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The Last of the Mohicans
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Last of the Mohicans - Ch 1-8
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Those are terrific questions for discussion, Lynn. I need to give them some thought. I'm still reading my way through the section and just wanted to say that I'm finding it much more pleasant/interesting than I expected. I do find it funny to see how many words the characters use to say things like "Shh!"
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Lori-That's just to help us stay on schedule. But the threads are usually still open for posting afterwards. For those of us who get behind.
Hi Lori - January 3 through January 9. You can check out the reading schedule thread and see which chapters we are doing each week in the month of January. (We are reading the entire novel over a course of 4 weeks).But, as Renee said, if you want to post after January 9, that's fine as well.
Renee wrote: "Those are terrific questions for discussion, Lynn. I need to give them some thought. I'm still reading my way through the section and just wanted to say that I'm finding it much more pleasant/inter..."It is a better novel than most people give it credit for. The writing isn't the greatest, but the themes in the book are ones that are still relevant today, and it does give us a glimpse at the origins of some of those ideas.
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Oh sorry; my brain isn't working and I was trying to make them fractions! (one third to one ninth) Thanks for clarifying!
I changed the way I did the date in the title - it was confusing.
Lynnm wrote: "Five, were you surprised that Hawkeye, Chingachgook, and Uncas would leave Duncan, Cora, Alice, and David Gamut, knowing that they were leaving them in extreme danger?"Duncan and Gamut, a bit. But I think they knew that Cora and Alice would simply be taken as captives and slaves, not killed, and that if they (HC&U) escaped they would have a chance to rescue them (C&A), whereas if they (HC&U) were killed, as they surely would have been had they stayed, nobody would have any idea what happened to the woman, who had taken them, and where to go to rescue them.
The old adage: those who fight and run away, live to fight another day."
Lynnm wrote: "Four, when comparing Uncas/Chingachgook and Magua, how do the old stereotypes of the "noble savage" and "savage" come into play? .."So far, at least, there is no "grey" in Cooper's Indians. They are either sneaky, evil, and murderous, or virtuous, noble, and honorable. Although come to think of it, most of his characters so far lack much richness of characterization. That doesn't seem to be his strength. He seems to be more into environment, action, and painting a picture of the New York wilderness (seems strange to write those words after having lived in New York state for seven years).
I do like his description of the locations. I know Lake George fairly well, having gone to several week-long conferences at Silver Bay on Lake George and having had time for exploring the lake a bit by canoe.
I agree with Everyman on Question 5. It was the smartest course of action. And it's clever the way Cooper has Cora present the idea so it doesn't look so shabby. Cora seems somewhat modern to me, but it's too early to tell. She's surprising anyway. When I was a kid we camped up on Lake George and toured Fort William Henry. It was an experience that really stuck with me. There must have been a movie or comic book with Cooper's story because I have vivid memories of certain characters. I remember really liking Cora, but not why. I hope that reading the book will flesh out my memories.
Everyman wrote: "So far, at least, there is no "grey" in Cooper's ..."That's what I thought at first.
But in reading the Introduction to my edition, it appears that Cooper was ahead of his time. The author of the Introduction aruges that some of Cooper's descriptions and dialogue appear "patronizing, if not racist, to most twenty-first century readers." However, he notes that Cooper may have been ahead of his time in depicting Chingachgook and Uncas in particular as the "noble savage." (Not that the "noble savage" is good, but better than the treacherous Indian). He was attacked by the critics for having such as a sympathetic view of Native Americans. According to the Introduction, Mark Twain even "began a sequel to Adventures of Huckleberry Finn that takes Huck and Tom into the Indian Territory so he can debunk Cooper's romances by exposing the boys to a series of atrocities committed by treacherous Indians."
I think the problem is that romantic version has persisted until today. Still in film - and I'm thinking of Dances with Wolves here in particular - we see the "good" and "bad" Indian with no grey areas.
But at least now, we get Native American voices, not just white depictions of Native Americans, particularly in non-fiction and literature by Native Americans. It started in the 60s and particularly the 70s...think "I Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee."
Just as a side note, there was a novel in the late 1800s that was even more sympathetic to Native Americans: Ramona by Helen Hunt Jackson. I can't remember a lot about the book because it has been over 10 years since I read it, but I think it is a bit surprisingly for that time, and even more surprising, it was extremely popular.
One last note about some of the arguments in the Introduction. The author of the Introduction said that Joseph Conrad liked Cooper's sea novels. He argues that it may be a bit of a stretch to say that Conrad was thinking of the Last of the Mohicans when he wrote Heart of Darkness, but the idea of who has the heart of darkness - that it is the people who oppress and exploit and destroy the natives not the natives themselves who have a heart of darkness - is seen in both novels.
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It's a bit amusing that so many authors present a dark sister and a fair sister, when, genetically speaking, it's more likely for two sisters to have similar coloring. Sometimes, the fair sister has a more lighthearted temperament, and the dark sister has a more serious temperament. This isn't always the case, but it seems to be so here (I'm also thinking of Minna and Brenda in "The Pirate" by Walter Scott).
I had to google what Hawkeye meant by being "a man without a cross."
Looking forward to the rest of it!
Hmmm. Now I must Google, too. I made the assumption that it meant he wasn't a missionary.
Renee wrote: "Hmmm. Now I must Google, too. I made the assumption that it meant he wasn't a missionary."That's what I thought as well...
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If you use the "find" option to locate "cross" in this document, it gives a couple explanations:
http://external.oneonta.edu/cooper/te...
I found a couple other essays on this phrase too, but I didn't read them all the way through because I'm not sure if they have spoilers. Will probably read them after I finish the novel:
http://external.oneonta.edu/cooper/ar...
http://external.oneonta.edu/cooper/ar...
Just skimmed the first few paragraphs. How very interesting! The possibility of Hawkeye referring to the fact that he had no Native American blood did occur to me, but he said it so often that I thought it must be something about not being a missionary. That perhaps missionaries had a different status or something. I look forward to reading the rest of the essay. Thanks, Lori!
I'm curious about something. In my edition of the book, the Library of America edition, there are various footnotes which look as though they may have been Coopers. There are, for example, two in the first two pages of chapter 2, one about the Indian confederation and one about the Narraganset Indians in the Rhode Island region. I'm wondering whether these really are from Cooper and are part of the work, or whether they were added by the LoA editors. Do other editions have these footnotes?
Does anybody else sense a certain incongruity in epigraphs from Shakespeare in a book about the American wilderness?
As a former wilderness canoeist, I really appreciated the description of the river in Chapter 6. It seems almost human in its perversity, in its changeableness and roughness followed by peace and calm. "Ay! there are the falls on two sides of us, and the river above and below. If you had daylight, it would be worth the trouble to step up on the height of this rock, and look at the perversity of the water. It falls by no rule at all; sometimes it leaps, sometimes it tumbles; there it skips; here it shoots; in one place 'tis white as snow, and in another 'tis green as grass; hereabouts, it pitches into deep hollows, that rumble and crush the 'arth; and thereaways, it ripples and sings like a brook, fashioning whirlpools and gullies in the old stone, as if 'twas no harder than trodden clay. The whole design of the river seems disconcerted. First it runs smoothly, as if meaning to go down the descent as things were ordered; then it angles about and faces the shores; nor are there places wanting where it looks backward, as if unwilling to leave the wilderness, to mingle with the salt. Ay, lady, the fine cobweb-looking cloth you wear at your throat is coarse, and like a fishnet, to little spots I can show you, where the river fabricates all sorts of images, as if having broke loose from order, it would try its hand at everything. And yet what does it amount to! After the water has been suffered so to have its will, for a time, like a headstrong man, it is gathered together by the hand that made it, and a few rods below you may see it all, flowing on steadily toward the sea, as was foreordained from the first foundation of the 'arth!"
Everyman wrote: "I'm curious about something. In my edition of the book, the Library of America edition, there are various footnotes which look as though they may have been Coopers. There are, for example, two in t..."My B&N edition has the Cooper footnotes as well. They must be considered part of the novel.
Everyman wrote: "Does anybody else sense a certain incongruity in epigraphs from Shakespeare in a book about the American wilderness?"Definitely.
In my B&N edition, it says that novels at that time were still considered frivolous so some authors used quotes from famous texts to make their novels appear more serious.
Everyman wrote: "As a former wilderness canoeist, I really appreciated the description of the river in Chapter 6. It seems almost human in its perversity, in its changeableness and roughness followed by peace and c..."The nature descriptions are beautiful. I can really picture the setting.
My edition's intro is written by Cooper's daughter, but I haven't read all of it, just parts to see if I could get a handle on Cooper's attitude towards Indians/Native Americans. She is adamant that he was virtually alone in his defense of the different tribes.So, clearly, from the get-go we need to acknowledge that Cooper has the mindset of a dominant white male in his basically superior view of all the Native Americans (at some point he even sees Uncas as "close" to expressing compassion, an emotion he claimed was foreign to "savages," even the Mohicans (this comment comes a little later than Ch 8 I think)).
However, I feel his racist failings are from ignorance, not intent. And I don't know anyone who hasn't suffered the same failing at some point in life, so this has to be forgiveable to some degree, and especially in order to read this book without cringing every other paragraph. Cooper's treatment of women is also interesting, tho' similar in ignorance as well as good intent.
Three, Cooper appears to create a power hierarchy between the male characters. How and why?Good question. The older men, clearly more experienced, are naturally acknowledged as the leaders of the group (Hawkeye and Chingachgook). I was surprised when Hawkeye assumed he had the authority to give Uncas a command, but I don't think he has the same attitude towards Heyward.
Lori's excellent link to the professor's lecture notes compares the men in the party as mirroring each other:
•The mirroring of characters highlights the regenerative theme of violence and the permanence of race.
•Hawkeye is the link between the savage and civilized states.
•Hawkeye is a mirror image of Chingachgook.
•Hawkeye is also juxtaposed with David Gamut.
•Duncan Heyward is the racial opposite of Uncas; Uncas’s name is contained within Duncan’s.
•Magua and Montcalm are red and white versions of each other.
•Uncas and Magua are opposites within their Indianness.
•The racial pairings are mirrored by narrative and formal strategies.
I have no idea where David fits into the group. He seems to be the last person in the world who should be on this journey.
Lynnm wrote: "In my B&N edition, it says that novels at that time were still considered frivolous so some authors used quotes from famous texts to make their novels appear more serious. .."Interesting. Thanks for bringing that into the discussion.
Are there other notes of interest in that edition that aren't spoilers? My Library of America edition is devoid of any introduction or notes.
Janice George (JG) wrote: "Good question. The older men, clearly more experienced, are naturally acknowledged as the leaders of the group (Hawkeye and Chingachgook).."Chingachgook is certainly older. But is Hawk-eye older than Gamut or Heyward?
Heyward is described as "A young man, in the dress of an officer." But I don't find, on an initial look, any indication of age for the others.
Janice George (JG) wrote: "Hawkeye is a mirror image of Chingachgook..."I realize that this is from lecture notes, not necessarily your opinion, but I don't see it, at least at first glance.
Everyman wrote: "Janice George (JG) wrote: "Hawkeye is a mirror image of Chingachgook..."I realize that this is from lecture notes, not necessarily your opinion, but I don't see it, at least at first glance."
I think they are the two most experienced men of the group, one white, one Native American. Somewhere I believe Hawkeye says that he has had years and years of experience with the woods and the Native tribes.
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Chingachgook is certainly ol..."
I think I remember seeing somewhere that Hawkeye said something about "thirty years" (experience with the forest, maybe), so he should be at least 30. I picture Heyward around 25 or so. Gamut... no idea.
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Chingachgook is certainly ol..."
I think I remember Hawkeye saying something about "thirty years" (experience with the forest, maybe), so he should be at least 30. Heyward sounds about 25. Gamut... no idea. But he's kind of a "child" in this particular context, since he has no experience with weapons or the wilderness - not even much sense, as Cora does.
I've tried to research it and can't seem to find an answer on Hawkeye's age, but since Chingachgook is an old friend of his, and Uncas is his adult son, Hawkeye might be older than 30...maybe more 35-40?
Janice George (JG) wrote: "Three, Cooper appears to create a power hierarchy between the male characters. How and why?Good question. The older men, clearly more experienced, are naturally acknowledged as the leaders of the..."
That's a nice list.
But I would also have to disagree about Hawkeye and Chingachgook mirroring each other.
Hawkeye is far more volatile and impulsive than Chingachgook...as well as more talkative, always giving his opinion on things, while Chingachgook is quiet. And a bit younger (even though we can't figure an age, I would guess he's somewhere in-between Chingachgook's and Uncas' ages).
They are, however, both a sort of leader.
Lynnm wrote: "But I would also have to disagree about Hawkeye and Chingachgook mirroring each other....They are, however, both a sort of leader. ."
In fact, rather then mirroring each other, in a way, picking up on the points you noted, I see them almost as representing two almost opposite styles of leadership.
Everyman wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "But I would also have to disagree about Hawkeye and Chingachgook mirroring each other....They are, however, both a sort of leader. ."
In fact, rather then mirroring each other, in a..."
I haven't read the whole article, so I don't know if he follows up with an explanation. Why d'ya suppose he would say that?
One, what are some of the contrasting characteristics (personalities and physical) between the characters? For example, between Cora and Alice, Hawkeye and Duncan, Hawkeye and Uncas/Chingachgook, Uncas/Chingachgook and Magua?
Two, Cooper continuously refers to dark/light when referring to Cora and Alice. How is that symbolic? Neither Cora and Alice have large roles at this point in the novel, but in Chapter 8, how does Cora break traditional female gender stereotypes?
Three, Cooper appears to create a power hierarchy between the male characters. How and why?
Four, when comparing Uncas/Chingachgook and Magua, how do the old stereotypes of the "noble savage" and "savage" come into play? Do we see these same stereotypes in books/film/TV today?
Five, were you surprised that Hawkeye, Chingachgook, and Uncas would leave Duncan, Cora, Alice, and David Gamut, knowing that they were leaving them in extreme danger?
Six, the natural world (upper New York State) as the setting of the novel plays a large role in developing the narrative. How?