ideas on gender equality anymore, because you happen to be men"I've heard that many times actually."
I'm sorry someone has told you this before. While i don't believe men have the right to determine a woman's oppression or worth, i think you have every right to share your ideas on equality
Adam I have one response to your comment. You told us: "You need to fight us to achieve true equality" um... NO SHIT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Thank you Mr. Mansplainer for telling us what we already know.
Wow, so a lot has happened since last night. First, thanks. I appreciate the support. Second, I'm glad this is getting back on track.Now, for why "defining" feminism is a problem and why we can't really do that in the end. There is no such thing as the universal human experience. There are things we all experience, sure: love, hate, sadness, grief. We don't experience them the same way, though. Black men will experience Situation A in a different way than white men will, or latino men, etc. But that doesn't mean that all Black men experience Situation A in the same way because black, gay men will experience it in a way that black, straight men won't. Christian black men will experience it differently than non-Christian black men, etc. And even within that, they still won't experience Situation A in identical ways because maybe one black, gay man grew up with an accepting family while another did not. Maybe another one is dealing with substance abuse issues or has mental health issues. This is all just a long way of saying that if human experience, in general, is not universal, and the experiences within subgroups of humanity are not universal, then how can you hope to have a universal definition of feminism that will adequately apply and benefit everyone?
As I said way in the beginning, it is critical for the success of feminism to have men participate. Feminist men are sexy. Jussayin'. And Ash, feminism has a lot to offer men. A lot. For example, before feminism, men were not considered sexual violence victims. It's because of the work of feminists that men are now recognized as sexual assault victims and can have areas of treatment and prosecution available to them. Another area that feminism attempts to help men is family court situations. Yes, women are primarily awarded child custody but it is because of the patriarchal system that tries to say that women are only useful for reproduction and caring for young. Feminism is trying to change that and the result is that more men will be seen as equally capable of being the custodial parent. These are only two examples, but there are so many more.
I love feminist men. I love their compassion, their strength, and their sense of justice. And as someone else said earlier, there are times where women's voices simply aren't heard. That's when it's critical to have men reiterating what we're saying. That doesn't mean speaking *for* us. It means speaking *with* us so that we can be heard in those spaces.
Hey Ash, you have an interesting point here but I have a question first: do you think it's necessary that feminism has something to offer for men?And secondly, I would like to tell you how feminism influenced my life (I'm a guy). My first contact with feminism actually was through girls who were friends of mine. I'm very interested in politics and I was politicised in a surrounding of people who are left-wing, emancipatory, anarchist and marxist. And in this surrounding of people I also learned to know women with feminist attitudes. I was around 20 years old at that time (I'm 39 now).
Until then I had no connection to feminism at all. I was brought up in a very loving and caring family, my mum is and my dad was socialdemocratic. But they did not bring me in touch with feminist views, neither did I learn something about feminism in school or my circle of friends earlier.
So I came in touch with feminist views later, when I learned to know these anarchist people. And I think I learned a lot from these people. We didn't talk much about feminist theory - it was more like learning by doing.
For example, there have been some situations when I behaved like an idiot and did something which was insulting to women (for example toilet behaviour), then these women gave me hints and told me "hey, Sascha, you have done something really stupid and as a woman I feel insulted, so please don't do it again!"
And another situation: I sometimes work as a journalist and one time I made an interview with a woman and a man together. The guy spoke very much and gave me all the answers, whereas the woman didn't speak much and remained silent most of the time. After the interview, the woman came to me and told me "hey, I have a problem with the way how you carried out the interview. You didn't mind that the guy speaks all the time and I as a woman don't speak much. This is not okay because you, as an interviewer, have to take care that both - the man and the woman - have the same opportunity and time to speak. As you didn't take care of this, I feel that's insulting for me as a woman because I have as much to say as the guy".
So why did I tell you those stories of my life? What I want to say is that I learned by these feminist women to behave more kindly and less stupid towards women. I made mistakes and women told me not to repeat those mistakes and to learn my lesson.
And I think I actually have learned my lesson. Because now I do my best to avoid behaviour that is insulting to women. It's not that I make no mistakes anymore but I reflect more about my own behaviour towards women and try not to insult them. So I would say, I have developped a certain consciousness and I owe this consciousness to the feminist women I have met in my life. So this is something I owe to feminism as a guy and I am thankful for these lessons. If you want to put it this way, you could also say this is something which feminism has offered to me as a guy.
Please excuse me for this very long posting but it seemed necessary to me to tell this story. Thanks for your attention.
Erin wrote: "Wow, so a lot has happened since last night. First, thanks. I appreciate the support. Second, I'm glad this is getting back on track.Now, for why "defining" feminism is a problem and why we can't..."
Agreed with this. (Apart from the part about feminist men being sexy - definitely not true in my case. ;))
Even though the feminist movement isn't primarily for us, we all get to reap the benefits of an equal society.
Crom
Morals ana! We live in the real world. I already explained that to Erin... People don't understand Morals or philosophy now... They underhand things they feel in day to day life. To give them the example of their mother and sister will be far more effective then just saying that they are human beings... I know you all don't agree but that's how the world is.
That is one of the reasons why some men think feminism is bad (view the topic: "Why are people against feminism?")Why do you even ask that question? I am a man and I support feminism, too. Not just because of some ideals like justice, piece or love, but also becaue I think that every human on the world suffers under gender inequality. Men have feelings, too and we are not allowed to show them in public (a crying man is called a wimp :( ) and therefore get huge problems especially in puberty.
I think I can talk for almost every men on the planet that we have all thought about the possibility of suicide. You may wonder why? We are the "stronger" sex? We are privileged? Well, we may be privileged in one way, but on the other hand we aren't allowed to show emotions and we have to face our problems completely alone. We ARE NOT STRONGER! We just have to act like we are and sometimes we get overwhelmed (puberty) and drop into a crises. That is one of the reasons why we have two times more male than female suicides in Germany (where I live).
I hate the point that someone even thought about excluding men from the feminism movement. There are a lot of problems on both sides and we can only fight them as a union. Splitting up right now would be the absolut worst thing to do!
Understand not underhand I really need to change my keyboard and autocorrect options... Lol
Adam wrote: "When I said that you should want to kill us it was just an expression.About violence. If I hit you once it's not your fault. If I do it again you're an idiot. And of course I'm way worse than you..."
Hi Adam,
in all living things there is a balance, asians call it the gin and the yan.
If only womEN should try to make a better place....this will be a DISASTER!!!....welcome welcome welcome!!!! we need our YanS!!
Both men and women should be part of feminism, as feminism seeks equality for both sexes. That's my view on it.
Men can support The feminist movement, The problem is when mens steal female protagonism. we don't pass for The same Thing, mens are not opress, we (mens) are The cause of The opression whith The womans, and, Yes, I'm generalizating, because we can't individualize a problem of The same is something geral. So is dificult say but, in case, all mens are machism, we are in a desconstruction moment, The space of a men in feminist is rethink our privileges
Feminism is about equality, men also need it.
Daniel wrote: "Men can support The feminist movement, The problem is when mens steal female protagonism. we don't pass for The same Thing, mens are not opress, we (mens) are The cause of The opression whith The w..."Oh wow you are a regular white knight my friend...I think your just trying to score points with the ladies...Here is something you don't understand. women hate suck ups, sorry to all the women i just generalized with that statement but it is kind of true right. You can't resect someone who kisses your feet. Wy don't you try seeing everyone as individuals and stop classifying things in terms of men and women Daniel. That is the biggest problem with Feminism.
Elen wrote: "Feminism is about equality, men also need it."I like your thinking, please set this guy right Elen.
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Hm, I didn't read his comment as sucking up necessarily. I think his final point about male privilege is a good and important one. He is right in that systemically, women are oppressed by patriarchy. While men also suffer under patriarchy in a variety of ways, women are disproportionately affected. While it is good to see people as individuals as you suggest, we must also acknowledge the system that has perpetuated the gender equality problem.
Also, it looks like Daniel's first language isn't English. I think we need to remain open-minded because language barriers can make it difficult to fully understand, and try not to jump to conclusions about others' comments.
I personally didn't think dainel was trying to suck up to girls. Yeah language barriers can be tricky here. So please it is a humble request to think for a long time before lashing out a comment to anyone... Especially a disrespectful one.
Women want to be equal in the eyes of their partners. 1. women need to be equal from their own point of view
2. women need to be equal from their partner's (boss, father, brother, policeman's etc) point of view.
If women have male partners, then they need the men to also have the actualization that women are equal. Otherwise women walk around saying they are equal but nothing changes with 1/2 the population.
I agree
I believe that both men and women should be involved. Unequality DOES effect both men and women. Which some people forget. For example: A man can not cry a woman has to have a perfect body. Both things stereotypical and untrue. I believe that getting people to understand and acknowledge that unequality is a large thing.
I also believe that we should not categories demestic violence as a thing only men do ( yes I know that the majority of perpetrators are men but we should not categories it ) like that inequality only effects women. It doesn't. Stereotypes is also another huge mountain we must undertake.
I another issue will be getting men into the movement. We all have rights. More non violent protests would most likely go a long way
I believe that both men and women should be involved. Unequality DOES effect both men and women. Which some people forget. For example: A man can not cry a woman has to have a perfect body. Both things stereotypical and untrue. I believe that getting people to understand and acknowledge that unequality is a large thing.
I also believe that we should not categories demestic violence as a thing only men do ( yes I know that the majority of perpetrators are men but we should not categories it ) like that inequality only effects women. It doesn't. Stereotypes is also another huge mountain we must undertake.
I another issue will be getting men into the movement. We all have rights. More non violent protests would most likely go a long way
Again, my apologies for this delay, was busy creating a little demon that pushes our thread for newcomers on top. It finally works, congratulations!Erin, you wrote:
"feminism has a lot to offer men. A lot. For example, before feminism, men were not considered sexual violence victims..."
I'm sorry, my statements were somewhat vague, and even misleading. Of course, feminism brought and brings a lot of good changes in our society.
But who is an actual force behind those changes? Women feminists. Men can only enjoy the results, as you stated it yourself in your comment. We can actually aggregate these results into a perfect familiar term "gender equality", can't we? And in exchange, we should just get out of feminists way and not interfere.
My bits are:
1. For men, feminism emphasizes undesired behavioral patterns so they are now condemned by vast majority of progressive people (and this is a true success), but doesn't emphasizes anything about desired ones. As a result, even being supportive pro-feminists, we are almost blind on what we can or should do; not to be recognized as true feminist, it's not about words and statuses, but to help women to reach this goal - gender equality. So every pro-feminist man is left to decide on his own, what he can and should do. We are doing those little things every day without being aware of - is this even right thing to do? And, more important, is this enough? Or there is something bigger that I can be engaged in?
2. Consequently, as long as situation is going that way, as long as academic feminism doesn't leave a place for men, there will be a discussions and even fights about can we actually engaged, or more precisely - do we have a right for this. The point of those people who told me and other guys that we can't be feminists, just because we are men, is fairly simple: we just don't know how it is like - to be a woman, so we can't even provide an actual help. Only woman can fully understand the problems of another woman and truly help her. Come on, this statement is simply ridiculous. I mean, alright, this is somewhat reasonable, but there are obvious rational limits for it.
Sascha wrote: "Hey Ash, you have an interesting point here but I have a question first: do you think it's necessary that feminism has something to offer for men?"Who am I to obligate anyone? :-)
Seriously, my previous answer to Erin fully expresses, I think, my point on the question "should there be anything for men in feminism?". Shouldn't be, but it would be very helpful.
Ash, first comes a warning: this posting is gonna be huge again, sorry for that, I just can't come to the point in Twitter-style ;) So, you say that men are somehow excluded because some feminists say that men can't understand a woman's situation and therefore are of no help. But I agree with this attitude. It really is true that men don't know how it is like to make experiences like women do. But I disagree that this is a good reason for going separate ways. Men may not know how it is like to make a woman's experiences but nevertheless, men can be allies and companions for feminism.I hope you agree with me here when I say that it would be desirable when women and men fight together for equality, right? The question is: does it make sense for the feminist movement to adress all men in their entirety or is it more sensible to look first if there are men who are receptive for feminist ideas and then focus on these men and ally with them?
Because actually, it seems to me that there are men - and I guess they are becoming more and more - who have sympathy for feminism. I have read for example that in Istanbul there was a demonstration of men who went to the streets in mini skirts to protest against the sexist violence in Germany. And another example: in Chile, men who identify themselves as feminist organize and discuss what they can do to make life easier for women.
So my impression is that there must be a reason why these men find it important to support feminism. Maybe it's because they see feminism as part of a general engagement for emancipation of humanity. By that I mean that you can not be against discrimination of black people or against discrimination of homosexuals without being against the discrimination of women at the same time. Otherwise it would not make much sense. So I guess men who identify themselves as feminist do this because they have a general desire for a world without inequality and without discrimination.
The other question is how to adress men who don't identify themselves as feminist or at least pro-equality. I think this question is harder to answer to. It depends on the background of these men. Some of them maybe are indifferent and don't care about the issue and others maybe really are against equality.
So it's a difference: when you try to convince someone who just doesn't care or maybe was just not affected by the issue of equality and never thought about it, then this is not the same as when you are confronted with someone who is misogynist and sexist. The first (the indifferent men) may be ready to talk and to learn more about feminism. So they may also be receptive for feminism like the men who identify themselves as feminist. But the others (the sexist and misogynist men) are different. Because in this case you probably will have to fight against their attitudes. And it is quite unlikely - but not impossible, I would say - to educate and convince these men that feminism is a good idea.
So for me the questions are: 1. how to ally with men who already identify themselves as feminist or at least are pro-equality. 2. how to win over men who simply don't care and/or just have no opinion on feminism. And 3. how to deal with men who are openly sexist and misogynist.
And as you mention the desired and undesired behavioral patterns: actually, there are suggestions by feminism. People who fight against rape culture support the idea of consent culture. Consent culture means to negotiate our relationships on an equal level with the aim of making everyone happy and comfortable in a given situation. I think that's something even men can support, or not?
I believe they have every right to be as feminism, though the name gives you the impression it's only about females, is actually about equality for everyone. Men and women are far from equal. Some things men have the upper hand, and some things women do. In order to correct this, we all have to be feminists and work together to get to the same level. Feminism is simply the label we use for the equality movement, and any man willing to show his support for the movement can bare the title "feminist."
I think men are important. If we want the equality we need a change the mindset of men so men and women have to cooperate to change that
Erin wrote: ""Now domestic violence. I don't know how can anybody do that. We don't need to jail them or punish them, actually we need to ask them what if someone did the same to your mother or sister? I treat ..."Absolutely love your point. Exactly what I've been thinking. Thank you for just putting that out there : we women are human beings too, and should be treated like one. I don't really understand why some men and society have such a hard time putting their heads around this. Society wouldn't be doing us any favors for treating us as they would treat men; they would just be returning to us what was our basic right ever since the start of humanity. Keep fighting!
It goes without question that everyone should be a part of feminism, it's feminine traits that are looked down, a men is mistreated in the society too because he possesses some kind of feminine trait or tries to be a part of a occupation or hobby that is primarily dominanted by women, whereas when a women does something that is traditionally related to males, she's criticized for not being capable just because it is a male dominated area
I'm not sure can agree with this. First off, I am a girl and I was never told that I was inferior to men, even when I was taught religion. And whilst I know that feminism is mostly advocated by women more than men, I think it is more than women fighting for our rights. Men fight for feminism too becuase they want an equal society. An equal society is something men and women can both want, and so why can't men fight for it too? And not all feminists are man haters. Feminism is not about bringing men down on the social ladder; its about pushing women up.
Men should be part of the feminist movement but being allys, helping, as white feminism can be allys of black feminism or people without disabilities can help to people with them, because there isnt their fight.
I think the problem with some of the comments I have seen here (Admittedly I have not read them all) is that we are not all working with the same definition of Feminism. Are we talking about taking power away from men? If that is the case then of course men would argue that there is no place for them, but I really hope that no one here actually believes that all feminists want is to dominate men.I prefer a definition of Feminism that stands for equality, and I don't understand why men shouldn't have a place in a world where we are all treated like people with equal rights and interests, where we are all valued as humans with thoughts and opinions rather than providers and breeding machines.
Yes, we live in a society that has evolved over thousands of years and prescribed gender roles are probably going to take many generations to radically change, but doesn't that change have to start somewhere? Why not now? And how much will things change if one side chooses to take no part? It seems to me that excluding men from feminism is the equivalent of an ostrich with its head in the sand.
Yes men should be a part of the feminist movement.As mentioned by others to support women in achieving equality in work places, in achieving the right to make decisions about their own bodies and not having to deal with sexual assaults or sexist slurs on a regular basis.
But also because men need feminism also. Why? Because men shouldn't have to deal with being told to "man up" or "grow a pair" if they feel afraid or express emotion. Because men are less like to reach out for help when dealing with mental health issues, due to the fear of being perceived as weak or less of a man. Because boys are told not to play with dolls or wear certain coloured clothes because they're girls toys or girls colours.
We all need feminism.
I believe that men have a place in the Feminist movement. If a man believes in the equal treatment of women and I don't just mean in payment of jobs. But if you disagree when you know a women is being abused on any way for example the mutilation that women in Africa were experiencing, or if you would go out of your way to help a woman/girl to get out of abusive situations, or sex trade, anything that means you are considered about her wellbeing and all women. That means you are apart of the Feminist movement. Being a feminist does not mean you just think that woman are portrayed incorrectly though yes it does go in to that. But simply that you believe women are treated unfairly or unjustly.
Wake up guys... Morals don't work nowadays... I agree with all of you excluding some but we need to understand that we need practicality in our thoughts. Just saying it's the right of female to be equal is and will always will be enough for us. But it's not us who need to change... It's the oppressor and thay single point won't do anything Male and female are both equally important for making feminism a success and that's the bottom line.
If you have such a good grasp on the way the patriarchy affects our society, and you want that to change, you probably have the right to call yourself feminist. It's about equality, not just women, although that is the focus.
this is a very e good point for comment and i'm a favor because the feminist is a away for iguallity and de sex
I belive men can definitely be feminists. You don't have to be an animal to support animal rights, or gay to be against homophobia. To me, Feminism is not just about rights for women, but about putting right an age old inequality. Men can, and should support this.
Well about the analogy you mentioned... we obviously shouldn't be "firing people for the sake of statistics", but I think the issue is that there are great potential female candidates for CEO positions, however they are usually snubbed or overlooked, the only reason being that they are women.
I think they should. As the image that Emma chose for the group says: Feminism is for everyone!
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I am glad there have been more positive responses since the last time I checked in.
Savannah, thanks for sharing those bullet points. They're really stated clearly and concisely.