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God and the New Physics
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Is religion incompatible with science?
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It may not be quantum physics which solves the riddle...it should be mathematics because everything in this world can be explained through mathematics. Even the basis of physics is mathematics.
Mathews wrote: "It may not be quantum physics which solves the riddle...it should be mathematics because everything in this world can be explained through mathematics. Even the basis of physics is mathematics."But what about beyond this Earth and/or beyond this dimension (if other dimensions exist as quantum physics suggests with parallel universes etc)? Can mathematics explain the far reaches of this Universe and beyond like quantum physics potentially can?
I am not a mathematician...but I believe there are equations which can define the entire universe..,one example is the euhler's formula
The greatest defect of physics I believe is that it never tried to explain consciousness..if they have started doing it it's good. Consciousness have a big role in quantum physics because it says things exist only when we observe or measure it. A very direct reference to conscious ness
Mathews wrote: "Consciousness have a big role in quantum physics because it says things exist only when we observe or measure it. A very direct reference to conscious ness ..."You mean like the Observer Effect and things like that?
It has got to do with the dual property of particles. It exist as waves till somebody observe it. When you observe the wave function breaks and particle function throws up. Quantum physics is amazing.
It has got to do with the dual property of particles. It exist as waves till somebody observe it. When you observe the wave function breaks and particle function throws up. Quantum physics is amazing.
Mathews wrote: "It has got to do with the dual property of particles. It exist as waves till somebody observe it. When you observe the wave function breaks and particle function throws up. Quantum physics is amazing."Totally agree. Quantum physics rocks!
In our modern view of the world, religion and science have staked out separate domains. I have a hard time thinking of them as being compatible. Religion addresses the big questions that aren't anything science can measure. Science is all about finding the rules that govern the material world.The viewpoint that they are separate is comparatively modern. I think it didn't really start until the Enlightenment and didn't really dominate until the latter part of the 19th century.
Earlier and non-western societies didn't make that distinction. The Arabs did a lot with science during our medieval period. They believed they were studying the world to learn about God. In Egypt, science and religion were one and the same. Schwaller de Lubicz has a lot to say about that. Many languages don't even have a word for religion because they don't even have a concept of it being something that can be separated out.
Jim, very interesting. ..I'd like to read more on that! quantum physics is definitely one of the most interesting and fascinating fields of study. I wish I understood it better. I've only read two books: The Elegant Universe: superstrings, hidden dimensions and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory by Brian Greene and A Universe from Nothing, Why there is Something Rather than Nothing by Lawrence Krauss...yet, I'd have to read them 100 more times to comprehend what I read.
to me, quantum mechanics is the scientific way to explain how unexplainable things can happen without any type of god being involved at all.
Jim wrote: "In our modern view of the world, religion and science have staked out separate domains. I have a hard time thinking of them as being compatible. Religion addresses the big questions that aren't any..."Good points Jim.
The only religion which is somewhat compatible with science is Hinduism. Hindu scriptures have always told that this world is vibrations ( remember om ) which is what quantum physics also says. What Freud said about different levels of consciousness was already talked in detail in yoga sutras.
Mathews - I meant religion beyond organized religions. But I agree, of the mainstream religions Hinduism does have a lot of aspects that can gel with science.
But I think Judaism can too.
Lisa wrote: "to me, quantum mechanics is the scientific way to explain how unexplainable things can happen without any type of god being involved at all. ..."Most quantum physicists believe in God however.
I think sometimes we are defeated by language...We hear the word God and think of the Christian God...Or we hear religion and automatically thinking of organized religions, which is a very rare form of religion in the history of the Earth
James Morcan wrote: "Lisa wrote: "to me, quantum mechanics is the scientific way to explain how unexplainable things can happen without any type of god being involved at all. ..."Most quantum physicists believe in Go..."
Actually, I was thinking more of the "Einsteinian" god...in that sense, god is just something we say to explain something until we understand it.
I think this group poll here kinda dovetails in with this discussion thread: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...A number of members who are scientists commented in that poll they believe in a version of God.
And one wrote: "Best description would be that I believe in a Mathematical Entity, void of any mental abilities or identity. Completely non Anthropomorphic."
This was the definition of God I gave for that group poll: NB: This word doesn't just include the Christian deity or other religious versions but any concept of God such as non-religious "spiritual", New Age definitions or quantum physics/scientific theories of God
Lisa wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Actually, I was thinking more of the "Einsteinian" god...in that sense, god is just something we say to explain something until we understand it. ..."Don't agree that's what Einstein necessarily meant. It seems Einstein did see some kind of order or structure behind the Universe. Likewise with Tesla.
James Morcan wrote: "Lisa wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Actually, I was thinking more of the "Einsteinian" god...in that sense, god is just something we say to explain something until we understand it. ..."Don't agree..."
You are right...it wasn't necessarily what he meant, but it is what I take from it...I think most inspired individuals have their own personal definition of god...I'm just not sure I agree with labeling it "god"
The metaphor of the serpent is not incompatible with science as explained by Nigel Calder.“To create Adam from scratch ... would need to marshal all the energy of a 1,000-megaton explosion. Indeed (this) would require twice as much, in order to create an anti-Adam at the same time.”
The Torah was never meant to be translated. It's got nothing to do with the rest of world except through the second covenant, that of Hagar, which has yet to be implemented.
Imbeciles in Alexandria translated it on their own to make a fast buck.
The concept of the Supreme Being works like complementarity, if you do the translation correctly; there are two truths instead of one. The false masculine gender is strictly for use in Israel in the Hebrew language. Outside Israel for the Hagar covenant, She is the Goddess. No one in Israel ever said there was a god outside Israel except the imbeciles.
Nietzsche flashed the warning on that: "“It was subtle of god to learn Greek when he wished to become an author -- and not to learn it better.”
nice topic!James, do you have any data to support your following statement?:
"most quantum physicists definitely believe in a God (of some form) and an afterlife"
I feel the opposite should be true! i.e quantum physics is largely based on uncertainty principle and a probabilistic universe. Its unlikely that people who are very much into quantum mechanics to be also into a supreme being that is beyond the chaos of that quantum world. I guess.
H.A. wrote: "nice topic!James, do you have any data to support your following statement?:
"most quantum physicists definitely believe in a God (of some form) and an afterlife"
I feel the opposite should be t..."
Not sure there's been a survey of quantum physicists as to their beliefs but I haven't come across one who seems to discount the possibility of God or an Afterlife. It's just something I've observed according to the Q physicists I've read, at least.
I feel also we are often defeated or derailed by definitions. We hear "God" and we picture the (narrow) Christian definition of that word, or we hear religion and we immediately think of the big organized religions (which is maybe 1% of religion and a fairly modern phenomenon at that).
A belief in God/G-d could include a belief in a mathematical entity, void of any mental abilities or identity, for example. Completely non-anthropomorphic. I would wager most quantum physicists believe in something along those lines.
Dov wrote: "The metaphor of the serpent is not incompatible with science as explained by Nigel Calder.“To create Adam from scratch ... would need to marshal all the energy of a 1,000-megaton explosion. Indee..."
Can you clarify these statements, Dov?
How do you mean there is no God outside of Israel?
What is the Second Covenant of Hagar?
Also the "false masculine gender" means what?
Also, I wouldn't agree the vast spiritual beliefs of Egypt just relates to the Torah. Yes, the Egyptians took a lot from the Torah, especially later dynasties, but I think Egyptian faith and science is also a residue of older (possibly now forgotten) civilizations.
Likewise, I think the Torah is a residue of older (pagan) faiths. Had a Jew explain to me recently that the Star of David predates Judaism and the Torah, for example.
Oh and one more thing: I heard there is a Hebrew document, perhaps an obscure one, which presents the paradoxical riddle "there is no G-d/there is G-d" - are you aware of this text?
The complex spiritual faith system or religion of the Australian Aborigines is estimated to be about 50,000 years old. My (limited) understanding is they have beliefs the same, similar or the equivalent to God, the soul and the Afterlife. I did read one Australian quantum physicist who claimed the Aboriginal religion/spirituality contained many ideas that match quantum mechanics. Again, I don't fully or even remotely understand the Dreamtime (a white man's word for part of their sophisticated belief systems) but it's really interesting what they believed in.So I don't agree Judaism was the first to bring up the subjects of God, the afterlife and the soul. However, the Torah is certainly original within the Abrahamic faiths that came out of the Middle Eastern region.
Krishna wrote: "religion don't have an absolute idea.....it changes from person to person.And science is absolute. So can we compare these 2?"
What makes you think science is absolute, Krishna? :)
Pretty sure there was an Einstein quote, where he said something like "there are no absolutes" when referring to science.
James Morcan wrote: Not sure there's been a survey of quantum physicists as to their beliefs but I haven't come across one who seems to discount the possibility of God or an Afterlife. It's just something I've observed according to the Q physicists I've read, at least.
I agree that most Q physicists would have such answer but they should have the same answer if you tell them the possibility of fairy tail existence or basically anything! I read that according to quantum mechanics there is a possibility that someone might disappear spontaneously and reappear on Mars! However, that possibility is extremely low (i.e v v very low to be observed in such small number of population on earth). The point is that there is no zero possibility in quantum mechanics for any phenomenon.
I do agree with your later comments that if we don't take the narrow definition of Abrahamic God and if we take a broadly defined God or Entity then there might be a much higher possibility for its existence in this universe. Nevertheless, I think scientists should be careful here because I usually see people who have a very narrow definition of their God take these comments form those Q physicist as evidence that scientists support their specific ideology which is not quite true.
I know what you mean about quantum physicists not discounting any probability (like your obscure mars example). However, I think it's more than that when it comes to their general belief in God (in any form) and the existence Afterlife (of some kind). Indeed, a number of leading quantum physicists have written books about how quantum mechanics supports the existence of some kind of God and an Afterlife.Again though, this flies in the face of other scientists who are generally atheists or at least agnostics.
Some books that might be worth reading on this subject...most of these titles are written by quantum physicists or other scientists...The Ultimate Observer: Quantum Physics and God
God Is Not Dead: What Quantum Physics Tell Us about Our Origins and How We Should Live
God's Quantum Trilogy: Unifying Physics, Faith and Awareness
Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul
The Entangled God: Divine Relationality and Quantum Physics
Zeno's Theory: The Most Comprehensive and Plausible Unification Theory To-Date: Unifying Cosmology and Quantum Physics; Science and Religion.
The Story Of Quantum Physics: How Science Discovered God
Quantum Physics of God: Neuroscience of Souls, Spirits, Dreams, Prophecy, Near Death
In Search of God Quantum Physics
Edison's Very Rudimentary Explanation of Quantum Mechanics: Where Science and Spirituality Begin to Meet
Krishna wrote: "What is meant by 'God' here.......ancient alien theory? Or +ve energy?"You are God, for you are Krishna, the root of many a god!
Then again, you are also Sayori ;)
At first, Krishna appeared in the underground...then came Sayori, replacing Krishna...And then, Krishna returned seemingly destroying Sayori once and for all...
James Morcan wrote: "Dov wrote: "The metaphor of the serpent is not incompatible with science as explained by Nigel Calder.“To create Adam from scratch ... would need to marshal all the energy of a 1,000-megaton expl..."
I write books on this subject and I can't explain everything standing on one foot.
The Torah was a book of instructions and laws for the Jews in their country where they speak Hebrew. It has nothing to do with the rest of the world.
There was never any authorization for the Torah to be translated into Greek. That would have had to come from the government. They would never had done it but if they had they would have hired competent translators in conjunction with the Alexandria Library.
A bunch of imbeciles jumped in and translated the Torah to make a fast buck. They were barely literate in Greek. Here's what George Sarton, the science historian said, “The early part of the Septuagint, the Torah or Pentateuch, is written in a very poor Judeo-Greek; according to specialists that dialect is Egyptian rather than Palestinian. I have read only Genesis and was horrified by the language. How was this permitted to happen?"
You can repeat an error a zillion times and it is still an error. I went back to the original Hebrew and saw that the translation, due to the context, is Goddess. Israel has never said there is a god outside Israel. The imbeciles did. Metaphysics is the same as physics. Light is a wave. Light is a particle. You have to decide which.
This dovetails with the Hagar covenant which is for the whole world. They will set up their states according to the number of Jews living in Israel. That's a whole story in itself.
I didn't address the topic about borrowing from the Egyptians. Lots and lots.
Our people are originally from India. We are Hurrians, related to the Hittites. This guy. Phillip K. Hitti, says we still look like Hurrians. “The so-called Semitic features of the Jews are in reality Hittite-Hurrian.”
Hittite literature says the Hurrians called their high god "El Qone Aretz," which is the expression Avraham used in talking to the Hittites. Patricia Berlyn, an associate editor of Jewish Bible Quarterly, goes further and states that Sarah’s name is that of a Hurrian goddess. That's probably true.
The early Torah was probably written in proto-Sanskrit. "Noah" in Sanskit means "ship builder" and his name is related in that language to the roots of "nautical" and "navigator." The Jews are told to wear "tottaphot," singular "tottapha," as aide-memoires of their law on the forehead and a hand. They could never figure out the meaning of that word. It's the Sanskrit "tattava," which is the name of the little circles the Hindus wear on their foreheads.
The first part of it is moon goddess literature. That clan probably moved to Sumeria because that was a hotbed of moon goddess worship.
I don't know what the guy is talking about with his riddle. I'm not a mystic.
Dov wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Dov wrote: "The metaphor of the serpent is not incompatible with science as explained by Nigel Calder.“To create Adam from scratch ... would need to marshal all the energy of..."
Okay, thanks for these clarifications.
No, just opposite it. While science deals with the material world and the rules governing it, religion deals with the spiritual world and the laws governing the mind and behaviour
Tony, I don't agree with your statement. first of all, it's not that black and white, secondly, both science and religion have a tangible (physical) intangible (spiritual) aspects to them.
Lisa wrote: "Tony, I don't agree with your statement. first of all, it's not that black and white, secondly, both science and religion have a tangible (physical) intangible (spiritual) aspects to them."Don't agree then
Lisa wrote: "Tony, I don't agree with your statement. first of all, it's not that black and white, secondly, both science and religion have a tangible (physical) intangible (spiritual) aspects to them."Quite agree Lisa. I always get nervous when people trot out absolutes. Nothing is black and white despite what the "experts" may tell us.
The problem is that many people tend to view science as a belief system, scientism. I believe that's an incorrect view of science. I view science as a methodology for studying things, as described by Popper. Sadly, many in the scientific fields don't even know who Popper is and what the limitations of science are.
Jim wrote: "The problem is that many people tend to view science as a belief system, scientism. I believe that's an incorrect view of science. I view science as a methodology for studying things, as described ..."I so agree Jim. The thing is that when a scientist discovers something new, he is in awe as much as the next man and that state itself is spiritual. Science is about concentrating upon a problem until you come up with a viable solution that explains it as a phenomena or works, technically, chemically etc.
A church may be a building Lisa and be full of bodies but it fueled by belief. To religion, the material world is unimportant and is only a means to an end - enlightenment or getting free of entanglement in materialism (fear based greed, instead of courageous abandonment of all fear - the life of monks and nuns in service to God or the greater good, rather than the selfish, personal and short lived ego - humility (silence and stillness, to hear the inner voice of reason and see the truth of the world, lost in ceaseless motion and noise, 24/7). At least that is how I see it
Science deals with phenomena of the physical world and attempts to explain them through scientific hypotheses, which are then tested over and over again (by independent investigators) before they become theories. If an hypothesis cannot be sustained by repeated testing, it falls by the wayside. Only through repeated experiments with the same results does an hypothesis become a theory. Thus, a theory is supported by overwhelming physical evidence. To say that something is "just a theory" is to misunderstand the scientific method and process. A theory that stand the tests of time eventually becomes a scientific law (for example, force = mass times acceleration). Science uses physical evidence to explain the physical world. It is not a belief system.
Though I am agree with jim's opinion, still I feel sometimes that somewhere many religious laws and rules are based on scientific discoveries. There are so many definitions of religion varying from people to people but there is an ultimate thing that there is some supreme power in form of vibrations and energies which influence everything including mind, and science or any other field is the generation of the mind. Though I have no facts to share here but what it seems to me is that both science and religion are based on each other ultimately.
Agreed Sheetal.
Religion and Science contradict each other. I believe in evolution, not creationism. Anyone with brains agrees with evolution TO SOME DEGREE.
Jim wrote: "The problem is that many people tend to view science as a belief system, scientism. I believe that's an incorrect view of science. ..."Well said.
Capital-s Skeptics are believers in scientism or materialism and reject, a priori, anything that doesn't fit that paradigm.
Yup-Ignore facts. Keep your faith in denial, and you great grandchildren will pay the price. Good calls by James and Jim.
I think you mean is “God” compatible with science.But religion is compatible with science insofar as practitioners being employed scientists. Nothing in science would really change someone’s mind. They’d only not be religious because they don’t want to.
Underground Knowledge — A discussion group
Books mentioned in this topic
Religion and Science (other topics)Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul (other topics)
God's Quantum Trilogy: Unifying Physics, Faith and Awareness (other topics)
The Ultimate Observer: Quantum Physics and God (other topics)
God Is Not Dead: What Quantum Physics Tells Us about Our Origins and How We Should Live (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Albert Einstein (other topics)Dan Brown (other topics)
From what I've observed, most modern scientists would answer this question by saying science and religion do not mix and that there is likely to be no God or Afterlife.
However, most quantum physicists definitely believe in a God (of some form) and an afterlife...And I would say of all the sciences, quantum physics is by far the most suitable or likely to eventually crack this riddle given what it focuses on.
Anyway, here are two books to get the discussion rolling...
God and the New Physics
Author bio:
Paul Charles William Davies AM is a British-born physicist, writer and broadcaster, currently a professor at Arizona State University as well as the Director of BEYOND: Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science. He has held previous academic appointments at the University of Cambridge, University of London, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, University of Adelaide and Macquarie University. His research interests are in the fields of cosmology, quantum field theory, and astrobiology. In 2005, he took up the chair of the SETI: Post-Detection Science and Technology Taskgroup of the International Academy of Astronautics.
Mysticism and the New Physics