James Baldwin - BR Maya & Sofia Dec 2015

[Sofia]

Ok understood, i thought it was something to do we with their sexual compatibility.

[Sofia]

He reminded his brother that racism is based on fear, that when the white racist confronts the black man, what he sees is not the individual man but a “nightmare” of his own creation. Above all, he said, “you must take care not to step inside” his nightmare, his guilt, and his fear, his hatred. To step into the nightmare is to justify it and to relinquish the soul’s freedom and the control over one’s life. To enter the nightmare is to become a “nigger.”

Excerpt From: "James Baldwin: A Biography" by David Leeming. Scribd.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Read this book on Scribd: https://www.scribd.com/book/257941579

[Sofia]

Read chapter 8 as well. I'm looking at Go Tell It on the Mountain differently then i did before after having read these first eight chapters.

[Sofia]

Do you want to do chap 9 tonight?

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Do you want to do chap 9 tonight?"

I just read it. It's very short.

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Read chapter 8 as well. I'm looking at Go Tell It on the Mountain differently then i did before after having read these first eight chapters."

yes, I think when we were reading the book we understood it was more or less autobiographical but now we know what the ghost of the past he needed to chase were.

I am still amazed that that he found it in him to forgive his stepfather, to raise above the hatred that was bred into him.

[Sofia]

That is one of the things I love about him, that he did not let the hatred of others dictate how he lives. In a way by choosing love he is giving the finger to all the hatred and I love that.

[Sofia]

ok then I'll do chap 9 now :)

I'm working tomorrow, so it will be afternoon/evening reading for me.

[Sofia]

Chap 8 - Eric coming to terms that Yves might some day leave him - I'd say this was Baldwin trying to live with Lucien as is.

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "ok then I'll do chap 9 now :)

I'm working tomorrow, so it will be afternoon/evening reading for me.

"

no rush, dear.

I'll start another book tonight - just haven't decided what yet.

Chapter 9
(view spoiler)[Broken-hearted and nostalgic. At least now having published his first full length novel puts him on the map as a serious writer. (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Chap 8 - Eric coming to terms that Yves might some day leave him - I'd say this was Baldwin trying to live with Lucien as is."

yes! Although the end of Another Country gave us hopes for Eric and Yves' future together it seems this wasn't the case for James and Lucien.

[Sofia]

no unfortunately - if like Leeming says he was attracted to straight guys who were not averse to homosexual intercourse, that is not a recipe for finding a lover/companion/partner he so desperately craved. I'm sad about this.

[Sofia]

He knew that he had not faced something in himself, something that had to do with love, his need to be loved, and the relation of that need to his own identity.

Excerpt From: "James Baldwin: A Biography" by David Leeming. Scribd.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Read this book on Scribd: https://www.scribd.com/book/257941579

[Sofia]

You wrote :
Chapter 9
[Broken-hearted and nostalgic. At least now having published his first full length novel puts him on the map as a serious writer.

Yes, sad, this. I keep thinking that if he had loved someone like Beauford they could have found the stability, security both longed for. Sometimes its a pity we cannot consciously choose whom to love . Although I do think we choose unconsciously. I do wonder if its part of JB not accepting his sexual orientation that makes him choose 'straight' guys. I also wonder if an artist with a 'happy' life can produce the same kind of work as the tortured ones do.

[Maya]

Although I do think we choose unconsciously. I do wonder if its part of JB not accepting his sexual orientation that makes him choose 'straight' guys. I also wonder if an artist with a 'happy' life can produce the same kind of work as the tortured ones do.

ah, very philosophical questions.

Are there happy artists? I don't think so.I think that for someone to be a good writer for example - they need to have a deep understanding of the human nature, and compassion. And that I think requires sensibility that not many people have. Which is what their gift is but also their hell. Take JB for example - when we read we can feel how true and honest all the emotions in his words are. But there's only one way for this honesty to be achieved.

As for the men he fell in love with/was attracted to - I thought about that too, and there probably is a reason for it but I'm also taking into account here that this is the author's interpretation. I am inclined to think that these men were somewhere on the bisexuality scale.

[Sofia]

sad for the artists

yes bisexuality is a factor. Even JB had relations with women. It is unfortunate that his choices do not appear to have his need to have a home.

I read chap 10 this morning before coming to work.


GOOD MORNING MAYA

[Maya]

Morning :D

It's snowing here today :(

Will catch up with you in the afternoon.

[Sofia]

Sunny here but I'm at work :(

[Maya]

Chapter 10:

Baldwin felt that he must reveal his experience not in the form of protest literature, not as a “Negro writer,” but as a writer. In order to achieve this goal he had to reach out beyond the ghetto for his audience.

So determined.

Chapter 11:

… to remove himself from the pressure of friends who did not seem to understand the fact that he had a mission that rendered him lonely and vulnerable and neither safe, respectable, married, well employed, nor happy: “I’m not really interested in being what Americans call ‘happy.’”

Still travelling, still searching, a restless spirit.
But we also see why it's so difficult for his lovers to stay with him - he put work first.

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Sunny here but I'm at work :("

I'm sorry, I hope at least it's not a very busy day.

Let me know if you want to read more chapters tonight.

[Sofia]

I'm back home now. Got some stuff to do then I'll read chap 11, will let you know :D

[Sofia]

James (29yrs), Beauford and Lucien (21 yrs) - Paris 1953

[Maya]

Lucien looks older that 21, doesn't he?

[Sofia]

That's what I thought. He was born in 1932 and this is 1953 so simple minus.

[Maya]

Your math is correct. I remember it was mentioned that he was 17 yo when JB met him in 1949.
I guess I just had a different image if him in my head, more romanticised :)

[Sofia]

We have to leave off our romantic veil here :)

Ive just finished chap 11

- that point about mothers wanting their sons to be men and at tge same time to protect them. In a way I feel this with my son, I thought him how to be an honourable man at the same time he needs a certain shrewd cunning to survive out in the world. I'd imagine it was more so for black Americans.

-- being safe or living your life. This is so so true. And sometimes we choose what society deems as safe and still we end up with pie in our face. Safety does not always let us breath.


I can start and probably finish 12 tonight.

[Maya]

ok, I will read 12 later tonight too.

[Maya]

chapter 12 - Transition
Or the end of his idealism. Finally recognized for his work but unhappier than ever.

As he looked back on this period, Baldwin saw this crisis as signifying the death of his early idealism about love and success. He had had success and he had had love and he was still a prisoner of his particular condition, his particular inheritance.

[Sofia]

chap 12 ready

I think he wanted the happy in his life, like we all do, something/someone to call his and he is finding out that for most of us that 'happy' is transitory and that the 'happy' takes work as well. He is further burdned by 'his particular inheritance'.

About lack of roots
When the slaves were stolen from Africa, they lost Africa as well (their roots) and then in America they were denied roots where to grow. I got thinking about this because he keeps talking about identity and the difference he feels between himself and an African and also between himself and a white American. It is difficult to be a people with out roots because there is then even a problem in calling yourself 'people'

Going back to the grindstone now, I'll read more later.

[Maya]

hi girl :)

I won't have time to read tonight. Going over to friends for dinner and drinks and to say goodbye to 2015.

Are you celebrating tonight?

[Sofia]

Enjoy yourself darling - i wish you the bestest year coming : D

We're staying in tonight, we'll celebrate with family tomorrow

Yeah we'll read more tomorrow or...............:)

[Maya]

Thank you! I wish you a wonderful year :)
I'm ok to do a couple of chapter today.

[Sofia]

Good morning and good year Maya, did you enjoy yourself last night?

Yes I can read some after our lunch guests leave.

[Maya]

I did, good friends, good food - what's better than that :D

Hope you have a pleasant lunch, chat later :)

[Maya]

Reading chapter 13:


Love is at the heart of the Baldwin philosophy. Love for Baldwin cannot be safe; it involves the risk of commitment, the risk of removing the masks and taboos placed on us by society. The philosophy applies to individual relationships as well as to more general ones. It encompasses sexuality as well as politics, economics, and race relations. And it emphasizes the dire consequences, for individuals and racial groups, of the refusal of love.

[Sofia]

I've just finished chap 13 and it brought back the goodness of reading Giovanni's Room last year. How if i read it again I'm going to see the added nuances l learnt from this book. The wider analogies mentioned here are true.

His conclusions how being dishonest about and to yourself has far reaching effects. How if this dishonesty becomes a sort of religion or societal belief it spreads its reign of pain.

[Sofia]

The lunch went very very well. Only a little leftover ham left :)

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "I've just finished chap 13 and it brought back the goodness of reading Giovanni's Room last year. How if i read it again I'm going to see the added nuances l learnt from this book. The wider analog..."

Yes to everything you've said. That was an excellent chapter and I loved the analysis of both the book and the bigger meaning of JB's words.

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "The lunch went very very well. Only a little leftover ham left :)"

good! now, what about dinner?:P
(I've been very lazy today. Just threw some chicken and potatoes in the oven and that was it)

[Maya]

chapter 14 - now that we know in what period of his life he wrote Another Country I'm very curious to read the chapter about the book.

[Maya]

chapter 15 - The journey south

I got carried away and read that too.
(view spoiler)[Learning a lot. It's probably very naïve of me but I've never thought about a connection between sex and racism. But his arguments are more than convincing.

So he is once again a foreigner - a Northerner in the South.
Interesting that he felt wary of M. King because he was a preacher. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Oh i just had fruit and cheese :D

I'll do chap 14 and 15

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "chapter 14 - now that we know in what period of his life he wrote Another Country I'm very curious to read the chapter about the book."

He keeps mentioning the lack of clarityin what the characters wanted which we did experience when reading. Yes I'm curious too..

I hope life is better in America. The Paris dream seems to have fizzled out. I guess it's not only the place that makes the man.

[Maya]

I think he returns to Paris again after some time in the US. I don't think he's ever found a place where he truly felt he could settle - there's just too much that occupies his thoughts to allow him to feel content.

[Sofia]

Just finished chap 15

With Baldwin it's not just reading a story, a life, it's philosophy and psychology and humanity.

I did not think if the connection between sex and racism either, silly of me considering that sex is a prime mover in our lives.

I was thinking about Fear, the fear the white southerner felt, how this fear is a result of the equality that is there but the equality they are trying to deny. Let me try to explain. If I did something wrong, I would fear retaliation because I would accept the fact that the victim has the natural right to redress the wrong doing because that is the natural right I would feel if someone did wrong to me. So the agressor and the victim are equal. So the fear is a result of that equality and the racism, the myths, the hate are just a result of trying to deny that the wrong doing (slavery, rape, killing, violence) happened. But the denial continues the circle of violence and elaborate reasonings and social structures are built to try and keep the guilt away and all this is inherited from the past and continues if the cycle is not broken. This can be applied to other 'world conflicts' around us as well.

Sorry for the long thoughts, I'm trying to reason out the flashes of brilliance I get while reading this and Good Morning of course : D

[Maya]

Good morning:)
And interesting thoughts!

I made up a simpler explanation in my head for this fear - they were/are afraid that their privileges will be taken away should equality be accepted. So they acted violently out of hatred. Like the bullies act out because of the things they can't accept about themselves. And this makes them the weaker person, not their victim.

To be honest I've never thought that if I did something wrong to another person my fear would be of retaliation. I would fear the punishment that would come from the law - prison, etc.
But I agree with you that they felt it was their right to harm these people as they thought lesser of them (because inheritance, prejudice) so they denied the fear.

[Sofia]

I'd say yes to your thoughts as well. I find that there is never one explaination to a human difficulty or action, usually it is a combination.

Retaliation, justice. punishment (by law or by victim), equalising are all facets of the same thing probably. And even if I personally would not be able to retaliate or get justice if imposed upon, I would still feel the need for it, I would still cry out silently or loudly 'but that's not fair or that's not right'

So the whites in the US had the backing of the law in how they treated the blacks but still their 'guilt' at their actions made them create 'reasons' to allieviate or excuse the guilt like:

Oh that's ok, God is on my side
Oh that's ok he is not human like me or lesser than me
Oh that's ok he will be more violent that me if I let him, so incarcerate him

etc etc.

The God is on my side was used and is used to take, make war on people the whole world over.

We shall have to take a brain tonic all the thinking that Baldwin is making us do.

Baldwin is good for you, he exercises your brain

Are you doing chap 16 today? - I'm up for it.

[Maya]

Yes, I want to read at least 2 more chapters today but it will have to be in the evening for me.
I have to do my "favorite" tasks today - cleaning, laundry, etc. which I have postponed for days now :/

[Maya]

Chapter 16 -

He was struck by his own loneliness and aware that this was a condition essential to his life and personality, a condition he would have to learn to accept, wherever he eventually decided to live.

[Sofia]

still reading chap 16



I don't know what it says - I think it's in Turkish

I'm becoming more and more curious to read his non fiction essays.

Your quote above. Acceptance is not surrender. I think it brings peace.