The Sword and Laser discussion
What exactly makes a YA book, anyway?
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Michele wrote: "As many of the now thousands of comments are pointing out - nobody knows anybody who is an adult that reads exclusively YA. I'm sure there are some, but really, why write about some tiny percentage..."There is NEVER anything shameworthy about reading Discworld! q;o)
John wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "On this I agree. You want censorship? That's the job of parenting, not the artist. Should Michelangelo have painted a less-revealing version of the Sistine Chapel to appease certain..."That was at least part of what inspired me to start this topic. I want to let my daughter read anything. Not because of any cultural or political reasons; I am just against censorship. However, we need shortcuts to know which books we need to take a first look at. I wouldn't expect sexy times in the same section where they have Dr Suess books, for example. (I know that example's hyperbolic)
Also, I can't remember if I'm dreaming this, but I think earlier in the thread someone shared a website where parents discuss this stuff which is a pretty good shorthand for reading the whole book. If it doesn't exist, it should. I know I try to mention when there is unexpected adult stuff in books I review - just as a head's up. Then it's the parents' or readers' choice (as the case may be) whether or not to pick it up.
My parents never interfered with what I read. They never read any of the same stuff as me, nor did they decide to "check" if a book I was interested in was "okay".Perhaps it is just a difference of environment, but that was never my upbringing. And it was fine. I discovered all the things I wanted to, in due time, in my own way.
I agree that censorship is a terrible thing. And that parenting is important. But rather than checking up on what kids are doing, I think what is more important is to have those discussions about the adult topics (and not just sex and violence, I mean all manner of complex concepts that are hard to understand as a kid). For this, one has to graduate from YA reading and enter the world of adults.
Kenneth,You're moving the goalposts. Earlier, you said it was the parents' responsibility to monitor what their kids are reading, not the writer's or the publishing industry's.
Now you're saying that parents shouldn't monitor it at all?
It's not an either/or scenario. Obviously, we're going to talk to our kids about violence, sexuality, etc.
That doesn't mean, to cite an extreme example, I'm going to talk to my daughter about sexuality and then let her watch pornography, or that I would talk to her about violence and then let her watch Game of Thrones.
That's because, even though we can explain these things to them, they're still often too young to contextualize these things in a healthy matter. Every civilized society on this planet understands the notion that there are things for children, and things that are not.
I'm sorry, this is going to sound condescending, but perhaps one day if you have children, you'll understand.
And if we go back to one of your original arguments that adults shouldn't be reading YA, you seem to have the ironic idea that kids should be able to read anything they want, but adults shouldn't...
Then let me clarify, as I don't think I've moved any goalpost. I may not have been clear, though. I think that it's not publishing or writers' responsibility to monitor content, nor is it parents'. I had meant that parents are responsible for 'the talk' and to instill values. But not censorship. At some point John, kids have to grow up. And while I would say some ages are probably too young for Game of Thrones, I'm not going to stop my kids from watching it if they choose to. Members of my family have arrived at maturity "before their age" and that has been mine and my wife's experience.
And you're twisting my words to suit your view. Kids and adults should be able to read anything they want. But adults who read YA should know it for what it is. Just as adults who read romance or SF or any genre understand the general themes that genre commonly includes, those who read YA should know what they're into. It seems that even bringing that topic up is cause for the alarm to sound and all hands to attack the messenger.
I don't see how that matters. Does one have to have experienced something first-hand to have an opinion on it? I very much doubt my views on parenting will change. Certainly not with regard to how I view the parenting of friends and family and approve/disapprove of their methods. I suppose it is just a difference of opinion due to different environment/worldview.
I sometimes appear condescending in my views and want to explain that I do not intend it.
Haha - trust me, man, having kids changes everything. Absolutely freaking everything.
Maybe it will. I don't know... yet.Married, but enjoying the duo for a while.
Kenneth - maybe your parenting philosophy will stay the same and maybe it will change but you'll definitely be a lot less certain about criticizing other people's approaches after going through it yourself. Kids are confounding creatures, they never react exactly the way you'd expect and each kids is very different. As a basic matter, it's unlikely that your kids will discover most of the culture they like on their own; you'll be introducing them to stuff and seeing what they like and don't like. Keeping aware of what they're reading is just part of that process. It's not (at least not in my house) about censorship.
Kenneth wrote: "But adults who read YA should know it for what it is. Just as adults who read romance or SF or any genre understand the general themes that genre commonly includes, those who read YA should know what they're into. It seems that even bringing that topic up is cause for the alarm to sound and all hands to attack the messenger."
I'm confused by what your argument is, Kenneth.
You posted a link to what you admit is snobby and patronizing article that stated adults should be embarrassed about reading YA. Under the link, you said "this article perfectly sums up my thoughts on YA, and why I become annoyed when adults gush about books from that genre."
Now you are saying that adults should merely be aware of what YA is, and that you feel attacked for voicing this opinion. That wasn't the view people were opposing.
On the subject of censorship and children, I agree with you to a point. I don't think it is greatly important to protect children from things they might read about - I read some books with content I wasn't really ready for as a young teen, and I don't think it was a problem.
On the other hand, when I was talking about books with my cousin she asked if a series I had read would be appropriate for her daughter. After hesitating I suggested it might be better to wait until she was a little older.
I guess it differs from family to family, and things will probably slip through the net without causing any harm, but I don't think it's a bad thing for a parent to want to be aware of what their children are reading, and what kind of content they might come across. Its a fine line, and for me I feel the more open 'read what you want' side of the line is the better one, but ultimately it is for the parent to decide.
Ruth, looking back, it seems I was too caught up in the very notion that someone who shared (most) of my views on YA even existed, I latched onto that as proof that I'm not alone in these unpopular views.Which are that reading it exclusively or putting it on the same pedestal as adult books is erroneous, and that people should acknowledge that it's a shallow escapist form of entertainment. One I am not interested in, but think it's fine for others to like, so long as they know it for what it is. That opinion appears to be lumped in with the more intentionally condescending attitude of the article.
Another topic on another group board was started about this, and I seem to have failed in conveying myself with clarity there. So I have left that discussion to go on without me. Didn't want to turn it into a fight over semantics and opinion when I had instead wanted to objectively discuss a fad/trend and its sociological reasons for being. I seem stuck expressing opinion instead, and hope I have done so with sufficient clarity this time.
Thanks for clearing that up, Kenneth. I think I understand you now. I'm currently studying English Literature at University, and have heard enough discussions about the intellectual merits of Harry Potter, for example, to appreciate where you are coming from. It can get a little tiresome at times, even though I adore those books.On a whole, I can't agree that putting YA books on the same pedestal as adult books is wrong, though, firstly because, other than books I have to read for my course, and even then in many cases, I consider all my fiction reading to be shallow escapism. Whether I am reading Crime and Punishment or A Series of Unfortunate Events, my primary reason for reading is to escape into another world, another mind, other experiences etc. I like to be able to lose myself. In this sense, all books are equal so long as I can enjoy them in this way. Secondly, I think the way in which literature can inspire thoughts and idea is personal. You might be right that, viewed objectively, adult novels deal with deeper, darker matters, but this doesn't mean a YA novel cannot have an equal effect on its readers.
As for this trends reasons for being, I find it hard comment, since it doesn't seem a new thing to me. My mum has always read widely, and never seemed to differentiate between books based on intellectual merit or target age. That people no longer judge you for browsing the kids section is just a bonus in my book.
Eric wrote: "Many of the authors that have been interviewed for Sword and Laser's author spotlights have indicated they'd like to try their hand at YA. But what does that really mean? Is it just a section to be shelved (virtually or otherwise) at the book store or library?"In short: Yes. If a publisher's marketing department decides that a book will sell best to the audience that likes YA, they will indicate that on the cover or spine somewhere, and bookstores and libraries will shelve/display it as such. If a reprinted book was written before the YA market was really a thing (around the mid-1970s) or before it was a dominant sector of the commercial publishing market (the last 10-15 years or so), but the publisher feels that it would do well in that market, the new cover or spine will indicate it as YA title and it will be shelved accordingly.
YA has a plotLiterary helps you sleep
Adult has sex and unnecessary violence
... okay Phil. YA is plot-centric. There's not much besides plot.
Literary is a term used by eyebrow-waving people.
Adult should not be construed as just sex and violence. It's what young adults should eventually grow up into. One hopes.
Phil wrote: "YA has a plotLiterary helps you sleep
Adult has sex and unnecessary violence"
As I mentioned when I started the thread, YA has sex. Sometimes even violent sex, including rape.
Hey guys, sorry for jumping in so late in the discussion. At the end of The Ocean at the End of the Lane, there is an interview with Neil Gaiman, in which he talks, among other topics, about the difference between writing for children and for adults. His words: "The conclusion I came to is that one of the keys to children's fiction for me is that you owe it to the world, you owe it to the kids, to give them hope."
I wonder if there's a bit of that in YA too.
Lidia wrote: "Hey guys, sorry for jumping in so late in the discussion. At the end of The Ocean at the End of the Lane, there is an interview with Neil Gaiman, in which he talks, among other topics, about the d..."
In my experience - usually, but not always.
Yeah, I think it is a running theme. For kids, I can agree with Neil. But in YA, maybe it shouldn't be a given. The world those readers are about to embark on is not a happily-ever-after world
Just came across this so I haven't had time to digest whether or not I agree, but it's pretty interesting to see Judy Blume's take on the debate that has evolved in this thread about knowing what your kids are reading:http://boingboing.net/2014/06/20/judy...
Rite of Passage by Alexei Panshin is better IMAO than the stuff called YA today. So is Citizen of the Galaxy by Robert Heinlein, though it is not as sexually explicit. It is like kids are supposed to be dumber today than 40 years ago.
Thought I would throw this out there as well. I was recently reminded of three of my favorite authors thoughts on a similar subject, and thought it relevant here. CS Lewis, Tolkein and Gaiman all think similarly on this, that there sort of isn't such thing as children's writing or YA writing to make it more relevant. You write what you are good at and if it fits in a genre, so be it. Lewis argued that you write what you like, as he did, and interestingly you find out that you never grow out of it.He is quoted as saying (a paraphrase) that once you grow up you grow out of the fear of childishness and the desperate need to grow up. And that he used to hide when he would read about fairies as young man, but at 50 years of age, read about them openly and proudly.
Amen.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
To Kill a Mockingbird (other topics)Treasure Island (other topics)
Dearly, Departed (other topics)
Zombies Vs. Unicorns (other topics)
Nation (other topics)
It's perfectly fine not to like a particular author or genre, but your remark is nothing but pure cynicism.