James Baldwin
discussion
James Baldwin - BR Maya & Sofia Dec 2015
Sofia wrote: "Maya wrote: "Sofia wrote: "Maya wrote: "I actually made a note to check it later because it was mentioned as a reference to the Bible which meaning I don't know:If we do not now dare everything, ..."
thanks for explaining, i understand what you mean now.
Maya wrote: "chapter 23 - he got very intense with the play here. I imagine it was a nightmare to be around him during these days.Inevitably, he took stock of his life and realized that fame and success and h..."
I could imagine him screaming and jumping. His feelings for Rip are a kind of mirror for play. Black - white, can the colour be forgotten.
Feel rather sad at the end of the chapter because this feels like bailing out a leaking boat and water keeps pouring in.
I want fast solutions but there are none. Militancy has rebound effects. The non violent approach can be seen as without any teeth. I'd go for strong love nurturing a cycle of love but how to work that i don't know.
Good morning Maya. Will read chap 24 later and open your spoiler.
My Childhood - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjfxk...Rip Torn (the same guy of Men In Black)
Bessie Smith - Blues https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uujL3...
If you see my "Watch Later" list on youtube ...I've now read further but will wait for you to catch up so we can chat.
For me the book got much better - somehow much more personal - from the moment the author knew JB personally and spent time with him.
I'm listening to the Baldwin - Buckley Debate on youtube while I work.I started chap 24 - will let you know where I am
Baldwin - Buckley debateTell me what you think, Baldwin was Baldwin as always, articulate and understandable. Buckley not so much, was it me or was he condescending?
Sofia wrote: "Baldwin - Buckley debateTell me what you think, Baldwin was Baldwin as always, articulate and understandable. Buckley not so much, was it me or was he condescending?"
i just got home, will watch it now.
That was an awesome video! I teared-up when everyone stood on their feet and applauded Baldwin.And now that I know he managed to make this speech just weeks after the breakdown he had ... isn't it amazing how his thought flow, there's no digression, no fillers.
As for Buckley - he had this air of superiority about him and I thought he was very theatrical in all his gestures and pauses. But his whole thesis that no other country has ever done so much as America is doing for it's minorities is so weak. I'm not familiar with him so I can't say if attacking Baldwin by calling his arguments abstract is something he truly meant or was only for the purpose of the debate. Either way, the fact that he had to resort to personal attacks already showed me he was defeated.
Maya wrote: "chapter 24[spoilers removed]
The debate in Cambridge is on youtube also but it's over an hour long. I've bookmarked it to watch later."
Just finished. Yes re Lucien. I find that what makes a person is manifested in all areas of our life. What's within is reflected without in the small as well as the big things.
Going to start chap 25. Don't know if I'll finish it as i got a migraine and the light from Scibd is hurting my eyes :(
no worries, take care of the migraine before it gets bad. I have set my scribd background to sepia mode and it's bearable this way.
It is sepia but it's too much.Finished chap 25 and that's it for tonight.
A good chapter
It was not a crime to need another person. The crime lay in the unforgivable “lie” that people do not need each other.
Excerpt From: "James Baldwin: A Biography" by David Leeming. Scribd.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Read this book on Scribd: https://www.scribd.com/book/257941579
The personal and the public life interwining.
For me 25 was one of the most interesting chapters so far (same as 26 but we'll talk about it later). I felt like a barrier fell down and revealed a vulnerability in him that was so far somewhat hidden from us. Not because he didn't want it seen but, I think, because David L.- having spent so much time with him at this point - was able to show it here. And of course the things he revealed from their personal correspondence helped. He knew he had become increasingly “possessed” and withdrawn, but this was because he had an immense amount of work to do and little time in which to do it. And in any case, the fact that he was inward looking did not mean he was not concerned with others.
This state of his was perhaps heightened by the dilemma he had about Lucien and the events in the South but I feel some urgency about him that wasn't there before.
I would be coping with an obsessional and demanding man who was a mixture of “ruthlessness” and “helplessness,” who was at once highly elusive and available to all.
I think the personal element in chap 25 and chap 26 gives us the more intimate view of personal knowledge. I liked these chapters.I keep hoping that with Lulu out of the way he might find what he needs but I don't think he will. As he says his is a life of conflict.
Baldwin - Buckley debate - I read somewhere that an after debate vote was 544 in favour of Baldwin and around 108 or 180 in favour of Buckley. So our view of the debate was the same as the view at the time.
I read Chap 27 as well - it's a short one. Baldwin writing this book was like doing a summary of his life. Tough. I admire that he is not afraid to do so. What I am getting most from reading him is so completely Socrates 'Know Thyself' - see yourself, recognize what you are, work with yourself.
Hope I can do more later after work. Where are you?
I stopped at the end of chapter 26 yesterday and want to read 27, 28 and 29 today.How's the migraine?
It's better this morning. I hope it totally goes away as I'm afraid it'll come back again.chap 27 is short but 28 is a long one :)
chapter 26 - another very interesting read. The incident in Turkey, the road trip with Beauford - like with the chapter before because it came from the personal experience of the author i thought it was written better than most of the previous chapteers. I think Baldwin is growing more and more hopeless and what he's going through emotionally now reminded me of what happened to Beauford earlier. Their fight is taking a lot from them.
He had won great battles as a writer, and he was still fighting. But the society he had hoped to change remained hopelessly at war with itself; an essential evil still plagued his nation and the world, and a personal wound marred his life.
and then:
I must understand that disorder was in a sense a necessary aspect of his life as a writer. He could not afford to be tamed.
27 - He knows that to “people who imagine themselves to be, as they put it, in their ‘right’ minds,” he was “insane,” and that his “absolutely single-minded and terrified ruthlessness” was in conflict with his “vulnerability,” his “paradoxical and very real helplessness,” his “need to … weep long and loud, to be held in human arms, almost any human arms, to hide my face in any human breast, to … let it out, to be brought into the world, and, out of human affection, to be born again.”
Tempted to read Tell Me How Long the Train's Been Gone but scared that it will be a difficult read. What do you think?
Sofia wrote: "It's better this morning. I hope it totally goes away as I'm afraid it'll come back again.chap 27 is short but 28 is a long one :)"
Maybe you need a longer rest?
Why not stay at home for a day or two if you don't have urgent work?
28 is long, yes. Well, let's see how we do, no need to rush :)
I enjoyed that road trip very much, for David it was a bit of a worry. I'd love to know how Richard turned out.I thought we were going to try and read his whole lot :D
Sofia wrote: "I enjoyed that road trip very much, for David it was a bit of a worry. I'd love to know how Richard turned out.I thought we were going to try and read his whole lot :D"
Maybe we'll meet Richard again in he next chapters. I wonder why his last name is never mentioned. I wanted to find the portraits that Beauford drew of Richard and of Leeming but couldn't.
Ok, we'll read everything! :D
Across the street from the entrance gate for the Pasha's library
Amazing Grace: A Life of Beauford DelaneyDavid's book about Beauford
I can't find that portrait either.
Did you see how many portraits of Baldwin he had drawn through the years?Beauford's biography is not on scribd and the kindle edition is $27!!
Yes he did so many of him.I love his colours they remind me of van Gogh, the yellows, the blues.
Steep price :(
Maya wrote: "Sofia wrote: "It's better this morning. I hope it totally goes away as I'm afraid it'll come back again.chap 27 is short but 28 is a long one :)"
Maybe you need a longer rest?
Why not stay at h..."
I left work early today in fact, going to rest a bit before I continue as the migraine said hello ago.
sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon :(I just read 28 - its last pages are photos so it didn't take that long to read.
It's a year of violence in America and his efforts to show it as it is in a Hollywood movie - as you may suspect - failed.
I'm in the middle of chap 28It hurts to see his disillusionment regarding the 'fight' and also his clutching at straws in his private life.
Of course Hollywood must retain it's 'dream' candy factor :(and then I wonder how things don't change. If the 'official' outlook(Hollywood, official rethoric) is presented to outsiders (like us) as something and it is up to us to seek the truth (which we have to strive for and which not all of us see the need for). Then it is more of an uphill battle for the 'fighters' to continue the fight. And we wonder why the loss of heart.
Beauford looks so fragile in that photo.
Sofia wrote: "Beauford looks so fragile in that photo."He does. There's a lot on him in chapter 29 - his health had deteriorated significantly in the 70s :(
Sofia wrote: "Of course Hollywood must retain it's 'dream' candy factor :(and then I wonder how things don't change. If the 'official' outlook(Hollywood, official rethoric) is presented to outsiders (like us) ..."
Yes, this was a defeat that cost him a lot.
Was Hollywood ever about art? Or was it a money machine from the beginning?
He knew he made a mistake by taking a contract with them but he just can't let go of his dream to make a movie.
29 - There were three distinct beings within his psyche, he said: a “mad-man” determined to change the world, a “fragile, gifted … child” with overly sensitive feelings, and a “superbly paranoiac … ridiculous ice-and-fire intelligence” that remembered every wrong that had been done to him and waited with enthusiasm for the ultimate “Reckoning.”
(view spoiler)
I'm stopping here tonight. I have a feeling the remaining chapters will be the most difficult to read.
James Baldwin in Turkey: From Another Place - 1973 :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4QVc...
(11 minutes)
Good morning MayaI have some time to catch up this morning as I'm working late today.
Chap 29
I see that you highlighted what I did :)
I hate the disillusionment, fearing the end. Giving your life as a witness and then turning to find people criticising from all corners. I know that is public life but it's tough especially if the private life is so wonky.
I wondered about the hepatitis too plus I keep thinking of Aids.
I know that meeting a right person is half luck and half psychology. With him I wonder if it's all psychology. His love affairs all seem doomed. Is this Leeming view though?
Good morning, lovely!There's probably some of Leeming's interpretation of Jimmy's love life but i got the impression JB spoke openly (in letters and in conversations) about his feelings and his state of mind and the choices (wrong and right) he made in his relationships so i'm imagining Leeming wrote it as Baldwin's words led him to.
Yoran Cazac - another doomed love affair:
Maya wrote: "James Baldwin in Turkey: From Another Place - 1973 :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4QVc...
(11 minutes)"
Loved that bit when he is laughing at the camera.
That bit that love comes in strange packages, we read it recently. Accepting life, love does mean that we have to open our eyes to see possibilities, to see differently. What if what we need is all around us but we just don't see it?
Chap 30He answered that he was “a lover and therefore an optimist … the trick is to love somebody…. If you love one person, you see everybody else differently.”
Excerpt From: "James Baldwin: A Biography" by David Leeming. Scribd.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Read this book on Scribd: https://www.scribd.com/book/257941579
This settled my mind about Fonny's release, leaves me worried about their future. Sad that Tony Maynard remained a prisoner inside his mind :(
Love life, despite all the disillusion he continues trying, i bang my head and he continues.
Yes Leeming does back things up and when I match the youtube videos we are watching to what we are reading, it matches.
Just read chapter 30 too.I hadn't understood all the meanings of prison Baldwin put into Fonny's story when i read If Beatle Street Could Talk, it was interesting to learn about them here.
The way i understood what i read here, i think Fonny was released not only from the physical prison but the mental one because he had the love and protection of Tish and her family. So i think Fonny and Tish will be ok.
As long as they have the love they will win yes. Love gives hope. I just get anxious becausecof the things against them. I should practise more live : D
chapter 31(view spoiler)
He could understand now—too late—how his “helpless ruthlessness” had frightened Lucien away, not only emotionally, but sexually; how could anyone feel contentment “in the arms of a tornado”? Yet, he did not regret having searched so hard for love. It was better to love, even badly, than to choose the emptiness of “safety.”
that quote is making want to read this soonest. Working :(
I take a break from reading every 10 pages or so in these last chapters. He's in the stage where he's looking back at his whole life and it's not easy to read because as always he's extremely honest.
Chap 31Hard and great to read
Hard and painful because of Beauford.
Smiling and great because of the lectures. I would have love to attend at least one : D
His introspection about his private life maybe will help his choices, his decisions. I'm ever hopeful.
I think the aftermath of the civil rights battle created that feeling of passe. Like he was not militant enough for some or very militant to others. And people might have gotten used to his 'words' and wanted to turn away. I keep thinking of John the Baptist preaching alone in the desert.
I told you these final chapters will be tough on us. I think he felt time slipping through his fingers, his mission still to be fulfilled and that made him more restless than ever. I just read 32 (it's very short) - we must leave Just Above My Head as our final read as it is apparently his confession - he is in every character in this book.
So 33 and 34 tomorrow? Now that we've spent time with him everyday for the last 2 weeks I feel very sad that we are at the end of the book.
Sofia wrote: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8klsr...Baldwin Berkley lecture - hope to watch tomorrow."
oh thanks, i'll watch it too.
Ok I'll do 32 tonight and the rest tomorrow, yeah I'm going to miss all this :(Reading chronologically makes good sense.
watching the video - he's in a great mood! Laughing and smiling a lot. I think he loved communicating with young people.
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(view spoiler)[So Lucien didn't grow up despite JB's influence. It was a bad idea to mix business with personal relationship anyway. (hide spoiler)]
The debate in Cambridge is on youtube also but it's over an hour long. I've bookmarked it to watch later.