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The Quiet Gentleman
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The Quiet Gentleman Group Read December 2015 Spoilers thread
Kim wrote: "Just so Theo's planter's daughter is not named Bertha Mason..."Oh, that wins Post of the Day, as far as i'm concerned!
Kim wrote: "Have read Wide Sargasso Sea, and saw the film as well. Will check out Ruth Rendell. I read Jane Eyre for the first time in sixth grade, have read it numerous times since. Read a version by Sharon S..."an android governess in the future? Jane Eyre? Now *that* i'd like to read!
MaryC wrote: "Re Theo, and then Drusilla, it seems to me on this second reading that there ARE some tiny hints along the way that Theo isn't quite the epitome of quiet dependability that he appears to be. Notice..." She thought so: "As for her figure, though some men might admire little plump women, she could not bring herself to suppose that St Erth, himself so slim and graceful, could think her anything but a poor little dab of a girl."
Kim wrote: "Just so Theo's planter's daughter is not named Bertha Mason..."She might do better with Theo than with creepy old Mr Rochester. Perhaps if she stayed in Jamaica she wouldn't go barmy.
Another interesting (and, I think quite funny) treatment of the Jane Eyre story is Jasper Fforde's "The Eyre Affair." I won't even try to describe the setting or the story except to say that it's a sci-fi/fantasy set in an alternative history England where absolutely anything can happen!
I agree that the Morvilles are characters I would have liked to see more of -- they definitely add most of the humor but they don't come in until the very end.Had to share this from Tina on the Ch. 11-22 thread, re: humor in TQG:
when Mr Morville challenges Lady St Erth over lineage and in between tells Drusilla that she needs Gervase to take her upstairs to rest
How did I miss that? Had to go back and check, and yes, indeed, as he is one-upping the Dowager on the superiority of their respective forefathers:
"[Mr. Morville] broke off in the middle of what he was saying to the Dowager to address fatherly words of encouragement to his daughter. 'Going to bed?' he said. 'That's right! ... Better let St. Erth carry you, or you will be tumbling down in another faint!'" I love it.
And I think my favorite moment in the book is when Drusilla goes off on the Dowager for bad-mouthing Gervase. "I will not allow him to be scolded, and slighted, and beset!"
Howard Dec 01, 2015 03:42PMThis is my least favorite Heyer "romance". To me her biggest strength is her humor. This had little humor and little romance.
And she had (as she has had in other novels), a high class person getting away with what normal people would be hanged for.
Howard I consider this comment, even though it doesn't name names, a spoiler. So I've moved it here & will delete it from the other thread.
& some of the other comments, especially regarding Drusilla's parents in the finale, were a bit borderline.
For those who don't know how to do spoiler tags
<*spoiler> your text <*/spoiler> without the asterisks.
Elliot I love your take on this! Will look forward to reading the final version.& I agree that Marianne is subtly & Unfairly blamed for Martin's lack of self control. Surely flirting was the name of the game in those days! What else would there have been to do at Almacks (for example) other than eat inferior refreshments, dance & flirt?
Martin's lack of self control should rather be blamed on overindulgence & generally poor parenting by his mother & father.
I actually liked that Gervase & Marianne (both described as very attractive) followed the path of True Love & chose less physically attractive mates.
☆ Ｃａｒｏｌ ☆ wrote: "Elliot I love your take on this! Will look forward to reading the final version.& I agree that Marianne is subtly & Unfairly blamed for Martin's lack of self control. Surely flirting was the name..."
They could just have normal conversations without flirting, as for instance jane Austen's characters manage to do while dancing. i don't think Martin is considered blameless, but it is suggested that Marianne has given him reason to think that she is attracted to him. She has perhaps overdone the flirting.
Louise wrote: "They could just have normal conversations without flirting, as for instance jane Austen's characters manage to do while dancing. i don't think Martin is considered blameless, but it is suggested that Marianne has given him reason to think that she is attracted to him. She has perhaps overdone the flirting." I think she probably was attracted to him - until two more personable young men came along! She isn't quite 18 yet & wouldn't have met many young men.
Edit - does it say anywhere how old Martin is? I'm guessing not more than 21?
I thought Martin was about nineteen; not sure where I got that impression.The story does reflect a pervasive view—one that I remember from my youth, not all that long ago—that women are always “asking for it.” I remember my grandmother (granted, after she had become a little senile and had no filters) saying that child molestation was the child’s fault—“Have you seen how three-year-olds flirt with their male relatives to get attention?” Just so sick.
It is/was a particularly cruel lie, when women are taught from the cradle (long before they even understand what it means) to behave in sexually charged ways to please men, but when they do as they are taught, they are blamed for men’s uncontrolled reactions. Teaching both sexes self-control from the cradle seems more to the point.
Abigail wrote: "I thought Martin was about nineteen; not sure where I got that impression.The story does reflect a pervasive view—one that I remember from my youth, not all that long ago—that women are always “a..."
Thanks for phrasing this better than I could, Abigail. I can remember a recent teen rape scandal in NZ where one of the young girls did complain to the police & was told it was her fault for wearing a short skirt!
I like Marianne a lot - I can picture the two couples remaining life long friends.
In some cultures down through history, women have been covered from head-to-toe, but if they get raped, it is still their fault. Seems from Eve forward, it is the woman or girl's fault. It makes me sad. In Heyer, and Austen, we see the girls being raised to make good marriages, and avoiding the predators is tricky, as we saw just last month in Faro's Daughter. In the real life biography of the Duchess of Devonshire, once she was married at a tender age, she was left to her own devices and got in a great deal of trouble. Heyer deals with all of this with a deft, light touch in many of her books, but the reality was often much darker.
People have all sorts of reasons to believe our privileges are right and proper - and those without them deserve to be where they are as well.Heyer obviously shows this with the class structure - and with gender. In my opinion she underplays it some to keep a modern audience caring for the upper class protagonists.
One of the things I am appreciating about The Quiet Gentleman (in truth, I am only ten chapters in on this reading) is the subtleties in the characters. Marianne is a charming, goodnatured girl who only wants to do the right thing, where she could so easily have been portrayed as a spoiled, self-centered beauty—like those in Frederica and The Nonesuch. Lord Ulverston is flirtatious but also serious and tactful. Martin is a villain but not the villain; and others have remarked here about the lack of villainy in the real villain! Even the hero is not exclusively heroic. I like how GH is playing with our expectations.
Abigail wrote: "I like how GH is playing with our expectations. "Yes! I am a fan of the "nice-guy" hero -- not the urbane, handsome daredevil, but the good guy who isn't classically good-looking or dashing, the reliable one who does the right thing. You know, usually the best friend of the aforementioned daredevil. They're pretty rare, so when I first read this book, I was immediately disposed to like Theo and hoped for a happy ending for him. Alas, those expectations were dashed. But he turned out to be much more of a daredevil, while good-looking hero Gervase is the quiet, dependable one.
Abigail wrote: "I thought Martin was about nineteen; not sure where I got that impression.The story does reflect a pervasive view—one that I remember from my youth, not all that long ago—that women are always “a..."
I don't think Martin is considered blameless, he is certainly criticised for his behaviour. But there is a suggestion that Marianne has given him the impression that she likes him more than she actually does - gervase sums it up: "the mischief lay in his being too young to rate her pretty smiles at their true worth, and in her being too young to recognise that martin was no man for her playful arts". certainly there is no suggestion that he has any improper intentions towards Marianne, he wants to marry her and imagines she wants to marry him, he's deluded but not a rapist.
Elza wrote: "Abigail wrote: "I like how GH is playing with our expectations. "Yes! I am a fan of the "nice-guy" hero -- not the urbane, handsome daredevil, but the good guy who isn't classically good-looking ..."
i think the interesting thing about Gervase is that he is not as quiet as he appears - he has a well developed sense of humour and gives as good as he gets with his stepmother and brother.
☆ Ｃａｒｏｌ ☆ wrote: "Abigail wrote: "I thought Martin was about nineteen; not sure where I got that impression.The story does reflect a pervasive view—one that I remember from my youth, not all that long ago—that wom..."
Right on - this is what I meant to say, but couldn't say as well.
Louise wrote: "[Martin is] deluded but not a rapist." Exactly! However, it seems that "forcing his attentions on her" without any preliminary declaration or proposal was seen in an earlier day as an insult and an assault.
Abigail wrote: "You gotta write that version, Elliot!"Well, Abigail, Carol, Tadiana, et al. - you may hug yourselves. You have driven me to it - the first part of Chapter 1 of "The Brown Girl: or, the Even Quieter Gentleman" is drafted!
Excellent! Hope you’ll keep us posted.
Abigail wrote: "Excellent! Hope you’ll keep us posted."I will - in fact, I will post it...somewhere...as soon as Chapter 1 is finished. I'd be right chuffed to have your opinion of it! : )
Finally finished my reread last night—disappointing! A three-star read for me, one of my lowest GH rankings. Some of the characters I wanted to see much more of (e.g., the Morvilles senior); others could have been incorporated into the plot but weren’t (the chaplain, Mr. Warboys); and, as others have remarked above, little romance and unconvincing mystery!My complete review is here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Good review Abigail.I'm still trying to figure out why making a sympathetic character the villain didn't work in this book, yet it worked in (view spoiler) Possibly because their was a consequence for the other villain?
& how do you pronounce the name Gervase? in my head,it is Grr-vayze.
In my head it is Jur-vase, not Jair-vase, but I could be wrong! You're right, Carol - in The Other Book the sympathetic villain works for me, in QG not at all. I do wonder why that was! (Actually, the only Rosemary Rogers book I ever liked, "The Wildest Heart", does the best GH-inspired turn on the sympathetic villain I've ever seen another author do!)
Maybe the villain doesn’t work here because his motive is not terribly strong. Theo is portrayed as someone with simple tastes—we see no sign of “champagne dreams”—so what would motivate him to such extreme action? It’s not as if he was about to be banished from the estates he loved; it’s not as if the earl showed any signs of stripping away his decision-making powers. The pronunciation I’ve always heard is jer-VACE.
Abigail wrote: "Maybe the villain doesn’t work here because his motive is not terribly strong. Theo is portrayed as someone with simple tastes—we see no sign of “champagne dreams”—so what would motivate him to suc..."I think you have nailed it, Abigail - now, if it had come out that there was a lot of money gone missing, or if Gervase had been making noises about sending Theo off to Jamaica earlier, to whip that property into shape, say...that might have been the spot for a pathological attachment to Stanyon to come out. And if Theo's doing what he's doing to get Marianne, then her engagement to Lucius knocks *that* motivation on the head. You're right - he's just not given a very strong motive at all.
Abigail wrote: "Maybe the villain doesn’t work here because his motive is not terribly strong. Theo is portrayed as someone with simple tastes—we see no sign of “champagne dreams”—so what would motivate him to suc..."I would think so Marianne's parents would see him as a good catch.
But a reckless move when Marianne hadn't shown any interest in him & was about to have a London season.
Abigail wrote: "Maybe the villain doesn’t work here because his motive is not terribly strong. Theo is portrayed as someone with simple tastes—we see no sign of “champagne dreams”—so what would motivate him to suc..."He doesn't show signs of what he wants because he doesn't want to draw suspicion on himself.
I'm surprised at how many people don't think this one is funny, I think it's hilarious.
The quiet dependable character, one whom readers may even wish another character would emulate, who turns out to be a murderer or a would-be one has ceased to surprise me! I wouldn't call TQG hilarious, but definitely amusing! The night before last, we stopped at the passage in which Martin slips into Gervase's sickroom via the secret stair--literally pops out of the woodwork! Then last night we finally met Drusilla's parents. Of COURSE TQG is funny!
There are parts that are very funny. I love Barny's line about if Martin had a tail he would lash it. (I've actually put it up as a quote on GR) In one line that gives you Martin's character. Brilliant writing!
It's not perhaps as obviously funny as some of the others but there was definitely humour and some very funny lines.I found Theo believable, he loved the estate and didn't think Gervase did, which was at least partly true. He hid it well but he was always there to point suspicion at Martin... he didn't do it out of hatred of them I think but a cold decision that they had to go.
Good point about Theo, Louise! Incidentally, on this second reading, I found the dialogue in which Theo idly elicits from Gervase where he's going, when he expects to be back, and where Martin is in the meantime, almost chilling! It reminds one of the first part of Act III Scene 1, of Macbeth!
Yes, it's on the re-read that you see how Theo knows everyone's movemenst, and how he tries to poison Gervase against Martin right away and to exacerbate every point of irritation between them. Martin plays into his hands with the duelling, but Theo really causes the bridge problem by making sure to take him that way -- if Gervase had been any later, the bridge would have been guarded by the boy with the flag.
It's true, it's probably set up a little better than I really was giving it credit for...*procedurally*, Theo is acting like a great villain. It's just that as Abigail pointed out, his motivation doesn't seem particularly strong, so I would probably stand there like an idiot and let him kill me, because I'd still be going, "I don't believe it". ; )
Elliot wrote: "It's true, it's probably set up a little better than I really was giving it credit for...*procedurally*, Theo is acting like a great villain. It's just that as Abigail pointed out, his motivation d..."I'm not disagreeing with your hypothesis that Theo's motivation isn't very clear from the book. I tend to agree.
I think it started because he was crazy about Marianne, and even after she fell for Lucy he still felt "it's not fair, it could have been me if I were the Earl". I agree with Louise that he probably thought he truly loved the estate more than Gervase, and he certainly felt he deserved it more. The old Earl's will probably didn't help, leaving all the unentailed property to Martin and nothing to him, but even if he'd have been left an estate of his own he'd probably have thought it wasn't enough.
HJ wrote: "Yes, it's on the re-read that you see how Theo knows everyone's movemenst, and how he tries to poison Gervase against Martin right away and to exacerbate every point of irritation between them. Mar..."See, this is why I really need to read this book again sometime. I didn't think there were any real hints that Theo was Up to No Good, and if they're there and I just missed them on first read, I would rate this book a lot higher.
Tadiana, they aren't hints which any normal reader would pick up because the book is written according to mystery writing convention: all the information is there (so the author isn't cheating the reader) but the emphasis is placed elsewhere so that the reader is misled and thinks someone else is to blame.I do feel that this book should be considered a mystery with a bit of romance, rather than vice versa.
HJ wrote: "Elliot wrote: "It's true, it's probably set up a little better than I really was giving it credit for...*procedurally*, Theo is acting like a great villain. It's just that as Abigail pointed out, h..."But then there's the scene where Gervase explicitly says, "you was robbed, let me do something about it," and Theo says, "no, no, I'm glad your dad didn't leave me anything more, I wasn't expecting it, and the estate has been broken up enough"...which is either Double-Deep-Dyed Misdirection, or...what? Masochism? If he's thinking he's going to put Gervase out of the way from the get-go, then all the land would be coming back to him anyway...now my head hurts.
HJ wrote: "I do feel that this book should be considered a mystery with a bit of romance, rather than vice versa."I completely agree with that. I approached this as a mystery (and I'm glad I did) but I still didn't see any hints about Theo. But then I had firmly put him in the "Friend" category almost from the start, and I should have been more suspicious and watchful.
I didn't ever seriously suspect Martin was at fault -- that answer was just far too easy -- but I did spend a long time trying to figure out who else could be a suspect (Dowager? No. Martin's servant? Maybe ... no, not a big enough character) until I basically landed on Theo by process of elimination, shortly before the end. But my conclusion was based on mystery literary conventions, not on clues.
"Cui bono" (who benefits)? is always a good question to ask about a mystery plot.
Margaret wrote: ""Cui bono" (who benefits)? is always a good question to ask about a mystery plot."But that's another reason why this story is a clever mystery; Theo does not obviously and immediately benefit, while Martin is the one who does.
HJ wrote: "Margaret wrote: ""Cui bono" (who benefits)? is always a good question to ask about a mystery plot."But that's another reason why this story is a clever mystery; Theo does not obviously and immedi..."
Exactly - and Theo manipulates Martin and his hot-headed, impulsive reputation masterfully. Mysteries are my favorite genre and I read more of those books than any other, so Martin was pretty obvious from early on, by process of elimination as Tadiana said, but also because his history made him an obvious choice. He also made comments throughout the book to Gervase about Marianne or his lack of inheritance that showed his bitterness and frustration about his status.
Louise Sparrow wrote: "It's not perhaps as obviously funny as some of the others but there was definitely humour and some very funny lines.I found Theo believable, he loved the estate and didn't think Gervase did, whic..."
after many re-readings, this sums up what I believe. it is funny and Theo really didn't want the estate cut up, he wanted it ALL
The thing about Theo that I find more chilling than his attempts to kill Gervase is his manipulation to frame Martin for the murder. Think how terrible that would have been if he had succeeded!BTW, please overlook any misspellings of proper names in my posts! Remember, I've been reading it this time on audio.
MaryC wrote: "The thing about Theo that I find more chilling than his attempts to kill Gervase is his manipulation to frame Martin for the murder. Think how terrible that would have been if he had succeeded!BT..."
And Theo wouldn't have been worried about scandal - he was quite happy to sendMartin to the gallows!
Yes, that's what makes him such a great bitter villain, the one who coldly sits like a spider in the middle of his web, subtly pulling strings here and there beneath anyone's notice, silently nursing his grievances - and then he pounces! Or would've if Gervase hadn't out-maneuvered him. Well done, I say as an ardent mystery buff - which is why I love her mysteries even more, same witty, hilarious dialogue and quirky characters with a great puzzle - my cup runneth over!
MaryC wrote: "Elza wrote: "Here's something I'm pondering. To whom does the title refer? Theo, or Gervase, or both?"The same thought occurred to me on this reading. I remember the outcome but am remaining quie..."
Erm.... This IS the spoilers thread!!
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I've already started... ; )