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Clabastian vs Clace
message 51:
by
Sophie
(new)
Jul 04, 2014 10:26AM
CLACE!!!!!
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Pauline wrote: "CLACE - FOREVER & ALWAYS"Ditto!
Livvy wrote: "Okay... maybe I should rephrase:Sebastian or Jace- who do ya love more?"
Jace.
Lys wrote: "Neona wrote: "Tara wrote: "Also their described completely different...they look nothing alike."It's funny i read Clockwork angel a little before i read glass and i though Oh my gosh Will acts Ju..."
What is this Traleb thing? Please don't tell me, it's Tris and Caleb!
Yeah, it's tris and Caleb. I only heard about it on this thread!
Ishbel wrote: "Yeah, it's tris and Caleb. I only heard about it on this thread!"Okay. NO!
I know! It's just so wrong! How do people come up with stuff like that??! Well... I guess tumblr and fanfic exist for a reason! :/
Ishbel wrote: "I know! It's just so wrong! How do people come up with stuff like that??! Well... I guess tumblr and fanfic exist for a reason! :/"Probably because The actors playing brother and sister, then lovers.
OMG that is SUCH a hard decision (this is to be read in an extremely sarcastic voice)CLACE DERP
OMG I cant believe that some people ship Clabastian. I ship 110% Clace they are meant to be, since book one!!
Personally I ship Clabastian <3
Clace shippers are full of shit "well at least It turned out it wasn't taboo." Shut the hell up as if you didn't ship them when they were thought to be related seriously guys they're just hypocrites on their high horse and Clary actually would need to be a better character for me to rrally ship them but in my version she is lol which is the oy reason she gets to be with Sebastian in a ship ! Clary literally had more chemistry with her brother in 2 days or 2 short scenes than clace did in 6 whole books!! And I may add it seems Clary becomes a more interesting and maybe even better character when she's around him.
Clace shippers are full of shit "well at least It turned out it wasn't taboo." Shut the hell up as if you didn't ship them when they were thought to be related seriously guys they're just hypocrites on their high horse and Clary actually would need to be a better character for me to rrally ship them but in my version she is lol which is the oy reason she gets to be with Sebastian in a ship ! Clary literally had more chemistry with her brother in 2 days or 2 short scenes than clace did in 6 whole books!! And I may add it seems Clary becomes a more interesting and maybe even better character when she's around him.
Anne Marie wrote: "I ship clace the most only because of the scene where Sebastian almost rapes clary "
You could barely call that a rape scene... Seriously. Also.. it felt forced and out of place... Even if something like that took place I mean a girl would have probably fallen for Sebastian by that point lol.. and to all the people saying he's evil .. Jace is a fuckboy..So...
You could barely call that a rape scene... Seriously. Also.. it felt forced and out of place... Even if something like that took place I mean a girl would have probably fallen for Sebastian by that point lol.. and to all the people saying he's evil .. Jace is a fuckboy..So...
Livia wrote: "So I ship both Clabastian and Clace, but I really want to know what other people think/feel about both ships, so I can choose one. Come on guys, I need to know which ships better!"
Uh... Why on earth would you ship clace? Lol seriously if someone ships something as awful and tasteless as clace I don't think they should say they ship clabastian ..
Uh... Why on earth would you ship clace? Lol seriously if someone ships something as awful and tasteless as clace I don't think they should say they ship clabastian ..
CLACE! I did not even know people shipped Clabastian! He's her brother! And he's an evil half-demon! And he's dead!
Sejal wrote: "CLACE! I did not even know people shipped Clabastian! He's her brother! And he's an evil half-demon! And he's dead!"
And? Those aren't argument they're just facts. Also he isn't evil and he isn't even half demon he just has demon blood.
And? Those aren't argument they're just facts. Also he isn't evil and he isn't even half demon he just has demon blood.
Atty wrote: "Sejal wrote: "CLACE! I did not even know people shipped Clabastian! He's her brother! And he's an evil half-demon! And he's dead!"And? Those aren't argument they're just facts. Also he isn't evil..."
Sorry, that post was kind of worded weirdly. I wasn't trying to argue I was just providing the reason that I don't ship Clabastian. And honestly, SEBASTIAN was "evil", JONATHAN (from the end of COHF) was not evil. You're right he's not a half-demon, though.
Sejal wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sejal wrote: "CLACE! I did not even know people shipped Clabastian! He's her brother! And he's an evil half-demon! And he's dead!"
And? Those aren't argument they're just facts. Also ..."
You actually were trying to argue because the tone you were using implied that everyone should be against it like it's the most obvious and only reaction someone should have. Sebastian was not evil at all... in fact he was less evil than the so-called heroes, good and evil are just made up concepts because morality is something people made up . I consider Sebastian the real Jonathan and the core part of him... the character that was supposedly the real Jonathan was a very one dimensional character with nothing interesting that delivered mostly cliched lines just like every other Cassandra Clare character she has written lol
And? Those aren't argument they're just facts. Also ..."
You actually were trying to argue because the tone you were using implied that everyone should be against it like it's the most obvious and only reaction someone should have. Sebastian was not evil at all... in fact he was less evil than the so-called heroes, good and evil are just made up concepts because morality is something people made up . I consider Sebastian the real Jonathan and the core part of him... the character that was supposedly the real Jonathan was a very one dimensional character with nothing interesting that delivered mostly cliched lines just like every other Cassandra Clare character she has written lol
Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. Sebastian, not to mention who is her brother, tried to rape her while Jace on the other hand wouldnt hurt her willingly or if forced to.
Also he's jot Sebastian, he's Jonathan.
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. Sebastian, not to mention who is her brother, tried to rape her while Jac..."
This comment almost made me want to vomit.
Cassandra Clare just threw in that rape scene and clary' she "disgust" to make Sebastian irredeemable .
This comment almost made me want to vomit.
Cassandra Clare just threw in that rape scene and clary' she "disgust" to make Sebastian irredeemable .
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Also he's jot Sebastian, he's Jonathan."
He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyone who uses that name doesn't like the character that Sebastian actually was, they like who he would have been it just makes me sick they're just as bad as Jocelyn! Besides , Jonathan renamed himself Sebastian .
He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyone who uses that name doesn't like the character that Sebastian actually was, they like who he would have been it just makes me sick they're just as bad as Jocelyn! Besides , Jonathan renamed himself Sebastian .
Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Also he's jot Sebastian, he's Jonathan."He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyone who uses that name doesn't like the character t..."
Technically Sebastian was the name he took on because he pretended to be someone else so he sort of had to, the real Sebastian is dead. Though yea I'd rather call him Sebastian; he without a doubt doesn't deserve the name Jonathan.
Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. Sebastian, not to mention who is her brother, trie..."Even if she did, look at it from Clary's point of view, how would it be like if one of the people you feel like betrayed you the most tried to do that?
Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. Sebastian, not to mention who is her brother, trie..."I'm sorry if it sounded a bit weird I was just trying to consider things from Clary's point of view. But I'm confused why it made you want to vomit please explain in a bit more detail. I'm sorry if I sound a bit rude, I honestly don't mean to I'm just a bit confused on what you're trying to say.
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Also he's jot Sebastian, he's Jonathan."
He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyone who uses that name doesn't like th..."
Ok...no lol he initially used that name but then he decided to keep it even after everyone found out because he wanted to choose his own name ... kind of like a fresh start and to dissociate himself from Jocelyn and valentine who both abused and neglected him.
He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyone who uses that name doesn't like th..."
Ok...no lol he initially used that name but then he decided to keep it even after everyone found out because he wanted to choose his own name ... kind of like a fresh start and to dissociate himself from Jocelyn and valentine who both abused and neglected him.
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. Sebastian, not to mention who is her ..."
That reply kind of didn't make sense...what would I feel like if someone who betrayed me tried to do that? She never trusted him and never cared about him according to just about everyone...which is actually a lie if the readers were paying attention certain lines in the last two books directly contradict that and every other presumption and misinterpretation of the character.
That reply kind of didn't make sense...what would I feel like if someone who betrayed me tried to do that? She never trusted him and never cared about him according to just about everyone...which is actually a lie if the readers were paying attention certain lines in the last two books directly contradict that and every other presumption and misinterpretation of the character.
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. Sebastian, not to mention who is her ..."
Ok lol look I could literally explain it in such depth that you might actually get tired of the conversation unless you're really interested but most fans of the series don't want to really understand him. But I can explain his character because I understand the character more than even the author seems to .
Sebastian is a complex yet simple to understand character if you really think about it . First I'll ask you to imagine you were in the womb and fed demon blood... when you were born your mother hated you and didn't even want to look at you or even feed you because of it and considered you an abomination. Your father cared about you only to the extent of making you a soldier for his plans and cared about your adopted sibling more ... loved him and disregarded you... then you found a sibling .. found out you had one and went through a lot of trouble and yes murder to get to meet them ... only to later have them hate you and reject you like the rest of your family... when you were carrying out orders and risking punishment for not following them. Also you had been whipped with something that caused you pain for the rest of your life.
The so called heroes literally have not even had a small taste of what that feels like .... they were all raised by loving families to some degree and protected and trained but not abused.. yet they do all sorts of awful things that people blindly excuse simply because they are told these are the heroes , the good guys. Clary and Jocelyn have both considered having killed Jonathan when he was born and that's just sick. Heroes risk their own lives... for example, Harry Potter, Tris, etc. I don't know if you remember but Alec said that if anything happened to Clary, jace would burn down the world and dig her out of the ashes yet when Sebastian said he wanted to burn down the world but would be willing to spare it if it meant having Clary by his side for eternity then it was worth it ... everyone said he was evil and should just die already... after the biggest testament of love I have ever heard fro, a character , he was called evil and incapable of love !!!! I can explain more but I feel like this reply is long enough so if you want more detail and examples please let me know and I'll explain it in my next reply XD
But just for some perspective I will link a video to you of dean winchester , who everyone likes, facing his demon self in supernatural ... listen carefully to the similarities between the characters... the only difference is Dean had a brother who loved him and parents who cared about him, mostly the mother but the father proved he was willing to risk his life for his son.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYCtt7O...
Ok lol look I could literally explain it in such depth that you might actually get tired of the conversation unless you're really interested but most fans of the series don't want to really understand him. But I can explain his character because I understand the character more than even the author seems to .
Sebastian is a complex yet simple to understand character if you really think about it . First I'll ask you to imagine you were in the womb and fed demon blood... when you were born your mother hated you and didn't even want to look at you or even feed you because of it and considered you an abomination. Your father cared about you only to the extent of making you a soldier for his plans and cared about your adopted sibling more ... loved him and disregarded you... then you found a sibling .. found out you had one and went through a lot of trouble and yes murder to get to meet them ... only to later have them hate you and reject you like the rest of your family... when you were carrying out orders and risking punishment for not following them. Also you had been whipped with something that caused you pain for the rest of your life.
The so called heroes literally have not even had a small taste of what that feels like .... they were all raised by loving families to some degree and protected and trained but not abused.. yet they do all sorts of awful things that people blindly excuse simply because they are told these are the heroes , the good guys. Clary and Jocelyn have both considered having killed Jonathan when he was born and that's just sick. Heroes risk their own lives... for example, Harry Potter, Tris, etc. I don't know if you remember but Alec said that if anything happened to Clary, jace would burn down the world and dig her out of the ashes yet when Sebastian said he wanted to burn down the world but would be willing to spare it if it meant having Clary by his side for eternity then it was worth it ... everyone said he was evil and should just die already... after the biggest testament of love I have ever heard fro, a character , he was called evil and incapable of love !!!! I can explain more but I feel like this reply is long enough so if you want more detail and examples please let me know and I'll explain it in my next reply XD
But just for some perspective I will link a video to you of dean winchester , who everyone likes, facing his demon self in supernatural ... listen carefully to the similarities between the characters... the only difference is Dean had a brother who loved him and parents who cared about him, mostly the mother but the father proved he was willing to risk his life for his son.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYCtt7O...
Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Also he's jot Sebastian, he's Jonathan."He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyone who uses th..."
Yes okay he decided to keep his name I was just saying that his given name is actually Jonathan but he decided to keep Sebastian and now (well not anymore considering he's dead) goes with that name. Is that worded a bit better?
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Also he's jot Sebastian, he's Jonathan."
He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyon..."
I was already aware of that ... I already knew his real name was Jonathan Christopher Morgenstern.
He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like his name too but everyon..."
I was already aware of that ... I already knew his real name was Jonathan Christopher Morgenstern.
To be honest, this is stupid. You're really shipping incest? In the words of Hermione Granger, you really need to sort out your priorities.
Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. Sebastian, not..."Thanks, I see your point but I still stand by my answer: Clace is better. Maybe Sebastian does deserve Clary, but Clary doesn't understand his way of loving her, she thinks all he does is want; not love. She only saw the side where he was turning people who were parabatai, friends, family into something capable of killing the people they love. Then the fact that Jocelyn and Jace got taken didn't by him help either so that in mind all she could think of was to kill him. Though you've got a point I kinda feel sorry for Sebastian considering he's trying so hard just to be loved. So basically Sebastian does deserve Clary but she doesn't deserve him-I feel like I'm repeating again and again but this is my first time actually talking to someone online to someone I don't know and if you have the patience to read all my crap; also I feel like you're going to say something about how she does deserve him. But see if she did stay the love wouldn't be real, Clary doesn't love Sebastian, she won't empathize him especially if she takes Jace away from her
Tbh if you dont get any of what I just said I don't blame you:I don't either
P.s. You do have really good arguments and I bet you're going to come up with another that's makes my opinion look even dumber than they already do!!!Nice XD lol!!!
Trinity wrote: "To be honest, this is stupid. You're really shipping incest? In the words of Hermione Granger, you really need to sort out your priorities."HAHA SO TRUE (right now I'm being a hypocrite but not the point).
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Trinity wrote: "To be honest, this is stupid. You're really shipping incest? In the words of Hermione Granger, you really need to sort out your priorities."
HAHA SO TRUE (right now I'm being a hyp..."
How fucking ironic considering Harry and Hermione were supposed to end up together and they're related. So get over it and please just get your head out of your ass trinity .
Woah wait ... being a hypocrite but that isn't the point ? Lol
HAHA SO TRUE (right now I'm being a hyp..."
How fucking ironic considering Harry and Hermione were supposed to end up together and they're related. So get over it and please just get your head out of your ass trinity .
Woah wait ... being a hypocrite but that isn't the point ? Lol
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just stop believing in love. S..."
That's because Clary ignores everything but the bad ... but no matter what jace does she considers him perfect and just sooo beautiful. The thing is Clary and Jace represent people who feel superior despite not having earned the right to. I will admit you are right that she definitely doesn't understand his way of loving her ... because as so many anti Clary fans have stated she is really stupid and reckless lol. Yes he did turn her friends against each other but here's the catch, it was only because the rest of them refused to drink from the cup.. and you can clearly see that up until the last scenes from the books Sebastian is logical not emotional for the most part which is why I respect his character . I don't feel sorry for Sebastian that all he wants is to be loved I mean I do but I feel more sorry for him because he's surrounded by idiots ! Yes Sebastian does deserve Clary more than anything but Clary doesn't deserve him ... the reason I ship them is because when I ship them , in my head Clary is different, she's actually worthy of him.. so basically I reinvented the character . But I will mention this... Cassandra Clare originally wrote the Draco trilogy which paired Ginny Weasley with Draco Malloy and they are actually cousins and technically everyone in the wizarding world is related...much like the real world most ...or all of humanity is related to one degree or another .. it's basic math. So what I'm trying to say is Cassandra either changed the plot because the fans disliked the elements of the relationship or she changed her mind and is now preaching about how it's wrong because she's famous . The truth is if you pay close attention and read certain lines, you will realize that Clary actually is attracted to and likes Sebastian but Cassandra had to straddle the line , allow some suggestions but pull back and change it just as it started to cross a certain boundary ... it's funny how the fans disregard that because they don't like it so they easily ship clace and automatically deny any attraction despite blatant statements and hints that are dropped throughout the books.
For example : the so called rape scene where Sebastian calls Clary out on her BS and says he knows that clary isn't bothered by the fact that he is her brother ... because she still wanted jace when she thought they were siblings... her response? "Jace is better than you." Um... what? I thought your reason for rejecting him was because he was your brother .
Also the minute Sebastian does something Clary flips out over every single thing he does later whether he's taking his shirt off , getting a glass of wine, etc.
On the other hand jace could murder someone in front of her, destroy the world, and treat her like an incompetent child while simultaneously treating her like a sex object and she would still be bragging about how great he is and how beautiful. Ugh! Reading their scenes together was like cheap cliched teen romance ... every word out of jace's mouth is fanservice because he "lives" for Clary and nothing else matters and it's suddenly the entire reason for his existence... which is completely unrealistic... in real life jace is the guy any smart girl would avoid like the plague ... think about it
He brags about himself endlessly
Insults and mocks and hates her best friend
Makes every situation about himself despite the fact that Clary was trying to talk about her problems and how they were affecting her
The list goes on and on .... but here's one more
He loves getting attention from other girls and would likely cheat on her ... yet he claims she is the only one he is interested in .
On the other hand when Sebastian is with Clary he is admired by attractive women while walking around Paris with her yet the only one he has eyes for is Clary ... literally disregards every other person around him and is intrigued and attracted to her and even Clary herself points this out.
It gets really annoying when I have to connect the dots for people because usually they don't even want to hear it . But I'm glad you have and you understand what I'm saying .
I have good arguments because I enjoy debate and if I believe I'm right about something I'll defend it very strongly ... like to the extent where someone might back off simply because it's intimidating XD but thank you :)
That's because Clary ignores everything but the bad ... but no matter what jace does she considers him perfect and just sooo beautiful. The thing is Clary and Jace represent people who feel superior despite not having earned the right to. I will admit you are right that she definitely doesn't understand his way of loving her ... because as so many anti Clary fans have stated she is really stupid and reckless lol. Yes he did turn her friends against each other but here's the catch, it was only because the rest of them refused to drink from the cup.. and you can clearly see that up until the last scenes from the books Sebastian is logical not emotional for the most part which is why I respect his character . I don't feel sorry for Sebastian that all he wants is to be loved I mean I do but I feel more sorry for him because he's surrounded by idiots ! Yes Sebastian does deserve Clary more than anything but Clary doesn't deserve him ... the reason I ship them is because when I ship them , in my head Clary is different, she's actually worthy of him.. so basically I reinvented the character . But I will mention this... Cassandra Clare originally wrote the Draco trilogy which paired Ginny Weasley with Draco Malloy and they are actually cousins and technically everyone in the wizarding world is related...much like the real world most ...or all of humanity is related to one degree or another .. it's basic math. So what I'm trying to say is Cassandra either changed the plot because the fans disliked the elements of the relationship or she changed her mind and is now preaching about how it's wrong because she's famous . The truth is if you pay close attention and read certain lines, you will realize that Clary actually is attracted to and likes Sebastian but Cassandra had to straddle the line , allow some suggestions but pull back and change it just as it started to cross a certain boundary ... it's funny how the fans disregard that because they don't like it so they easily ship clace and automatically deny any attraction despite blatant statements and hints that are dropped throughout the books.
For example : the so called rape scene where Sebastian calls Clary out on her BS and says he knows that clary isn't bothered by the fact that he is her brother ... because she still wanted jace when she thought they were siblings... her response? "Jace is better than you." Um... what? I thought your reason for rejecting him was because he was your brother .
Also the minute Sebastian does something Clary flips out over every single thing he does later whether he's taking his shirt off , getting a glass of wine, etc.
On the other hand jace could murder someone in front of her, destroy the world, and treat her like an incompetent child while simultaneously treating her like a sex object and she would still be bragging about how great he is and how beautiful. Ugh! Reading their scenes together was like cheap cliched teen romance ... every word out of jace's mouth is fanservice because he "lives" for Clary and nothing else matters and it's suddenly the entire reason for his existence... which is completely unrealistic... in real life jace is the guy any smart girl would avoid like the plague ... think about it
He brags about himself endlessly
Insults and mocks and hates her best friend
Makes every situation about himself despite the fact that Clary was trying to talk about her problems and how they were affecting her
The list goes on and on .... but here's one more
He loves getting attention from other girls and would likely cheat on her ... yet he claims she is the only one he is interested in .
On the other hand when Sebastian is with Clary he is admired by attractive women while walking around Paris with her yet the only one he has eyes for is Clary ... literally disregards every other person around him and is intrigued and attracted to her and even Clary herself points this out.
It gets really annoying when I have to connect the dots for people because usually they don't even want to hear it . But I'm glad you have and you understand what I'm saying .
I have good arguments because I enjoy debate and if I believe I'm right about something I'll defend it very strongly ... like to the extent where someone might back off simply because it's intimidating XD but thank you :)
Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I would just st..."Oh damn right I'm intimidated, but hey everyone has their different opinions and at school me and my friend are usually very passionate about the smallest of things to the point where we'd just scream at you for about as long as it takes haha.
Though I see all you're points and I get you're points just some of them I don't entirely agree with like some points about Jace like he brags about himself but most of the time it's as a joke plus afterward him and Simon do become friends and they mock each other in a friendly way (at least that's how I see it); I see what you mean about the cliched romance though which is kind of disappointing. Though after all I still stick with Clace (I'm stubborn) but I do understand you're points about Sebastian, I just don't see them as a thing and if I were to explain why that would just be repeating most of the things I said above and some more which all together would take time and effort to write and I think some people are getting annoyed from getting notifications of me filling up the comments with my writing.
Though it's been a pleasure debating with you XD
Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Also he's jot Sebastian, he's Jonathan."He is Sebastian. I would call him Jonathan I actually like h..."
okay then...haha.
clace obviously there just meant to be
Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Atty wrote: "Sushi_lover_16 wrote: "Clace...duh. I mean (Emma said this as well) if Clary and Jace weren't a thing I think I ..."
Lol ok. Yeah I, aware of that but even opinions I hold as so,etching more objective than subjective sometimes because even though everyone tells you opinions can't be right or wrong... they're wrong XD most of them can. Also I am just as stubborn trust me, and yes I will strongly defend my side .
Yes but here's the problem... even when jace supposedly betters himself .. he is still a horrible and cliched character ... he just changes into a different kind ... one that repeats his love for Clary while treating her terribly but Clary is also terrible so she treats him terribly and like what he wants doesn't matter so in a sense what these naive and frankly stupid fan girls said about them being meant for each other is completely true in the worst way possible there is literally no other character as awful as them that they could be with except maybe Jordan and Maia lol because Maia is a subservient and forgiving person from what I have heard .. and Jordan is an aggressive asshole who apologizes after the damage is done and claims to love her, which is exactly like Clary.... I just realized that XD
I know why you don't see Clary and Sebastian happening it's because the author won't let it happen and you can just see the "evidence" she gives to justify that decision .. most of the fan girls just repeat what Cassandra says like mindless robots . And they ship who she says they should ship... it doesn't get any more brainwashed than that .
But I will ask you two questions ... first of all what do you think of the character of Sebastian himself? I will admit that I liked his real name but I just don't like what the fans associate with his real name ... they associate name Jonathan with the "real" jonathan .
And my 2nd question is if you found out that Clary actually does like Sebastian which is actually proved in certain parts of each book... or if she were a better character... would you ship them?
After you respond to these 2 questions I will tell you exactly why I take this stance on these characters. If you want me to.
Don't worry your replies are not bothering me ... sometimes I even wish you responded a bit sooner.
Lol ok. Yeah I, aware of that but even opinions I hold as so,etching more objective than subjective sometimes because even though everyone tells you opinions can't be right or wrong... they're wrong XD most of them can. Also I am just as stubborn trust me, and yes I will strongly defend my side .
Yes but here's the problem... even when jace supposedly betters himself .. he is still a horrible and cliched character ... he just changes into a different kind ... one that repeats his love for Clary while treating her terribly but Clary is also terrible so she treats him terribly and like what he wants doesn't matter so in a sense what these naive and frankly stupid fan girls said about them being meant for each other is completely true in the worst way possible there is literally no other character as awful as them that they could be with except maybe Jordan and Maia lol because Maia is a subservient and forgiving person from what I have heard .. and Jordan is an aggressive asshole who apologizes after the damage is done and claims to love her, which is exactly like Clary.... I just realized that XD
I know why you don't see Clary and Sebastian happening it's because the author won't let it happen and you can just see the "evidence" she gives to justify that decision .. most of the fan girls just repeat what Cassandra says like mindless robots . And they ship who she says they should ship... it doesn't get any more brainwashed than that .
But I will ask you two questions ... first of all what do you think of the character of Sebastian himself? I will admit that I liked his real name but I just don't like what the fans associate with his real name ... they associate name Jonathan with the "real" jonathan .
And my 2nd question is if you found out that Clary actually does like Sebastian which is actually proved in certain parts of each book... or if she were a better character... would you ship them?
After you respond to these 2 questions I will tell you exactly why I take this stance on these characters. If you want me to.
Don't worry your replies are not bothering me ... sometimes I even wish you responded a bit sooner.
Of course I choose Clace! I feel happy inside whenever they have their "moments." I loved their development of love and friendship throughout the books, and I would never ship either of them with anyone else.
Trinity wrote: "Atty shut the fuck up, nobody asked for your low quality opinions, dumbass."
Sweetie, nobody asked for your low quality poorly thought out offended response like so,wine shoved a stick up your ass and technically this post asks for opinions... so... go fuck yourself :)
Sweetie, nobody asked for your low quality poorly thought out offended response like so,wine shoved a stick up your ass and technically this post asks for opinions... so... go fuck yourself :)
So I'm scrolling through this comments and replies and I'm impressed at how some people actually strongly defended for their ship, unlike most of the replies. Lol I'm also impressed...no shocked is the right word... I'm shocked that people hate Sebastian/Jonathan. I haven't finished the series yet because I just started reading TMI this year, but I've done some research about these ships. And I know I'm supposed to choose a ship that I like and I'm done replying to the post, but me being me, I like to stay and talk... discuss lol. I ship neither Clace nor Clabastian. I'm kind of leaning towards Clabastian because idk, but I'm not hear to rant about ships and choose which one is better and give reasons. I'm here to talk about Sebastian.
It disgusts me how people just hate him without really looking into him and his backstory. I mean, you can compare Sebastian or Jonathan, I guess, with Charlotte Dilaurentis from Pll. She became A not because she liked torturing them (well, she does, but I'm gonna keep on explaining.) but because she was a boy, because she was sent away to Radley at a young age, because her father, who should've been her role model when she grew up, left her, hated her, and thought she was dangerous. Honestly, that sucks.
The same thing goes for sebastian. I mean, how would you feel if you had a crazy maniac father who injected you with demon blood when you were still in your mom's womb, and your mom thought you were a monster from the day you were born? Stings, doesnt it? And to have your father manipulate you into thinking that your mother left you because she thought you were a monster. To have your father care about your well-being only because you're a pawn and a puppet. To have not meaning anything to your father. And you should know that Valentine lashed him in the back with a demon whip and Valentine lied to him the whole time.
Sebastian has been through more than any of the other Shadowhunters. And if you can't stop and think about his past and why he's become a cold-blooded killer, then you sure as hell have no right to say that Sebastian is cruel, evil, and demonic because THATS WHAT VALENTINE MADE HIM BECOME.
I'm just so pissed at what people are saying about Sebastian. I mean, you guys don't ship him with Clary because he's evil and they're siblings and it's wrong. Well, what happened when Clary and Jace found out they were siblings. Nada. Ship still kept sailing.
Lol it's not like you would've shipped Clace if Jace was Sebastian and Sebastian was Jace. Would you ship Clabastian if Sebastian wasnt raised like that? I have a feeling you would.
So you get what I'm saying here. Cuz jace may have went thru a lot, having lied about his name and falcon killed, but boy, u didnt go thru hell and U have angel blood.
Gwenzo wrote: "So I'm scrolling through this comments and replies and I'm impressed at how some people actually strongly defended for their ship, unlike most of the replies. Lol I'm also impressed...no shocked is..."
I will say this .. if you want to know why clace sucks as a concept for a ship or the relationship altogether I can explain. I can also defend clabastian .. it isn't wrong or disgusting. But I will focus on Sebastian.
Sebastian has been through a lot and that gives people .. strong people who endure it.. the ability to see things from many perspectives.. and to keep themselves emotionally distanced but open up to people they trust or want to trust them so they give tidbits of information to people they find interesting or that they like.
Second, valentine is not evil for injecting Jonathan with demon blood, it made him stronger and more logical . I would even go so far as to say that whipping him wasn't the worst thing he did despite it causing him pain eternally , there is something he did which is equally as bad.. it's the fact that he deprived Sebastian of any love that a child is entitled to and needs to feel accepted as part of the human race. The scars however did give him a deeper character flaw but also more interesting depth. Also clary seemed fascinated with his scars and it even evoked some empathy from her.
Many people call Sebastian evil because they simply don't understand him, they can't even comprehend what it means to have parents who are so awful that they neglect and mistreat a child to the point where the child disowns them . They are very boring and cliched and oblivious to the harsh realities so they relate better to characters who are just like them... Clary and jace.. although I would argue that clary is actually a bit more interesting and had potential but the author ruined it.
Yes the fandom is full of hypocrites, and anyone who ships clabastian knows it . They act like they always knew they weren't siblings or some other crap. They're perfectly fine shipping destructive and gay relationships but when it comes to siblings they feel morally superior ironically, for some ridiculous reason.
Last but definitely not least Sebastian is not cold blooded or a senseless villain , if he was then he wouldn't be as believable , interesting, or have as much depth as he does . If he was unloving he wouldn't find Clary to be his weakness, no matter how hard he tries to disconnect from humanity and pretend he is what everyone already assumes he is, which is someone who cares about nothing but power, he finds that he cannot stop himself from caring about one person no matter what , possibly because of the fact that he does want someone to care about deep down, someone to be like him to understand him , to love him. Clary. His love her Is stronger than any character's love for anyone in the entire series ... he wants to conquer and make a world for himself but only with her by his side... while at the same time he wants to give her power and immortality and even is willing to give up his plans for destroying the world and is willing to spare her friends and family and keep them there without turning them into endarkened ones to make her happy. He is willing to give up everything for her and give her everything he can ... if that isn't the deepest form and demonstration of love then I don't know what is.. because nothing is stronger than that.
I will say this .. if you want to know why clace sucks as a concept for a ship or the relationship altogether I can explain. I can also defend clabastian .. it isn't wrong or disgusting. But I will focus on Sebastian.
Sebastian has been through a lot and that gives people .. strong people who endure it.. the ability to see things from many perspectives.. and to keep themselves emotionally distanced but open up to people they trust or want to trust them so they give tidbits of information to people they find interesting or that they like.
Second, valentine is not evil for injecting Jonathan with demon blood, it made him stronger and more logical . I would even go so far as to say that whipping him wasn't the worst thing he did despite it causing him pain eternally , there is something he did which is equally as bad.. it's the fact that he deprived Sebastian of any love that a child is entitled to and needs to feel accepted as part of the human race. The scars however did give him a deeper character flaw but also more interesting depth. Also clary seemed fascinated with his scars and it even evoked some empathy from her.
Many people call Sebastian evil because they simply don't understand him, they can't even comprehend what it means to have parents who are so awful that they neglect and mistreat a child to the point where the child disowns them . They are very boring and cliched and oblivious to the harsh realities so they relate better to characters who are just like them... Clary and jace.. although I would argue that clary is actually a bit more interesting and had potential but the author ruined it.
Yes the fandom is full of hypocrites, and anyone who ships clabastian knows it . They act like they always knew they weren't siblings or some other crap. They're perfectly fine shipping destructive and gay relationships but when it comes to siblings they feel morally superior ironically, for some ridiculous reason.
Last but definitely not least Sebastian is not cold blooded or a senseless villain , if he was then he wouldn't be as believable , interesting, or have as much depth as he does . If he was unloving he wouldn't find Clary to be his weakness, no matter how hard he tries to disconnect from humanity and pretend he is what everyone already assumes he is, which is someone who cares about nothing but power, he finds that he cannot stop himself from caring about one person no matter what , possibly because of the fact that he does want someone to care about deep down, someone to be like him to understand him , to love him. Clary. His love her Is stronger than any character's love for anyone in the entire series ... he wants to conquer and make a world for himself but only with her by his side... while at the same time he wants to give her power and immortality and even is willing to give up his plans for destroying the world and is willing to spare her friends and family and keep them there without turning them into endarkened ones to make her happy. He is willing to give up everything for her and give her everything he can ... if that isn't the deepest form and demonstration of love then I don't know what is.. because nothing is stronger than that.
i was not even aware that clabastian was a ship? i find it kinda weird, even tho i still shipped Clary and Jace when i thought they were brother and sister. Like come on tho, Sebastian is an evil demon guy!
Emily wrote: "i was not even aware that clabastian was a ship? i find it kinda weird, even tho i still shipped Clary and Jace when i thought they were brother and sister. Like come on tho, Sebastian is an evil d..."
It's like you can't even read....
it isn't weird at all and wow in the same comment that you condemn it you also prove yourself to be a hypocrite lol saying you shipped clace. Sebastian is not an evil demon guy ... I could prove to you he has more depth than that unlike your previous jace or Clary.
It's like you can't even read....
it isn't weird at all and wow in the same comment that you condemn it you also prove yourself to be a hypocrite lol saying you shipped clace. Sebastian is not an evil demon guy ... I could prove to you he has more depth than that unlike your previous jace or Clary.
Atty wrote: "Gwenzo wrote: "So I'm scrolling through this comments and replies and I'm impressed at how some people actually strongly defended for their ship, unlike most of the replies. Lol I'm also impressed...."Okay so first of all, I don't understand your point in why shipping a Gay couple would be anywhere near wrong, or has anything to do with shipping bad couples.
(Btw, spoiler alert if anyone haven't read all of the books.) And now to why I DON'T ship Clabastian or like him as a person. Sebastian is a complex and intresting character who changes back and forth during the series. So I can agree that he is indeed a great character, but I don't agree that he is anywhere near being a good person. His depth and complexity is not an argument for why you should like HIM, and the way he acts, even though it is a good reason for liking the character. If you understand me? The two things doesn't have to do with eachother in my opinion.
And Sebastian, having a horrible upbringing doesn't make him likeable? I can understand his behaviour and stuff, but can't excuse his actions. Yes, Valentine was a horrible father, and Jocelyn wasn't a good mother to him, but that wasn't her fault. That was Valentine's fault. If he never would have poisoned Jonathan's (Sebastian) blood with demonblood she wouldn't have acted the way she did towards him. She regretted it deeply, and also thought he was killed by Valentine himself so...? What else should she have done? Risked her daughters safety too?
I know he couldn't help himself, it was in his nature doing bad stuff by having demonblood and that upbringing and I feel sorry for the person he could have been (The one Clary got to see a glimpse of in her dream and right before he died.)but not the one he was. He was a killer and was close to raping Clary in CoLs, he manipulated the people around him and forced innocent people to fight, die and do horrible things for him. And he killed a child for gods sake? I understand why he became the person he did but doesn't mean I have to LIKE that person.
I don't understand how you can ship them since BOTH of them have to feel likewise, for it to be a good couple. It doesn't help that he had delusions about her loving him like THAT, she never did? She even thought he felt weird when she didn't know they were siblings yet. In the end she only liked the person he could have been, not the one he was. He was obsessed with her, and if you wan't to talk about unhealthy relationships, well that's definately one.
And I just CAN'T support Incest, I mean HOW can you justify that couple by saying HE loved her that way, it's still wrong?
I know everybody keeps saying that "But everyone shipped Clace when we thought they were siblings" but personally, I thought it was kind of obvious they never were? I mean if you've read books before you can se how cliché the series really is? (I still love it, don't judge me.) The whole series is based upon their relationships, It's kind of obvious? It's the typical relationship where the authour meant them to be together but put obstacles in their way to keep the tensions and excitement in the books, Since it builds up to the last book. No author would base teenbooks on an incest couple, when it's clear they're ment to be the obvious couple? I was just waiting for them to find out they never were siblings. (Just look at the happy ending of the last book, it's obvious all along she'd never let any of them die or for them to be siblings. You can see then that she meant for it to be that way all along. And then she's got the typical antagonist, you know all along is bad. You've got the typical unhappy couple, and the vulnerable hot boy the protagonist falls inlove with, and ofcourse everybody ends up with a happy ending.)
Plus, she left leads in the 2nd book, what with Imogen when she noticed his birthmark and stuff, and with Jocelyn never being able to tell them the real story, and with their very different features. I knew the author would never do that without a purpose. Especially in the middle of the series.
Jonathan (or Sebastian) wasn't unloving, no. But he certainly wasn't loving either. A loving and caring BROTHER would never tear the world and her wellbeing and her life to shreds to get his own will. He wouldn't force himself upon her, he wouldn't manipulate her and trick her. Plus, once again, it's INCEST soo...
I think Sebastian or Jonathan or whatever you call him, is a very interesting character, his development and his background is so well done, and he has very good and intresting characteristics but I don't like HIM, and what he became.
Clace is and always will be my otp. I just don't understand how ppl could ship clabastian bc thats just gross
Kajsa wrote: "Atty wrote: "Gwenzo wrote: "So I'm scrolling through this comments and replies and I'm impressed at how some people actually strongly defended for their ship, unlike most of the replies. Lol I'm al..."
Because unlike the normal male and female ships , it's the exact opposite so I find it amusing that people condone that kind of thing while condemning other male and female relationships.
Ok the fact that he is interesting and a character with depth is a reason for liking a character and thinking they are a good character I don't understand the confusion and they are not two completely different things, ask anyone with even a bit of sense or more accurately a good degree of sens and they will tell you that.
That's where I disagree with you, he was definitely in control and could make his own decisions , he was logical but allowed for a bit of emotion as well when someone sparked his interest. Ok I really didn't like though that he was more emotional for a time with izzy or whatever her name was ... it was out of character.
No I don't sympathize with him in the way that you are explaining.. I sympathize with the fact that he is unloved truly unloved by both his parents .. a true mother .. would love her child no matter what ... no matter what ! And the fact that she used the demon blood as an excuse was pathetic and especially since she supposedly loved valentine despite the demon blood. She didn't regret what she did , she didn't even miss her son were you not reading the same story I was she regretted that she didn't have the son she wanted ... she was mourning an idea , a person who didn't exist.. not her actual son and I find her to be a disgusting character .
It was not that he couldn't help himself... he did things based on the situation and based on logic and what sort of connection he had with someone.. I know you youngsters can't help being emotional all the time but there's a reason for it .
Another thing is I don't like the supposed "real" Sebastian in other words Jonathan .. unlike a lot of people I liked his character the way he was and I think it was his true self... the real Jonathan as Cassandra Clare portrayed him was a cliched copy of jace , it was disgusting to see in a way even though it was slightly beautiful.
He explains he meant to knock max out like he did with izzy but he was strong and hit him too hard without realizing it. He "raped" Clary according to you but that is not exactly what was happening if you were paying attention you would have noticed that clary actually was attracted to him since the beginning and despite the fact that Cassandra forced her character to be disgusted or act disgusted with him and by him .. it still was obvious and showed through at times that she loved him and was in love with him to a degree that was not explored.
Also when I ship them I ship them with the addition of clary being a good character l the character she had the potential to be and they would worked our perfectly... or as good as a ship can be. She was disgusted because as I said Cassandra Clare forced her own character onto Clary ... but in case you were wondering Cassandra Clare is a liar and actually has no problem with that kind of relationship.. she is fascinated by it and even wrote a Ginny and Draco fanfic.. Ginny and Draco are cousins.
You couldn't have known for sure that clace weren't siblings but ok you wanna talk about unhealthy relationships ? This seems a bit redundant but I'll restate some of it and you can go back and read my most recent post on this thread about it because it explains everything but here goes.. jace makes everything about him and points it out .. when clary is talking about everything that has happened to her or been done to her he says things to make the conversation about him to the point where she says "you know not everything is about you." And he says "yeah but you have to admit most things are." Also .. another time Clary and Sebastian are walking on the streets of Paris and a beautiful girl walks by and looks at him but he completely ignores her because all of his attention and attraction is focused on Clary. And one more thing even though there are many others I'm sure... is when Clary says that jace would do the same for her and Alec agrees and says "he would burn the whole world down and dig you out of the ashes." And yet when Sebastian says he wants to burn down the world but abandons that whole plan because he loves Clary everyone is still calling him evil. What ? Lol
Also everything that you mentioned that Sebastian does jace would have done too except maybe maybe forcing himself on her but that's because he's an emotional and angst teen boy lol so juvenile.... not saying he should force himself on her but he only doesn't do it because he's an unrealistic and mostly just angst romantic cliche.
It's incest so..... so what ? Lol did you think that was an argument in and of itself ? Well I've got news for you it's not . People did it in the past for a long time and it wasn't just for political reasons and believe it or not it wasn't just for bloodlines either.. it was a lot of good reasons so ... trust me I doubt you can actually debate me on it and make enough good arguments in your side to overthrow my argument.
I think the reason you can't truly appreciate or comprehend his character is because you have no idea what it's like ... and you live in a safe bubble.. or at least as safe as you can get in this world.. and you can't even comprehend the mentality of someone like that or the realistic aspects of it. But whatever you can continue to like and ship the horrible and annoying cliches.
Because unlike the normal male and female ships , it's the exact opposite so I find it amusing that people condone that kind of thing while condemning other male and female relationships.
Ok the fact that he is interesting and a character with depth is a reason for liking a character and thinking they are a good character I don't understand the confusion and they are not two completely different things, ask anyone with even a bit of sense or more accurately a good degree of sens and they will tell you that.
That's where I disagree with you, he was definitely in control and could make his own decisions , he was logical but allowed for a bit of emotion as well when someone sparked his interest. Ok I really didn't like though that he was more emotional for a time with izzy or whatever her name was ... it was out of character.
No I don't sympathize with him in the way that you are explaining.. I sympathize with the fact that he is unloved truly unloved by both his parents .. a true mother .. would love her child no matter what ... no matter what ! And the fact that she used the demon blood as an excuse was pathetic and especially since she supposedly loved valentine despite the demon blood. She didn't regret what she did , she didn't even miss her son were you not reading the same story I was she regretted that she didn't have the son she wanted ... she was mourning an idea , a person who didn't exist.. not her actual son and I find her to be a disgusting character .
It was not that he couldn't help himself... he did things based on the situation and based on logic and what sort of connection he had with someone.. I know you youngsters can't help being emotional all the time but there's a reason for it .
Another thing is I don't like the supposed "real" Sebastian in other words Jonathan .. unlike a lot of people I liked his character the way he was and I think it was his true self... the real Jonathan as Cassandra Clare portrayed him was a cliched copy of jace , it was disgusting to see in a way even though it was slightly beautiful.
He explains he meant to knock max out like he did with izzy but he was strong and hit him too hard without realizing it. He "raped" Clary according to you but that is not exactly what was happening if you were paying attention you would have noticed that clary actually was attracted to him since the beginning and despite the fact that Cassandra forced her character to be disgusted or act disgusted with him and by him .. it still was obvious and showed through at times that she loved him and was in love with him to a degree that was not explored.
Also when I ship them I ship them with the addition of clary being a good character l the character she had the potential to be and they would worked our perfectly... or as good as a ship can be. She was disgusted because as I said Cassandra Clare forced her own character onto Clary ... but in case you were wondering Cassandra Clare is a liar and actually has no problem with that kind of relationship.. she is fascinated by it and even wrote a Ginny and Draco fanfic.. Ginny and Draco are cousins.
You couldn't have known for sure that clace weren't siblings but ok you wanna talk about unhealthy relationships ? This seems a bit redundant but I'll restate some of it and you can go back and read my most recent post on this thread about it because it explains everything but here goes.. jace makes everything about him and points it out .. when clary is talking about everything that has happened to her or been done to her he says things to make the conversation about him to the point where she says "you know not everything is about you." And he says "yeah but you have to admit most things are." Also .. another time Clary and Sebastian are walking on the streets of Paris and a beautiful girl walks by and looks at him but he completely ignores her because all of his attention and attraction is focused on Clary. And one more thing even though there are many others I'm sure... is when Clary says that jace would do the same for her and Alec agrees and says "he would burn the whole world down and dig you out of the ashes." And yet when Sebastian says he wants to burn down the world but abandons that whole plan because he loves Clary everyone is still calling him evil. What ? Lol
Also everything that you mentioned that Sebastian does jace would have done too except maybe maybe forcing himself on her but that's because he's an emotional and angst teen boy lol so juvenile.... not saying he should force himself on her but he only doesn't do it because he's an unrealistic and mostly just angst romantic cliche.
It's incest so..... so what ? Lol did you think that was an argument in and of itself ? Well I've got news for you it's not . People did it in the past for a long time and it wasn't just for political reasons and believe it or not it wasn't just for bloodlines either.. it was a lot of good reasons so ... trust me I doubt you can actually debate me on it and make enough good arguments in your side to overthrow my argument.
I think the reason you can't truly appreciate or comprehend his character is because you have no idea what it's like ... and you live in a safe bubble.. or at least as safe as you can get in this world.. and you can't even comprehend the mentality of someone like that or the realistic aspects of it. But whatever you can continue to like and ship the horrible and annoying cliches.
