10 Jon II - Discuss only this chapter and anything prior

[Hannah]

Discuss.

[Hannah]

Would you consider Catelyn's treatment of Jon to be justified?

When Jon lies about Catelyn being good to him during his visit with Bran, Robb can't see the lie. He believes him. Is this because he trusts his brother or is it because Robb has too much hope for good things to happen? This mirrors the first chapter (Bran I), when Robb sees only that the man died well, yet Jon makes a comment about how the fear in eyes was easy to see.

What does the saying "supple as sin" mean?

And of course, a nice quote: "Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle."

[Gayle]

I think "supple as sin" implies that usually sinful acts feel good or nice. So anything compared to sin must feel nice.

Or at least that's how I understood it.

[Hannah]

Gayle wrote: "I think "supple as sin" implies that usually sinful acts feel good or nice. So anything compared to sin must feel nice.

Or at least that's how I understood it."

Thanks! I was wondering, because I thought the choice of words stood out quite a bit.

[Not_Your_Typical_Lannister (Leslie), Not_Your_Typical_Lannister]

Catelyn's treatment of Jon is not justified under normal circumstances. But I think since her son is in this state and she had not slept in a long time I am willing to cut her some slack.

I think she is insecure and will always be mad about Ned's affair (or whatever we are calling it) which resulted in Jon's birth.

[Hannah]

♫ ♬ ♪ Leslie (aka Basesloaded32) wrote: "Catelyn's treatment of Jon is not justified under normal circumstances. But I think since her son is in this state and she had not slept in a long time I am willing to cut her some slack.

I think..."

I honestly don't think it's justified that she treated Jon horribly for all of his life. I get where she's coming from but for God's sake be mad at Ned! Not the boy that had no choice.

[Not_Your_Typical_Lannister (Leslie), Not_Your_Typical_Lannister]

Yeah Ned would be a better target.

[Brianna]

thoughts while reading:
Catelyn definitely has a problem with Jon. She also seems to feel very guilty about what happened. I found it interesting she opened up to Jon like that.
Robb is almost too trusting.
He is so good with Arya.

[Brianna]

I do believe that Catelyn could be nicer to Jon since it was not his fault he was born. He doesn't seem to throw himself into her face either. He seems okay with avoiding her. I would think there would be more civility just to keep the peace but apparently I'm wrong. lol

[Ria]

Hannah wrote: "What does the saying "supple as sin" mean?"
The first time I read the book, I noticed that Martin compares a lot of things to sin, mostly softness.

About Catelyn hating Jon:
The way I understand it, like Leslie said, she could never forgive Ned about his affair. But she can't really let herself hate him, it would destroy their marriage, their family. And you know the Tully motto: Family, duty, honour. The only choice she has is to direct that hate at someone else. Jon is not only the most obvious, but the most convenient victim - no one would blame her if she hated him. And, didn't she tell him (or someone else) that she hates Jon because every time she looks at him, she is reminded of Ned's betrayal? I'm not really sure where I read that, though.

Btw, in one of the other discussions it was mentioned that Catelyn was actually supposed to marry Brandon. Doesn't that remind you of the story of Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII? She was supposed to marry his older brother, but he died (killed in battle, I think, but I could be wrong) and so she became King Henry's wife. He actually used this as a reason to divorce her - told the Pope that he felt like he had stolen his brother's wife, that he had sinned and that was why God was punishing him by not giving him a son. I know a lot of Martin's inspiration comes from history, but I'm not sure if this one is deliberate or just a coincidence.

[Omar]

I think this is where I first thought Jon was awesome. His relationship with Arya is just sweet.
And in regard to Catelyn this is where for me I started to dislike her. I get that she's grieving for Bran and she's always disliked Jon because it's a constant reminder of Ned's alleged cheating but still she was so harsh.
And Ria that connection to Catherine of Aragon really makes sense, I hope GRRM meant it

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Hannah wrote: "♫ ♬ ♪ Leslie (aka Basesloaded32) wrote: "Catelyn's treatment of Jon is not justified under normal circumstances. But I think since her son is in this state and she had not slept in a long time I am..."

"I honestly don't think it's justified that she treated Jon horribly for all of his life. I get where she's coming from but for God's sake be mad at Ned! Not the boy that had no choice. "

Exactly!!