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The Quiet Gentleman Group Read December 2015 Chapters 1-11
message 51:
by
Andrea AKA Catsos Person
(new)
Dec 04, 2015 05:34PM
Tadiana, the theory that Clowne may have been planned as a Mr Collins-type, then dropped by GH makes sense.
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☆ Ｃａｒｏｌ ☆ wrote: "I am enjoying this reread but...Usually when I read one of the lighthearted GH books I bolt through the read, snarling at anyone foolish enough to try to talk to me. This one 2 days in & I'm not ..."
I'm glad I'm not the only one - I put the book down last night and still haven't picked it up again, it's just not pulling me in so far. I gave it four stars the first time I read it though, so I am cautiously optimistic...
For me it got better the further I got into it.
Well, as I said in a previous post, this is my second read.This time I'm enjoying Gervase and Drucilla.
I hopeful that will happen for me, Tadiana!
I think it's pretty ironic how the dowager makes a point of how little Gervase looks like a Frant, considering how lucky for her it is that he doesn't take after his father. The Frants seem to have a tendency to be self-centered. If Gervase behaved like the other Frants he would have kicked his stepmother and half brother out to fend for themselves (which they are perfectly capable of doing, considering their inheritance)in the first chapter. Instead he allows them to go on living in the place they've thought of as home, while making it obvious there's only so much crap he will take. They initially seem to think he's a wimp because he doesn't throw tantrums and make scenes like Martin. It sounds to me like his father was probably cut from the same cloth, but maybe had a little more self control.
Martin certainly is smooth with the ladies! NOT!Oh well, I guess he's just too young.
Plus it's never occurred to him that he doesn't automatically get whatever he wants. The only check he ever seems to have suffered is that his older brother didn't conveniently die in battle.
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Martin certainly is smooth with the ladies! NOT!Oh well, I guess he's just too young."
Exactly - as his friend Warboys describes Martin's behavior toward Marianne and all the young male attention she receives, "Y'know, old fellow, if you had a tail, damme if you wouldn't lash it!" Just what every girl wants...
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Oh dear Carol! That is a bad sign if counter to your modus operandi for reading GHs books!I'm up to ch 7. Martin is a terrible brat! His parents did him no favors spoiling him so!
If I had to c..."
martin is terribly spoilt, but perhaps can't entrely be blamed for it, since his parents brought him up so badly. He does show signs of being able to improve. I think myself that the darracott grandfather is worse than Vincent, it was horrible of him to cast his son off for marrying a mill owner's daughter, and he is nasty to Hugo.
Louise wrote: " I think myself that the darracott grandfather is worse than Vincent, it was horrible of him to cast his son off for marrying a mill owner's daughter, and he is nasty to Hugo."True, but Lord Darracott does seem to see himself in a Pygmalion/'Enry 'Iggins role, trying to make the best of things in his mean-tongued way. And don't you love it when he realizes that the "weaver's brat" could probably buy and sell the whole Darracott estate and scarcely notice? "The stone that the builders rejected . . . ." >:)
P. S. Thanks for the typeface instructions, everyone! See, they worked!
Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "For me it got better the further I got into it."I just started chapter 17 last night, and I am definitely enjoying the book more; I don't think it will ever be a favorite but I am really enjoying Drusilla and Gervase, and getting a very strong Lady Catherine de Bourgh vibe from the Dowager - I still want to kick Martin, though...
Martin is horrid.Just what kind of husband did he fancy he would be?
I know! I really was shocked for poor Marianne's sake, minding her own business in her own greenhouse, singing along and digging among her bulbs, and along comes her old pal to maul her among the mulch! If he tried that on an American college campus today he'd be facing assault charges, for heaven's sake - he really is a stinker, and as amusing a character as the Dowager is, his parents did him a great disservice raising him to be such a selfish, out-of-control young man.
I just shudder when I think of Martin married to that lovely, sweet Marianne. He's such a nasty piece of work.
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Martin is horrid.Just what kind of husband did he fancy he would be?"
An immature one?
A cruel husband and a terror!
Yes, very likely! Ann Landers once wrote, "No man treats his wife better than he treated his girl friend," and although I don't think she was 100% right, that advice is a good rule of thumb.
Dear Ann Landers. Such a wise woman.
Oh lovely, I never missed her column in the Chicago Sun-Times growing up - a wise woman indeed...
Martin doesn't come across to me as nasty or cruel (or at least, no more cruel than the general run of men of his time and class who went in for blood sports like boxing and cock-fighting). Immature, yes, far too used to having his own way, and definitely with what we might call anger management issues, but I don't see any evidence of potential domestic abuse. A quick glance back at the scenes with Marianne shows that the sum total of his "assault" is holding her hands tightly, attempting to kiss her, and subjecting her to a lot of impassioned verbiage.
Margaret wrote: "Martin doesn't come across to me as nasty or cruel (or at least, no more cruel than the general run of men of his time and class who went in for blood sports like boxing and cock-fighting). Immatur..."i agree. He's immature, spoilt, and thoughtless, but not cruel.
I'm a little surprised how far the view of Martin has strayed from what is actually written in the book. I think there's been a degree of over-interpretation based on today rather than then. His actions were shocking to Marianne because she was completely naive and inexperienced, and his intentions were absolutely honourable -- he was proposing marriage to her. As Margaret says, he was holding her hands and attempting to kiss her. Of course he should have stopped when she asked him to, but he genuinely believed that she felt the same way about him as he did about her, and any gently-nurtured girl of the time might demur at being kissed.He was actually gentler than most of Heyer's heroes, who tend to crush the heroines in their embrace and ruthlessly kiss them!!
HJ wrote: "I'm a little surprised how far the view of Martin has strayed from what is actually written in the book. I think there's been a degree of over-interpretation based on today rather than then. His ac..."Oh, I absolutely concede I'm comparing him (with tongue firmly planted in cheek) to modern standards - a modern teenaged girl would've either flattened him for trying to touch her when she didn't want to be touched, or friend-zoned him, which I have it on the authority of my college-aged son is much the crueler fate...
I mostly get tired of Martin's tantrums and feel his parents did him no favors raising him to think he is the center of the universe - and as with most bratty, indulged children, he faces a disappointing and unhappy future if he doesn't grow out of it! I look forward to finishing the book to see if I agree with Tadiana at the end.
Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "Good point, HJ. Martin is spoiled, hotheaded and immature, but [spoilers removed]."(view spoiler) I see him as spoilt rather than vicious.
He's both spoilt and has a very nasty temper.He's a loose cannon.
I found Martin a hard character to love - and I'm probably as guilty as any of reading more into his actions than GH intended. Then again, GH has set him up as pretty hard to love.(view spoiler)
Here's a question for all you learned ladies and gents...what would have been the "hot" card game during the Regency - that All the Young Dudes would have been playing? Whist seems portrayed as being a bit more fuddy-duddy, as evidenced by the Dowager's saying that "no doubt St Erth would enjoy a rubber of whist", and St Erth himself appearing to think otherwise. Now, it could just be that it's because the Dowager is suggesting it...Also, just thought of something - St Erth is n't married, so why is the Dowager Countess the "Dowager"? Wouldn't she just be The Countess?
Elliot wrote: "Here's a question for all you learned ladies and gents...what would have been the "hot" card game during the Regency - that All the Young Dudes would have been playing? Whist seems portrayed as bei..."Other card games I've seen mentioned are Piquet, Loo, and Vingt-et-Un.
The Countess is a widow, and a widowed titled lady was a Dowager.
Or could it be the other way around--that whist was something new and racy, like long trousers and the waltz, and that Gervase was letting his stepmother know that there was nothing flashy or questionable about him?I think the widow of a peer is referred to as the dowager even if the new holder is unmarried. I seem to remember that, in Josephine Tey's The Singing Sands, the young widow of Lord Something rather laughs at being referred to that way when her son, the new Lord Something, is just a little boy. And doesn't the mother in False Colours remarry partly to shed that aging title? Of course, Gervase's stepmother perfectly personifies the stereotyped image called up by that word!
Louise wrote: "Elliot wrote: "Here's a question for all you learned ladies and gents...what would have been the "hot" card game during the Regency - that All the Young Dudes would have been playing? Whist seems p..."see, that's what's confusing me...apparently, according to Wikipedia anyway, the widow of a titled peer got to be "the Countess" or "the Duchess" or whatever so long as the inheriting peer was unmarried...but that if the new peer *was* married,then the widow became the "Dowager" Countess, Duchess...
Wikipedia is often right, but it seems that it might be awkward for someone to learn that the Duke and Duchess of this or that are son and mother rather than husband and wife. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that mail to a widowed peeress should be addressed to "Jane, Countess of ____," whereas mail to the wife of the current earl would be addressed to "The Countess of ____." Does anyone have a DeBrett handy?Anyway, surely the word "dowager" perfectly fits that aquiline featured, grey-haired, purple-clad, opinionated lady!
BTW, has anyone else here ever encountered the practice of calling a widow with a married son "Madam [last name]" instead of "Mrs."?
MaryC wrote: BTW, has anyone else here ever encountered the practice of calling a widow with a married son "Madam [last name]" instead of "Mrs."? Never heard of that one. My understanding was that once you married a man, his name was yours for life -- even after his death, you remain "Mrs. John Smith."
Of course, I'm also of the opinion that you are Mrs. John Smith (since you are married to John) or you are Jane Smith (assuming you legally changed your last name) but you are not Mrs. Jane Smith (since you didn't marry Jane Smith!).
Elza wrote: "My understanding was that once you married a man, his name was yours for life -- even after his death, you remain "Mrs. John Smith." Of course, I'm also of the opinion that you are Mrs. John Smith (since you are married to John) or you are Jane Smith (assuming you legally changed your last name) but you are not Mrs. Jane Smith (since you didn't marry Jane Smith!).
.."
I agree !!!
Which is why it always annoys me when I read any Regency Romances where the married ladies attach the husbands surname to their own maiden name - I believe American authors are the worst culprits here. It wasn't the way married ladies were referred to - I remember my grandparents getting letters addressed to Mr & Mrs John W.
Jay-me (Janet) wrote: "Which is why it always annoys me when I read any Regency Romances where the married ladies attach the husbands surname to their own maiden name - I believe American authors are the worst culprits here. It wasn't the way married ladies were referred to - I remember my grandparents getting letters addressed to Mr & Mrs John W. ..."I agree! This is a relatively modern and American practice and isn't done routinely (or even commonly) here in England even now, let alone in the Regency!
Mod
I used to use Debrett quite a bit when I was a reference librarian and I seem to remember that "Jane, Countess of ~" was the style proper to a divorced aristocrat (cf 'The Princess of Wales' becoming 'Diana, Princess of Wales'); but when there are two dowagers, as when a peer's grandmother is still alive as well as his mother, then the second one uses the 'first name' style to distinguish her from her mother-in-law.
Mod
In Regency times I gather even 'Mr' and 'Mrs' were subject to a hierarchy. In Persuasion for example, the head of the family are 'Mr & Mrs Musgrove', while the son and his wife are 'Mrs & Mrs Charles Musgrove'; and in Mansfield Park nasty Miss Crawford revels in Edmund being temporarily granted the title 'Mr Bertram' in the absence of his older brother, rather than his usual 'Mr Edmund Bertram'.
Mod
I've certainly come across 'Madam [Surname]' in an C18th context, possibly even C17th, though I hadn't worked out that that was the reason for it. I don't know how widespread it was.
Mod
That's something that shifts around over the centuries: up until the early C18th the title 'Mrs' with her own forename was usual for both single and married women; and nowadays women who don't regard themselves as a mere extension of their husband use at least their own forename. It's a matter of custom that has a lot to do with the relative status of women, and customs change.
Elza wrote: "My understanding was that you are Mrs. John Smith (since you are married to John) or you are Jane Smith (assuming you legally changed your last name) but you are not Mrs. Jane Smith (since you didn't marry Jane Smith!)."..."Absolutely! "Mrs." followed by a woman's first name makes me cringe! If a married or formerly married woman wants to use her first name, she can be "Ms."
As for "Madam," in Louisa May Alcott's An Old Fashioned Girl, when Polly meets the family of her friend Fanny Shaw, the author refers to Fanny's parents as Mr. and Mrs. Shaw and to her grandmother as Madam Shaw. The issue of how someone addressed the envelope when writing to Fanny's grandmother never came up.
☆ Ｃａｒｏｌ ☆ wrote: "Yay! Group Read time again!So how many times have you read this
title?
I read it long, long ago, and then twice or three times in October in anticipation of our group read.
What format are you reading it in?
audiobook (Audible narrated by Cornelius Garrett)
Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "I just read a review on Austenprose that makes an interesting suggestion: Heyer may have been planning to model Mr. Clowne on Mr. Collins, Lady Catherine's toady, but gave up on that plan. That mak..."I, too, see a lot of Austen similarities in this novel.
--Mr. Clowne/Mr. Collins prostrating themselves before the dowager/Lady Catherine (in "Pride and Prejudice")
--Marianne the romantic (like Marianne Dashwood, the romantic in "Sense and Sensibility")
--How St Erth finagles to play Speculation with the dowager and Marianne, and how he cheats himself to allow Marianne to win is right out of "Mansfield Park" where Mr. Crawford plays with Lady Bertram and Fanny
--the backwards hint for Marianne to play with Lady Grampound's bratty children is like the hint for Miss Lucy Steele to finish quilling the box for the spoiled child.
Lori wrote: "the backwards hint for Marianne to play with Lady Grampound's bratty children is like the hint for Miss Lucy Steele to finish quilling the box for the spoiled child."Or Anne Elliot having to play with her sister's rambunctious children in "Persuasion" --
Mod
What is it that Arabella's brother is disastrously lured into playing? Do we know?
Jenny wrote: "MaryC wrote: "Or could it be the other way around--that whist was something new and racy..." There were different kinds of whist, I think. Hugo Darracott (Unknown Ajax) is relieved at not having to..."Bertram plays hazard in the gaming-hell.
"Never having indulged in any game more dashing than whist, Bertram spent some time in looking-on, but when he thought he had mastered the rules governing hazard, he ventured to join that table, armed with a modest rouleau."
Whist was considered the queen of games in polite circles. Old ladies played whist with whomever they could rope into playing with them. It was the game of Bridge of its day.
Later in the book, Bertram loses the 600 pounds playing Faro. That game has a table game where you place chips next to cards. Then the dealer turns up cards from a second pack.
Here's the address of a layout of a faro game.
http://www.desertusa.com/desert-activ...
Absolutely! "Mrs." followed by a woman's first name makes me cringe! If a married or formerly married woman wants to use her first name, she can be "Ms."Only when used in a culture where that wasn't done - without explanation. People can be called what they wish. It's interesting that in the U.S., in the South someone is likely to be "Miss Anne", even if married, but in most of the country would be "Miss Smith", or "Mrs. Smith".
Even with women keeping their family name, their children generally take their fathers' names (at least if their parents were married). (My nephew is a Brazee, even though my brother's widow kept her family name).
Lori wrote: "Jenny wrote: "MaryC wrote: "Or could it be the other way around--that whist was something new and racy..." There were different kinds of whist, I think. Hugo Darracott (Unknown Ajax) is relieved at..."While whist was the bridge of the day - it involved more luck, as the trump suit was determined randomly. I've never been one who appreciate games of chance (although I love contract bridge). But Heyer's aristocrats seemed to prefer chance. I kind of think since their whole lives were based upon accident of birth instead of industry, this makes sense.
Elza wrote: "Lori wrote: "the backwards hint for Marianne to play with Lady Grampound's bratty children is like the hint for Miss Lucy Steele to finish quilling the box for the spoiled child."Or Anne Elliot h..."
Good point. Climbing all over her.
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