Austenesque Lovers TBR Pile Reading Challenge 2016 discussion
Assorted & Sundry Matters
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Group Read- March
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Wussock is explained early in the book as Yorkshire slang for basically what we might call a dweeb today. Or, more traditionally, a nincompoop. Lark ins is Knightley's estate manager. It can be so hard to check back in the book when reading electronically! Something I really hold against my Kindle.
Hi, Sophia, from Texas where I am only occasionally on the Web. (Week's vacation.) loved your review of this book and hope you are feeling better!
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Hope you're enjoying your visit. Thanks for popping in and reading my review. My bark rivals a harbor seal, but I'm getting back into the swim. :)
Debbie wrote: "I see a significant contrast between the opening scenes of the two books. In Emma, you quickly get a sense that both Emma and Mr. Woodhouse are pretty self-absorbed. Her thoughts, their discussio..."
Nice point out. I agree, that there was a significant difference throughout the whole book. It has been quite a few years since I read Emma, but I remember getting the sense that Mr. Knightley was a selfless person. George Knightley, Esquire: Charity Envieth Not being in his perspective changes the whole feel of the story.
I'm inching my way through both books (I confess I keep getting pleasantly distracted by other JAFF!), and I've just finished the section where Robert Martin has proposed to Harriet, and she declined. You know, reading through this slowly and carefully, I like Emma's character even less than the other times I've read Jane Austen's book. Don't know if you remember, but the deciding factor for Harriet deciding against Mr. Martin is when that snooty little bitch Emma tells her that, since Mr. Martin isn't in her social sphere, Emma won't be able to visit her, and she'd hate to lose Harriet's friendship. I was wishing I could reach into the pages of my kindle and smack her hard. I have great admiration for Mr. Knightley's restraint in NOT doing just that.
I will also point out that the whole episode of Emma painting Harriet's portrait (in Emma) gives emphasis to the excessive amount of flattery she receives from her father (who thinks she can walk on water), from Harriet (who doesn't know any better) and especially from Mr. Elton (who wants to marry her). The only one who gives her a true critique of her work is Mr. Knightley. In fact, painting is one of those pursuits that she picked up, got pretty good at, and then dropped altogether because Mr. Knightley gave an honest opinion about a portrait she was doing of his brother John. She really thrives on being told how perfect she is.Similarly, it's pointed out (in Emma) that all her good intentions to educate Harriet and improve her mind have long since gone by the wayside, as Mr. Knightley predicted. Instead of reading educational books, which was Mrs. Weston's hope, they only read a few chapters of a couple of those books together, and then, by Emma's direction, were onto more frivolous activities and never returned to them.
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No wonder Jane Austen expected no one would enjoy the story because she herself thought she'd created a heroine who was too unlikeable!The contrast in the Robert Martin/Harriet debacle is almost humorous in the two books. You have Emma in the one strongly influencing Harriet that Robert isn't good enough for her (because Emma continues to be convinced Harriet is the unacknowledged daughter of a gentleman), and at the same point in the other book, Mr. Knightley encouages Robert to propose, thinks it's a perfect match, and believes that Emma will be just as delighted as he is.
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Debbie wrote: "I'm inching my way through both books (I confess I keep getting pleasantly distracted by other JAFF!), and I've just finished the section where Robert Martin has proposed to Harriet, and she declin..."This is right around where I am, too, and it definitely made me like Emma less. Her intention to elevate Harriet by association and imagination is proof of self-centered she is. Harriet is higher because Emma wants it, and Robert Martin is low because Emma doesn't want him to be higher. She conveniently ignores the facts, and that's just irritating.
First Impression: I doubt I would have chosen this if not for the group read, since I hadn't even read Emma before this. I kept putting it off, because of the titular character. Even after reading it, I still probably wouldn't have bought it. There's nothing about it that would have grabbed me, but that's largely prejudice based on the original.
First Date: I could tell immediately upon starting it that I was going to enjoy it far more than Emma. Emma wasn't bad, per se, but my interest in it is largely intellectual. Charity Envieth Not is just straight up engrossing. I intended to only read a couple of pages to get a taste, and then I just kept going. I already liked George Knightley from the movies and the original, but getting this glimpse into his character is fascinating. I still don't think Emma deserves him, but I do appreciate her a bit better after glimpsing her from his perspective.
I'm moving forward in reading both books today. Just finished where Emma and Mr. Knightley are arguing about Frank Churchill's character - which is rather humorous in itself since neither one has ever met the man. But for those reading GKE: Charity Envieth Not ONLY, I think this passage from Emma is significant:"She then proceeded to say a great deal more than she felt, of the advantage of such an addition to their confined society in Surry; the pleasure of looking at somebody new; the gala-day to Highbury entire, which the sight of him would have made; and ending with reflections on the Churchills again, and finding herself directly involved in a disagreement with Mr. Knightley; and, to her great amusement, perceived that she was taking the other side of the question from her real opinion, and making use of Mrs. Weston's arguments against herself."
Emma had already had a similar conversation with Mrs. Weston but, at that time, Emma said basically the same things Mr. Knightley does in this discussion afterwards. So has she picked a fight with him just because that's their usual pattern? Or does she subconsciously want to make him jealous? Or is she kind of ticked off that he turned out to be right about Mr. Elton (who has proposed one or two chapters ago) and resentful, so she wants a chance to even the score?
Most interesting in going back and forth like this is that, as Eliza says, generally Emma comes across much more favorably in Charity Envieth Not than she does in Emma.
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Loved getting your first impressions of the book before you started and once you got going. I love this part about a group reading experience.
I found that I couldn't put it down once I got going, too.
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I didn't remember that Emma had the discussion with Mrs. Weston and then argued with Mr. Knightley. That does pose an interesting question. What were her motives for the argument? Maybe a little of all the things you bring up.
debbie are you referring to gke books or emma ? I'm trying to remember the fight they had in gke.
Both. It's when Frank Churchill's letter has been received by the Westons once again putting off his long overdue visit with them. In Charity Envieth Not, it's made clear Mr. Knightley's opinion of the man is very low. He thinks the Westons want to promote a match between him (Churchill) and Emma, and his ( Knightley's) impression (partially based on this argument, which appears in both books) is that she's predisposed to like him (Churchill).
Chapter 16 in GKE. Chapter 18 in Emma.
I think there are a lot of reasons that Emma picks fights with Mr. Knightley. My opinion is that Mr. Knightley is a man that Emma admires, and he is continually challenging her to be better than she is. It is easier to pick a fight with someone than admit you are wrong, or that you have disappointed them. As to what Mr. Knightley sees in Emma? I have often wondered that. I think he sees the person she has the potential of being, and remains constant and hopeful that she will one day become that person.
Ahnya wrote: "I think there are a lot of reasons that Emma picks fights with Mr. Knightley. My opinion is that Mr. Knightley is a man that Emma admires, and he is continually challenging her to be better than sh..."Good points, Ahnya. Makes sense.
I've got to say, going through GKE, that I think my favorite added "character" is Madam Duval. It's just another proof of how good this author is that the cat has a distinct personality! Love that Mr. Knightley is the only person she allows near her, and he can't get her to stay away from him. It's such a nice little element sprinkled in, and every scene she appears in malkes me smile.
Did a lot of reading today. I'm 92% into GKE and 48% into Emma. I know GKE is a 2-parter, so I'm assuming the last 8% of this book isn't going to take me all the way through Emma's plot. I'll just have to pick up GKE: Lend Me Leave when I finish!Another interesting contrast note: As much as Mr. Knightley dislikes and distrusts Frank Churchill without a lot of solid reason for doing so, Emma greatly dislikes Jane Fairfax with even less cause. It's obvious that she doesn't enjoy sharing the spotlight, and Miss Fairfax is a more accomplished singer and performer on the pianoforte than Emma. The only real "complaint" she has is that Miss Fairfax is very reserved.
The last time I read Emma (I've read it about 3 times, but probably a decade apart each reading), I didn't remember the specifics about Frank Churchill. Gotta say, since I read it only a few months ago and I know exactly where that storyline is headed, I really, really hate the guy. What a phony! Once again, Mr. Knightley is right on target to feel something is "off" about him, even though a lot of his feelings are fueled by jealousy.
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And yes, Emma sure does have a bugaboo about Jane Fairfax. I think she sees the differences between being told she is accomplished and knowing that Jane really is. I've always wondered about Jane Fairfax's motivations to accept Frank and to accept the secret engagement. Did she accept Frank and tolerate his shenanigans b/c she didn't have other prospects or did she really love him?
im currently reading lend me leave book and im liking his thoughts on mrs elton. the interactions between him and his brother is fun too :)
im also not understanding her dislike of jane fairfax in this series. then again it is from mr. knightleys pov so he wouldnt know much.
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Yes, those are both things I look forward to in book two. Glad it's going well, Trish.
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In Emma, the dislike of Jane Fairfax is more evident probably because its from Emma's POV plus there is mention in GKE Charity Envieth Not that Mr. Knightley wants Emma to like Jane because she is superior to Harriet in the sense that she wouldn't just be a 'yes' woman to Emma, but Emma claims to not be able to get through Jane's reserve and gives up.
Just started GKE Lend me Leave. Mr. Knightley just met the new Mrs. Elton. @ Debbie - Totally agree with you on Madame Duvall. I am a cat lover myself with my own strange feline, and think they do have distinct personalities. So, I love cats with attitude in books i read.
@ Sophia - I was just rereading your excellent review, and I also remember your post here commenting that you think Mr. Knightley's dislike for Frank Churchill even before he arrives is too severe. Might be a good point for discussion. I don't find it as unreasonable as you do. He is close to the Westons, and it's downright rude that Mr. Weston's son has avoided visiting for so long. Propriety would demand a visit soon after his father's wedding to meet his stepmother. It just doesn't seem plausible that the Churchills would prevent him from EVER seeing his father. Mr. Knightley feels the snub for his friends, and his sees the smooth talking excuses in Frank's letters as just a lot of hogwash. He doesn't know the exact nature of what he might be hiding, of course, and so he projects a certain view of the man based on conjecture. It doesn't help that he sees Emma is perhaps too enthusiastic about meeting him, which just increases Mr. Knightley's prejudice against him.
What does anybody else think?
Ahnya wrote: "Just started GKE Lend me Leave. Mr. Knightley just met the new Mrs. Elton. @ Debbie - Totally agree with you on Madame Duvall. I am a cat lover myself with my own strange, and think they do have ..."
Me too regarding Madame Duvall! Only thing Jane Austen lacks...cats! (perhaps she was so cat like that she didn't want the competition) Poor Fanny Price sure could have used a cat.
Debbie wrote: "@ Sophia - I was just rereading your excellent review, and I also remember your post here commenting that you think Mr. Knightley's dislike for Frank Churchill even before he arrives is too severe...."I really don't like Frank and never understood why Emma was so willing to overlook his slight to Mrs Weston by taking so long to visit. Considering not only her love of Mrs Weston but her strong sense of duty to family, I find it very surprising.
While Knightley's initial dislike of Frank seems at least partially (if not mostly) based on jealousy, he was pretty correct on his characterization. To me he does come off a bit severe since he had never met Frank but he had some good justification for his initial dislike that Emma should have at least contemplated.
I like Knightley's rant about envying Frank before he confesses his feelings to Emma at the end. I do not understand why everyone (especially Jane) is so quick to forgive Frank in the end. He behaves very poorly yet still manages to get everything he wants with little to no consequences. Knightley does a good job of voicing my frustrations as a reader.
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It's not that I thought he was wrong about Frank. No, I thought he was spot on and the slight to his friends is actually a huge breach of manners back then (did some research on 'calling' etiquette) so he had cause to think poorly of Frank. And because it was a huge breach of manners and insult to the Westons, this is why Knightley was shocked that Emma wasn't upset for her friends' sake, too. With that, I don't think he was too severe when he started forming a negative opinion of Frank.
When I said too severe, I was referring to his reaction being consistent with how the author had written him (and this is all my own perception and perfectly all right if others see him differently). Knightley has been interacting with a large cast of people in the pages preceding the advent of Frank allowing me to get to know him in all walks of life. Many characters are introduced and interacted with as a result. Some of them were in error and some full on folly. He noticed, showed some concern, but didn't dwell on that person (with the exception of Emma's meddling and rightly so).
I know the author is foreshadowing so that the reader understands before Mr. Knightley that he is emotionally attached to Emma and perceives this unknown Frank as a threat, but it seems inconsistent that he would feel the threat so severely before Frank is much more than a distant possibility. I like that she did it, but I felt she brought the depth of it on too soon and it just felt odd to me and distracted me from the story.
But, maybe that's the point of the author's choice. Suddenly he is out of his comfort zone, out of his norm, and now has his own blind spot like Emma to make them more equal in the romance development.
I guess it is part of how the reader perceives this author's Knightley in their head. And doesn't that just sound a bit crazy. LOL The Knightley in my head...
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and the Knightley in your heads, too. ;)
Nice discussion, ladies! I had no idea a group read would be so fun and insightful.
I agree with you Sophia, but I also think it's an intentional parallel the author is making to Emma's attitude about Jane - She gets tired of hearing all these glowing compliments about her every time a letter arrives from her. I think the same thing is happening to Mr. Knightley when the Westons get a letter from Frank and he sees how interested Emma is in meeting him. Again, he hasn't figured out yet that his uneasy feeling about Frank is actually jealousy, but just decides that he is bad news. Emma's attitude is actually more unreasonable, because there isn't any cause for her to dislike Jane.
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Totally agree that Emma's thing over Jane was very different and came from a different source of worry.
Debbie wrote: "I didn't remember the specifics about Frank Churchill. Gotta say, since I read it only a few months ago and I know exactly where that storyline is headed, I really, really hate the guy. What a phony!"Yes, this.
I never really thought to compare Knightley's viewpoint on Frank with Emma's viewpoint on Jane, but I suppose there is a bit of a parallel. I actually liked how CEK uses Knightley's disproportionate dislike of the man to highlight his unknowing attraction to Emma. It was hard for me to see the build-up between the two of them in the original, so I appreciated getting some behind-the-scenes depth.
Emma's dislike of Jane is just irritating no matter how you slice it, and added to her attitude toward Robert Martin, it's the reason I really don't like her much for the first half of the story. Though, really, her dislike is also borne out of jealousy--it's just selfish jealousy of Jane herself.
Mod
From what I can tell, folks seem to be cruising toward the end of book one and many are into book two. Let's do another discussion check in (again, this is voluntary)
Second Date: Now that you've had a chance to interact with the story and characters. Do you have a favorite secondary character? Favorite scene? I've seen that Madame Duvall has rec'd a few votes already. LOL
A few of us have touched on this already, but I'll pose it to the rest: Has getting the story from George Knightley's POV altered your opinion of any of the other characters or scenes?
And for those beginning book two:
First Date thoughts- Is the story transition between books seamless or does it have a different feel?
Was anything new introduced or is it continuing with the previous books' plot thread?
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And I will add my vote to finding Mr. Knightley's growing friendship with Madame Duvall fun times.
Sophia wrote: "Group Read Check-In Two From what I can tell, folks seem to be cruising toward the end of book one and many are into book two. Let's do another discussion check in (again, this is voluntary)
Sec..."
*******SPOILER********
I love Dr Hughes and Curate Spencer as secondary characters. Also, the letters between brothers Knightley.
*********Spoiler********
I hate hate the ending of Part 1 when Knightley announces an active plan to steal away Emma's heart. I wrote blog post regarding the Emma/Knightley relationship....especially praising Knightley for lack of an active plan regarding Emma...even after he realizes that he is in love with Emma. I certainly didn't remember that element from the first time I read this book...last year!
My SECOND DATE Answers -Favorite secondary character: Favorite is definitely Mr. Spencer. I find him (and Dr. Hughes - I agree with Kirk!) to be a refreshing contrast to Mr. Elton, as Mr. Spencer demonstrates what a curate or pastor or vicar SHOULD be like. And I do like the parallel frustrated romance between him and Mrs. Catherwood.
Favorite scene: All of them where Mr. Knightley is talking to Madam Duval and spilling his guts, which occur with even more frequency in Lend Me Leave. I understand that it's a literary device of the author's to give us more insight into his thoughts, but it also emphasizes that, as involved as he is in so many others' lives, he actually is alone a lot and more lonely than he believes.
Alteration of my opinion: I don't know about ALTERING my opinion, but the scenes where Frank and Emma are flirting back and forth struck me differently. Some of that, as I mentioned earlier, is because this time I was reading with the knowledge that Frank was using her as a blind to mask his relationship with Jane. But it was mostly reading the same scenes from Mr. Knightley's perspective that made me appreciate how painful it was for him to have to witness the two of them like that. It just made me dislike Frank Churchill that much more.
BOOK TWO -
Seamless Transition: The writing style is seamless, in my opinion. Well, probably Kirk doesn't like that Lend Me Leave has a stronger focus on Mr. Knightley's preoccupation with Emma, but that's because he IS more preoccupied with her now that he's realized he loves her. However, it seems he is hopeless most of the time rather than plotting. Aside from that, it feels like continuation of the same book. No seams.
New Plotlines: All of the storylines from Charity Envieth Not progress and resolve. I'm not certain, but I believe the petty theft storyline had been introduced in the first book - if not, then that's new. Again, it links perfectly with the break-in of Mrs. Weston's poultry-house at the end of Jane Austen's Emma that motivates Mr. Woodhouse to finally be reconciled to Emma's wedding date so Mr. Knightley would be in residence with them and serve as more protection from a break-in there.
I have to comment on the really, REALLY large number of pairings and imagined pairings that occur in Emma/Charity Envieth Not/Lend Me Leave. Add them all up, and there are at least 13 !! (I may have missed some) My list has only Mrs. Catherwood and Mr. Spencer as add-ons in the Mr. Knightley Esquire series. All the others are straight from Emma's plot. Check it out: Mr. John Knightley and Miss Isabella Woodhouse/Mrs. Knightley (actual)
Mr. Weston and Miss Taylor/Mrs. Weston (actual)
Mr. Elton and Harriet (imagined by Emma)
Mr. Elton and Emma (imagined by Mr. Elton)
Mr. Elton and Miss Hawkins/Mrs. Elton (actual)
Frank Churchill and Emma (imagined by Mr. Knightley and others)
Frank Churchill and Harriet (imagined by Emma)
Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax (actual)
Mr. Knightley and Harriet (imagined by Harriet)
Mr. Knightley and Emma (actual)
Mr. Martin and Harriet (actual)
Mrs. Catherwood and Mr. Perkins (imagined by Mr. Spencer)
Mrs. Catherwood and Mr. Spencer (actual)
Debbie wrote: "My SECOND DATE Answers -Favorite secondary character: Favorite is definitely Mr. Spencer. I find him (and Dr. Hughes - I agree with Kirk!) to be a refreshing contrast to Mr. Elton and demonstrate..."
Hmmmm....hopeless is way way better than plotting! :)
Debbie wrote: "I have to comment on the really, REALLY large number of pairings and imagined pairings that occur in Emma/Charity Envieth Not/Lend Me Leave. Add them all up, and there are at least 13 !! (I may hav..."Wow!
Oh, I just thought of yet another imagined pairing! Mr. Knightley and Jane Fairfax (imagined by Emma)
So the count now is up to 14. Are there any others that I missed?
Mod
I didn't do a 1st check in post because I read the book last summer, and I don't remember my first impressions.I will do a second check in.
I love the letters between the Knightley brothers. I have only read a couple chapters of book 2, but I hope that continues.
There are a couple of scenes in book 1 that I remember loving, but I don't want to give any spoilers to those who haven't finished.
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From what I can tell, folks seem to be cruising toward the end of book one and many are into book two. Let's do another discussion check in (again, this is ..."
I wasn't to keen on the new 'plan' either. Guess I'll see how it goes in book two.
Goodreads ate my big, long comment on this thread }:-( I will try again tomorrow!
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Oh no! :( Hate it when that happens. And it was a brilliant comment, right? :)
Sophia wrote "Oh no! :( Hate it when that happens. And it was a brilliant comment, right? :)"Yes, it was dazzling with wit and insight, and I won't manage such a good one again!
Austenesque Lovers TBR Pile Reading Challenge 2016
Books mentioned in this topic
Lend Me Leave (other topics)Emma (other topics)
Charity Envieth Not (other topics)
Charity Envieth Not (other topics)
Emma (other topics)
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Larkins is Mr. Knightley's estate steward. He supervises and manages around the estate.