Mortal Instruments & Infernal Devices Lovers! discussion
The Mortal Instruments
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Clabastian vs Clace
But the most glaring question in my mind is: Would Sebastian actually learn to love?If he is able to learn to love, then my whole world has been turned upside down a bit, and I maybe need to reconsider my ships. However, I agree that Clabastian would be quite interesting...
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "Clabastian.
Because not only would Clary actually develop depth, Sebastian could actually learn to love and build on a foundation of trust. He would learn all the emotions that Valentine so carele..."
Its strange to find someone who agrees. But yes, basically what i’ve been saying it just might be in a darker way but the stereotypical good guys and goodness is a bit overrated in books.
I would say Sebastian knows how to care about someone he just does it differently and its not in a way that Clary can comprehend , she doesnt even want to accept that hes capable of it.
Because not only would Clary actually develop depth, Sebastian could actually learn to love and build on a foundation of trust. He would learn all the emotions that Valentine so carele..."
Its strange to find someone who agrees. But yes, basically what i’ve been saying it just might be in a darker way but the stereotypical good guys and goodness is a bit overrated in books.
I would say Sebastian knows how to care about someone he just does it differently and its not in a way that Clary can comprehend , she doesnt even want to accept that hes capable of it.
DoodlePoodle0210 wrote: "But the most glaring question in my mind is: Would Sebastian actually learn to love?
If he is able to learn to love, then my whole world has been turned upside down a bit, and I maybe need to recon..."
He actually already knows how , obviously, if you pay attention.
And its funny how youre saying you would have to reconsider your ships lol like the my whole belief system about the book was a lie!
If he is able to learn to love, then my whole world has been turned upside down a bit, and I maybe need to recon..."
He actually already knows how , obviously, if you pay attention.
And its funny how youre saying you would have to reconsider your ships lol like the my whole belief system about the book was a lie!
I never hated Sebastian, in spite of everything. He didn't have control over what Valentine made him. I just finished TMI and felt bad about what MIGHT have been.He could have learned, if given the chance.
It's those last few moments with Sebastian/Jonathan as he was dying that just tore out my heart:It's just that question of what could have been...
Wise Cat wrote: "I never hated Sebastian, in spite of everything. He didn't have control over what Valentine made him. I just finished TMI and felt bad about what MIGHT have been.
He could have learned, if given t..."
Saying that you loved his character then saying something like “if he had been different” is equal to Jocelyn’s bs excuses , if you liked what could have been (which is a completely different character) more than what he was, youre basically as bad as Jocelyn.
Jocelyn wanted the idea of a son , one that was what she wanted and loved , instead of her actual son . She is a horrible human being , one who actually wantsd to kill her baby because he didnt turn out the way she wanted , you don’t get much worse than that.
Sebastian wasn’t a terrible character , the demon blood had nothing to do with it, and at times even Valentine’s treatment of him wasn’t what led him to make certain decisions.
You know what was? His family. Jocelyn repeatedly rejected him, called him incapable of love or human emotion, said he was not her family and that she just wanted to take her daughter and leave (didn’t claim him as her own but as a separate entity. He rejected her because she rejected him and treated him as a monster, a thing that she didn’t want and said she was sorry she hadn’t killed him) also he had heard that his mother abandoned him , etc. Constantly told by Valentine that he was a soldier, a monster, that no one could ever love him , etc. Didn’t love his own son and loved some adopted random kid who was actually an asshole and an egotistical self serving , unrealistic mess over his own biological son who he abused. And then we have Clary , the “cherry on top” to this situation who , after seeing him do some things which granted were meant to be evil , on Valentine’s orders, apparently hates him for it later and ends up resenting and thinking him incapable of human emotion , is attracted to him yet rejects him because the author felt the need to put in the laughably hypocritical line at that point “it felt wrong” not to mention how she repeatedly pretends to be on his side or give him a chance later even after he explains himself and she says she’ll give him a chance , she never does and treats him like some war enemy , then when he drops all his plans and decides to spare the world on the condition that he gets to have Clary (just one family member he wants to and trusts to be by his side) he spares her mother’s life (a woman he hates and rejects as his mother because she rejected him, who he could and would have probably easily killed or dismissed had it not been for Clary)
Comments on how Clary killed Valentine (despite hating Valentine , he still loved him and wanted his approval, he acts as though he’s proud of Clary but he’s more surprised i think, seems like he just wanted some common ground with her so that they can relate to and understand each other and thinks that Clary killing Valentine was a good way to do that) Sebastian, despite having every opportunity , never killed or tried to kill Valentine , although if he had tried to hurt Clary, Sebastian might have done one or both.
And to end it all he , even though he wanted to watch the world burn to ashes for how he felt towards it and his resentment of them all , gave it all up and gave everyone the chance to live without being turned into endarkened because of Clary . Yet everyone is blinded to this fact. He did learn to love someone , he always had feelings just not ones that most or any of them could understand , not even his own family. And then what does the only family member he trusted do ? Asks him to put his arms around her before she kisses him only to stab him in the back with a sword by her own hand.
Sebastian is not the villain in this story , it’s Jocelyn, Valentine, and Clary , they may have all been somewhat interesting and at times had reasons for what they did or loved someone , but in the end they all had a part in why Sebastian was the way that he was and why he despised them and couldn’t trust them , they were terrible people , or at least they were a terrible mother, father, and sister to him , he deserved a lot better .
Truthfully it makes things more interesting when a character suffers or is faced with these kinds of odds but in this case most people don’t even acknowledge it.
He could have learned, if given t..."
Saying that you loved his character then saying something like “if he had been different” is equal to Jocelyn’s bs excuses , if you liked what could have been (which is a completely different character) more than what he was, youre basically as bad as Jocelyn.
Jocelyn wanted the idea of a son , one that was what she wanted and loved , instead of her actual son . She is a horrible human being , one who actually wantsd to kill her baby because he didnt turn out the way she wanted , you don’t get much worse than that.
Sebastian wasn’t a terrible character , the demon blood had nothing to do with it, and at times even Valentine’s treatment of him wasn’t what led him to make certain decisions.
You know what was? His family. Jocelyn repeatedly rejected him, called him incapable of love or human emotion, said he was not her family and that she just wanted to take her daughter and leave (didn’t claim him as her own but as a separate entity. He rejected her because she rejected him and treated him as a monster, a thing that she didn’t want and said she was sorry she hadn’t killed him) also he had heard that his mother abandoned him , etc. Constantly told by Valentine that he was a soldier, a monster, that no one could ever love him , etc. Didn’t love his own son and loved some adopted random kid who was actually an asshole and an egotistical self serving , unrealistic mess over his own biological son who he abused. And then we have Clary , the “cherry on top” to this situation who , after seeing him do some things which granted were meant to be evil , on Valentine’s orders, apparently hates him for it later and ends up resenting and thinking him incapable of human emotion , is attracted to him yet rejects him because the author felt the need to put in the laughably hypocritical line at that point “it felt wrong” not to mention how she repeatedly pretends to be on his side or give him a chance later even after he explains himself and she says she’ll give him a chance , she never does and treats him like some war enemy , then when he drops all his plans and decides to spare the world on the condition that he gets to have Clary (just one family member he wants to and trusts to be by his side) he spares her mother’s life (a woman he hates and rejects as his mother because she rejected him, who he could and would have probably easily killed or dismissed had it not been for Clary)
Comments on how Clary killed Valentine (despite hating Valentine , he still loved him and wanted his approval, he acts as though he’s proud of Clary but he’s more surprised i think, seems like he just wanted some common ground with her so that they can relate to and understand each other and thinks that Clary killing Valentine was a good way to do that) Sebastian, despite having every opportunity , never killed or tried to kill Valentine , although if he had tried to hurt Clary, Sebastian might have done one or both.
And to end it all he , even though he wanted to watch the world burn to ashes for how he felt towards it and his resentment of them all , gave it all up and gave everyone the chance to live without being turned into endarkened because of Clary . Yet everyone is blinded to this fact. He did learn to love someone , he always had feelings just not ones that most or any of them could understand , not even his own family. And then what does the only family member he trusted do ? Asks him to put his arms around her before she kisses him only to stab him in the back with a sword by her own hand.
Sebastian is not the villain in this story , it’s Jocelyn, Valentine, and Clary , they may have all been somewhat interesting and at times had reasons for what they did or loved someone , but in the end they all had a part in why Sebastian was the way that he was and why he despised them and couldn’t trust them , they were terrible people , or at least they were a terrible mother, father, and sister to him , he deserved a lot better .
Truthfully it makes things more interesting when a character suffers or is faced with these kinds of odds but in this case most people don’t even acknowledge it.
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "You make a pretty valid point"
Just thought i would put that out there . Because everyone seems to see things from one viewpoint and no other. Never the big picture.
Just thought i would put that out there . Because everyone seems to see things from one viewpoint and no other. Never the big picture.
CLACE, sebastian is her brother!!! yuck
Noooooo!!!!!! Don't say that. Dammit!! Where is Atty when you need her?
so you actually like clabastian? ew
It's complicated. I have someone who can explain it to you.Atty!!! Atty!!!! Atty Dollanganger!!!! Come out!
But I'll explain a short version before she comes. In shirt Clary would have a lot of character development. Wait no, actual character development. Jace would realise he can't have every girl in the world. Sebastian would learn to love. It would be the biggest plot twist of the century. But I understand why it didn't work out. Cassandra Clare wouldn't have the slightest shit what to write about anymore in terms of advancing the romantic plot. It would be really great. It would let us see a new light, give us a different perspective and all that.
Just listen to Attys opinion. It is well thought out and cleverly written and stated. It's an amazing review. She makes valid pints others seem to miss, it's refreshing.
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "It's complicated. I have someone who can explain it to you.
Atty!!! Atty!!!! Atty Dollanganger!!!! Come out!"
I just saw this , started laughing . I don’t think i’m going to give her the full description unless she wants it because i don’t want to waste my time if she’s stuck with that mentality but i’ll respond .
Atty!!! Atty!!!! Atty Dollanganger!!!! Come out!"
I just saw this , started laughing . I don’t think i’m going to give her the full description unless she wants it because i don’t want to waste my time if she’s stuck with that mentality but i’ll respond .
Isla wrote: "CLACE, sebastian is her brother!!! yuck"
Yes he is her brother , and for a time the fandom thought that Jace was her brother and still shipped it , they can pretend they knew all along but until cassandra released the next book no one knew for sure. (This isn’t the argument Bridget is referring to but i’ll elaborate on it if you want.)
It’s not gross at all, if you feel that way then fine it is the modern mentality of society but it was not thought of as taboo or disgusting for the most part until the 19th or 20th century, and even now its ironic that people are disgusted by it considering the genetic relation of europeans to each other. Most seem to be uneducated in human history.
Yes he is her brother , and for a time the fandom thought that Jace was her brother and still shipped it , they can pretend they knew all along but until cassandra released the next book no one knew for sure. (This isn’t the argument Bridget is referring to but i’ll elaborate on it if you want.)
It’s not gross at all, if you feel that way then fine it is the modern mentality of society but it was not thought of as taboo or disgusting for the most part until the 19th or 20th century, and even now its ironic that people are disgusted by it considering the genetic relation of europeans to each other. Most seem to be uneducated in human history.
omg, you explain it so well. now im not disgusted at all. i forgot jace and clary were siblings too, thank you!!!
bridget you were right. atty can explain it perfectly
I mean they weren’t really siblings , and the angel blood making them related is debatable etc. But i was just pointing out one way that the fandom is hypocritical.
all this talk about sebastian makes me sad. i really miss him.
damn, i really sounded like a clingy girlfriend there.. lol
Notice how when Clary killed him she felt zero emotion. So is humanity another character flaw CC seemed to take away from Clary to make her seem as the embodiment of women. It angered me so much.I really liked Sebastian, so damn much. I miss him.
But then again fanfiction fills part of that hole.
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "Notice how when Clary killed him she felt zero emotion. So is humanity another character flaw CC seemed to take away from Clary to make her seem as the embodiment of women. It angered me so much.
I..."
Goes to show anyone can be “inhuman” demon blood or not.
My favorite characters are always alive to me but i can accept the ending to cassandra clare’s story i just don’t particularly enjoy it at times but im kind of fine with how it all ended. (Well, not all but i accept it in some form lol in other ways, i always think of the other possibilities and keep them alive.)
Also , watch this short clip of dean from Supernatural if you have time , its almost scary how similar the character seems to the personality types in Cassandra Clare’s book , specifically a little bit of jace but mostly Sebastian.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn0sc0B...
I..."
Goes to show anyone can be “inhuman” demon blood or not.
My favorite characters are always alive to me but i can accept the ending to cassandra clare’s story i just don’t particularly enjoy it at times but im kind of fine with how it all ended. (Well, not all but i accept it in some form lol in other ways, i always think of the other possibilities and keep them alive.)
Also , watch this short clip of dean from Supernatural if you have time , its almost scary how similar the character seems to the personality types in Cassandra Clare’s book , specifically a little bit of jace but mostly Sebastian.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn0sc0B...
Atty wrote: "Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "Notice how when Clary killed him she felt zero emotion. So is humanity another character flaw CC seemed to take away from Clary to make her seem as the embodiment of ..."
Minus some parts since Sebastian does want a lot of things compared to “dead inside” dean lol
Minus some parts since Sebastian does want a lot of things compared to “dead inside” dean lol
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "True"
By the way , did you ever catch the subtext and tension in the scenes between clary and sebastian? Eventually i thought the author probably deliberately did it but couldnt blatantly state it. I saved all of those scenes with my analysis of them.
By the way , did you ever catch the subtext and tension in the scenes between clary and sebastian? Eventually i thought the author probably deliberately did it but couldnt blatantly state it. I saved all of those scenes with my analysis of them.
That's another reason why i voted Clabastian over Clace. There was always something there but people were either unwilling and ignorant to acknowledge or they just didn't see it.I'm glad you saved it. Now you can tell haters to back off and quote why 😂
i actually vote clabastian now, thanks to our Atty
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "That's another reason why i voted Clabastian over Clace. There was always something there but people were either unwilling and ignorant to acknowledge or they just didn't see it.
I'm glad you saved..."
Oh ok. Yeah im not surprised i knew that was probably the reason they denied it.
Yeah basically, book proof is written in stone! Lol
I'm glad you saved..."
Oh ok. Yeah im not surprised i knew that was probably the reason they denied it.
Yeah basically, book proof is written in stone! Lol
Isla_Herondale wrote: "i actually vote clabastian now, thanks to our Atty"
You don’t have to if you don’t want i just have a problem with people overreacting. Truthfully i like it in a way when a ship is rare it makes it more special and i like to keep it to myself Lol but if you really like the ship then you go ahead and ship it too :)
You don’t have to if you don’t want i just have a problem with people overreacting. Truthfully i like it in a way when a ship is rare it makes it more special and i like to keep it to myself Lol but if you really like the ship then you go ahead and ship it too :)
Isla_Herondale wrote: "i do like the ship :)"
Alright then . Unsurprisingly , after the show came out , a lot more people liked it or admitted it lol
Alright then . Unsurprisingly , after the show came out , a lot more people liked it or admitted it lol
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "Ugh. The show!!!!! 😣"
Yeah i know.
Yeah i know.
Isla_Herondale wrote: "i havent watched it"
Me neither but i have seen clips lol
Me neither but i have seen clips lol
I did and it is horrible gruesome. They got the characters wrong. And now people are shipping Malec for the wrong reasons
Lula wrote: "I tried watching the first episode but it was different enough that I didn’t really want to continue."
The acting was bad enough at times and the dialogue was terrible, so bad it was laughable.
The acting was bad enough at times and the dialogue was terrible, so bad it was laughable.
And when they introduced Alec. It took all my willpower not to throw the book at the TV.
i haven't watched it, could you tell me what's bad about it so you put me off? I really don't want to watch it but I probably will if I don't know how bad it is.
I advice if you love the book never watch the movie.
Movie indeed different from the book. And for us as we fell in love with book we will be disappointed with the movie. Btw we can't blame movie makers either cause they need to survive.
Or watch the movie not expecting to see the book through it. I mean think of the movie as a different version.
Bridget Lightwood-Bane wrote: "So...always then?"
Ok yeah pretty much , but i mean some parts were somewhat decently acted i guess . But i mean...... really, on such a sub par scale when i say decent i mean it was ok , it wasn’t bad or as terrible as the rest. They acted like genuine teenagers at times , so yeah some decent acting.
Ok yeah pretty much , but i mean some parts were somewhat decently acted i guess . But i mean...... really, on such a sub par scale when i say decent i mean it was ok , it wasn’t bad or as terrible as the rest. They acted like genuine teenagers at times , so yeah some decent acting.
Isla_Herondale wrote: "i haven't watched it, could you tell me what's bad about it so you put me off? I really don't want to watch it but I probably will if I don't know how bad it is."
Are you asking bridget or me?
Are you asking bridget or me?
Because not only would Clary actually develop depth, Sebastian could actually learn to love and build on a foundation of trust. He would learn all the emotions that Valentine so carelessly tossed to the side - love, trust, friendship, kindness and empathy. And who better to learn it than with your potential lover. Another reason why i ship this more than i ship *shudders* Clace, is because Jace would finally start to learn that he can't get everything that he wants especially not any girl that he wants.
So all in all, Clabastian would be interesting.
Before anyone starts commenting about the rape part, he was confused - he didn't know what it means to love. He was feeling desperate to connect with Clary that he ended up using brutal force.