Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion
Introductions / Other Topics
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After We've Found Time Again
I knew you would be there to represent those of us lost in the wilderness! I read the nice article in the NYT's and already went to the site.
Dave wrote: "Thanks! All the quotes are in french in the Narrative Techniques book. I am getting a lot out of the book with just a sense of what is quoted but I would like to translate the quotes. I'm going to ..."Yes, academics would never think about translating Proust. I will look into Babylon.
Now, to the World Series...to root for the American League. ;)
Nice pic. Yes, I could have my bed set up over there by those sunny windows and Francois could bring me books and tea while I kept a diligent eye on the passing NY vegetable trade.
Dave wrote: "I am watching those videos now Marcelita, very informative.Have you read "Proust's Literary Techniques"? I'm very excited about it. First half covers writing before La Recherche with a chapter ea..."
Found...regarding BG Rogers.
http://translate.google.com/translate...
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/ncf/summ...
Thank you, I overlooked that he had contributed to the Cambridge Companion. What he has to say about the narrator makes more sense to me than anything else I have read so far. My copy of his techniques book came from a used book seller in Australia. It was a library copy in the University of Sydney Windsor library. It has the checkout form in the back and was checked out from 1971-1975 when I was in college. Its a decent copy but the spine is brittle with age. I find little details like that very "intimate" about used books.
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Thanks Renato, I haven't tried Bing but Babylon has been useful to me for a long time. My second language is Spanish which I read and hear much better than I speak. But I translate letters to my niece in Mexico on Babylon and it requires little manual intervention.My concern with the quotes from this book are that, although I have a French keyboard that I can select. I don't know how to put in accents, graves (sp?) and the little symbol that looks like a hat. I don't know how that affects the translation.
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Yes, on either. If I can cut foreign language text from a book electronically, Babylon does a very credible job of translation. Back when I played online games I interacted with players all over the world by typing out what I wanted to say, translating, then pasting the results in the chat box. Japanese, Chinese (Manderin or Cantonese), Farsi, Urdu, Arabic, Turkish, Polish, Finnish, Italian, French, Dutch, Spanish and Portugese were some of the languages I remember chatting in. The other players were astonished.
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Is that what you mean?
Renato wrote: "On the iPad I believe you can press and hold the letter you want to accentuate and the options will appear, like this:Is that what you mean?"
I remember when I discovered the "holding and choosing" trick, I sent out a virtual hug to all those brilliant programmers.
Now, I am waiting for the ultimate app, which listens to a variety of French voices and translates it into English text.
There are programs that use your voice, but I want to listen to French radio, the French lectures I taped, etc.
With Siri technology, it should be soon...maybe in the next decade?
Thanks for the link Marcelita, I've been following that on the Yahoo Group.Translation software has come a long way since '95 when I bought expensive software to send letters for reservations to a bunch of B&B type places in the Loire Valley, Brittany, and Normandy. I'm sure the French was horrible, but they all had our room waiting when we got there.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04lpxj2"
Thanks Marcelita, I've just listened to it. It's interesting to hear of of others' experiences of their voyage through ISOLT.
It was an interesting program. And it touched on some points we have discussed her. But it does contain spoilers. I found it encouraging to my obsessive reading and follow-up that I found myself disagreeing with some points that these heavy hitters made. If I've gotten to the point where I sometimes stay with my own opinion (and know why) rather than following every opinion I hear or read, I must be getting somewhat organized. Now I just need to make sure I keep an open mind and don't let my opinions get set in stone.
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Yes, I was pleased that we'd covered some of the issues they were discussing. I was glad they mentioned the temporary confusion that the reader feels when reading ISOLT - at least they'd experienced it as well and it's not just us!
I think someone on the programme mentioned that ISOLT was just as much about forgetting as remembering, which was something I hadn't really considered.
Yes, that was interesting. The panelists were well chosen to provide diverse perspective: A successful novelist, a psychoanalyst, and an editor/academic. The novelist and the psychoanalyst particularly were in contrast and were sometimes at loggerheads. The novelist brought up, from her own experience, that a novelist often doesn't know where they are going with a work and end up somewhere else. No One brought up that Proust wrote the beginning and end when he started and filled in the middle over the years - that would indicate he knew where he was going. The point about his writing for a male audience I had not considered before, but think I agree with. They spoke a little about how sympathetic Albertine was and there was some disagreement. Well I found her sympathetic but could see their point. The excerpts that the actor read were well chosen.
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On reflection my "sympathy" for Albertine was seemed stronger than it was because I was so upset with the Narrator.
Yesterday, following a lead from the Rogers' book, I went to check out an example near the beginning of Swan's Way. I ended reading the whole Overture (Combray Part I) again. And again I was stunned and amazed at how much Proust packed into this section.
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I feel it is the "key" to the whole book - a key that will not unlock the book unless someone has read the whole book first. The generalized descriptions of the beginning I see - about a young man waiting for his mother to kiss him goodnight and the Madeleine tasting, are just so inadequate/incomplete if you have read the whole book. I'm planning to go back and reread from the beginning with you and whoever else joins us, but I hope you will indulge me in this section and go slow - there is just so much to be commented on about every page.I've seen "experts" make generalized comments that address the content of the Oveture, but (at least in English) there needs to be an "annotated" Proust that speaks to every reference and allusion made to other events, themes, characters, and motifs within the whole work. I've decoded some tentatively, but I know there are others I am still clueless about.
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What Proustian plans do others have for next year? Mine, at the moment, are to read some small books that I've got hanging around (Night at the Majestic, Proust's Library) and to start on the Carter bio maybe in January/February. If everyone's up for reading Combray early in the year I'm willing to go along with it, though I'd prefer to leave it until after the bio. Nothing's set in stone though so I'm open for changes/compromise.
I've ordered three more books. All are cheap used on Amazon.1. Reading Proust: In Search of Wolf Fish (Theory and History of Literature) by Maria Paganini
2. The Mottled Sceen: Reading Proust Visually by Meike Bal
3. Allegories in Reading: Figural Language in Rousseau, Nietzsche, Rilke and Proust by Paul de Man
I read Vincent Descombes book "Proust: Philosophy of the Novel"
I didn't agree with his main point. I found Lundy's points about philosophy more convincing. Not unexpectedly I guess, my opinions on Proust's work as well as opinions about the Proust "aftermarket" have and will continue to evolve. At this point I'm generally finding more insight in the books from the 60's and 70's. Beyond references and guides, more recent books are more abstract in their analysis. That's ok if there is an underlying understanding of the content and the Narratology of the novel in both authors and the readers.
Jonathan wrote: "I must admit I'm quite keen to re-read the Combray section again once I've finished the whole book as I'm sure I've read that this section is supposed to contain all the characters and topics of th..."I'm available to stick with Proust stuff as long as someone want to read/ comment. In retrospect reading Proust the first time was a marathon for me. I was satisfied to get my certificate of completion. As was apparent, I soon discovered the reward of rereading. But my opinion has changed, rather than a marathon, rereading is very different, an evening walk in the park. I can pick up the book and open anywhere (as someone noted on the BBC program) and become immediately engrossed. For me rereading has become a lifetime "timeout". The only risk is I'll get fascinated as I did yesterday. I do believe that the First Part of Combray and the very end of Swann's Way are very important to understanding. The rest can be read at leisure.
Whatever outside reading is decided on I'll follow along and comment as I may. I recommend reading the first and last of Swann's Way closely and having a discussion and then figuring out reading/rereading preferences and priorities.
Renato wrote: "That's one of the sections I'm most eager to re-read as in the beginning I had a hard time with his style and to understand his long sentences."The beginning is like a crash course in style and long sentences. By volume VI, if you're like me, you're already doing graduate studies in his style. Its remarkable to me that he wrote for so many years without any notable change in style.
Thats a major point of Rogers' book, all of his earlier writing can be seen as experiments in style and form as he struggled to express in writing what he had to say. Ultimately, he invented his own form and techniques to express his message. This alone would have placed him as a giant in the history of literature. We can never know whether the profundity of his content would ever have been perceived outside the original artistry of the structure he created to showcase it.
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I want to read the Carter bio. We can begin at anytime. And I really want to read those books mentioned here: The Cambridge Introduction and Companion, Shattuck's and Landy's books as well.
Excluding the bio, would be better to read those before a re-read? Or after?
Renato wrote: "I still don't know what I'll do next year to be honest. My desire is to re-read everything immediately, but I don't want it to become a burden. I want to enjoy and appreciate it, not just be done w..."The Moss book is not available to you Renato? Its still my top pick for post reread. Of those you mentioned I'd say look over Shattuck. But without wanting to be an egoist, you have me who has been reading all these books for months. These are only my opinions, but I can make suggestions, ask leading questions, and give you "my" answer if something doesn't click. Then, after we talk about the first and last of Swan's Way, you can read the other books as you are inclined.
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And yes, I count on your help for sure! I just got interested in those as you listed them as very helpful.
I'm just following the Golden Rule. It's taken me months or reading references and bumbling around to get to where I am. I would have much rather had someone just tell me the basics. Frankly, I have seen no reference, blog or video that gives a concise primer in reading for understanding. Perhaps because I still hold strongly to the opinion I formed when I started rereading - you can only understand Proust if you have "experienced" the whole novel first and return to the beginning. I thought understanding required a complete reread, now I think selections of Swann's Way will do the job. After that, as so many readers find, rereading is a joy, not a "to do".
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Oh, I meant to mention, I read the Modern Library Edition yesterday. I still can't say I have much preference for translation (other than "no translation" is best) but I do like Penguin best for the footnotes.
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I think after trying both I prefer the MKE translation overall BUT occasionally the Penguin does just read better and the notes, synopsis etc. are a lot better; this is why I finally decided on reading the MKE but using a library Penguin copy for the notes etc. Also sometimes, if I re-read bits I just read the Penguin version for a bit of variety.
Renato wrote: "It's not available on amazon.com.br. I'll search for it better later.And yes, I count on your help for sure! I just got interested in those as you listed them as very helpful."
Moss' book is available on Amazon.com as Kindle for $5.00 and used for less than $10.00. I have the edition with Damion Searles' introduction which is also good.
Dave wrote: "I'm just following the Golden Rule. It's taken me months or reading references and bumbling around to get to where I am. I would have much rather had someone just tell me the basics. Frankly, I have seen no reference, blog or video that gives a concise primer in reading for understanding."
Have you considered Carter's Online Course? I can type for an hour...praising it.
http://www.proust-ink.com/courseinfo/
The lectures are insightful, and the accompanying "file cabinets" are packed with interesting material.
The best part, for my continual curiosity, are the live webcams. Just send Bill a question and he will answer it! I usually send mine in a week or so before, but you can also ask a question in "real time." To listen to Carter riff on a question is invaluable to your understanding of the novel.
To date, there have been around 30 webcams, which are available to subscribers. You can see the corresponding questions, but the answers go further than imagined. It's rather like a conversation, as Bill just draws on all his knowledge...and just shares great tales.
Here is a favorite:
Carter was the producer for the documentary, "Marcel Proust: A Writer’s Life’"
http://stonelanternfilms.org/proust.html
(Clip with Shelby Foote, Iris Murdoch, and Roger Shattuck: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_B99TZb... )
One day, the consultants/advisors (Philip Kolb, Elayne Dezon-Jones, Anne Borrel, and J Theodore Johnson Jr.) were sitting around a lunch table. Each revealed who they believed was the most important character. Bill told us that the vote was unanimous...EXCEPT for his!
Carter also shared that the notebooks by "Proust's" bedside table are the REAL ones. The BnF brought them over for the filming.
Thank you Marcelita! As always, you generously share your extensive knowledge of all things Proustian. I will follow these links as I do the others, but the backlog of reviewing all the material you have shared in the last 10 months is pretty large and growing larger despite my best efforts to see/ read it all.My problem is that after only three months of standing under the Proustian commentary firehose, I need to have ways to "work through" what I have been exposed to. To some degree I can "think through" and form opinions, but my life experience has taught me the there is no substitute for in-person, shooting-the-breeze bull sessions to sort out what I think. Expert opinion is to be valued but expert opinion overlaps, repeats, and contradicts. And is unavailable unless I hold a Proustian A-Lister captive and promise them a Rolls Royce or Yacht if they will only exclusively talk to me about Proust.
As Proust suggests, I am trying to use his book to be a reader of myself. The experts can't help me there.
Since I can't have all-night, in-person bull sessions, our small group here suits my purpose. We share our views and scratch our heads in perplexity at some things, but we move forward in our understanding of the book and perhaps of ourselves.
Dave wrote: "Thank you Marcelita! As always, you generously share your extensive knowledge of all things Proustian. I will follow these links as I do the others, but the backlog of reviewing all the material yo..."Yes, I understand completely.
After everyone finishes novel, we can play their game and choose the most important character. I will share the advisors' choice and then Bill's.
Thanks, that will be fun! I will bide my time, but I already made my choice - I had to be strong, but I did not choose Aunt Leonie!Following up on your tip about Professor Carter answering email questions, I considered my first question. In preparation of my question, I spent a good part of the day analyzing the first page of "Swann's Way." My comments on the five sentences on the first page are 1100 words long. Now I have drafted my first email to Professor Carter:
Dear Professor Carter, Marcela Swan told me that you answer question's about Proust and his book by email. Below are my thoughts on the first page of "Swann's Way." My first question is: What are your thoughts on my thoughts? Please be specific in responding. Thank you so much! David
PS I will send page two thoughts tomorrow. I don't think I will have time to analyze more than five pages a week to send to you. I hope you won't think me a Proustian slacker!
Dave wrote: "Thanks, that will be fun! I will bide my time, but I already made my choice - I had to be strong, but I did not choose Aunt Leonie!Following up on your tip about Professor Carter answering email ..."
Oh, Dave, you always seem to bring out my dimples.
I can only imagine Carter's email inbox, if that were true!
He would never have a second to continue his annotations of Moncrieff for Yale University Press.
Still, for us subscribers via the webcams, your "What are your thoughts on my thoughts?" is not far-fetched. I may have even asked that exact question a time or three. ;)
On the "most important character" game, I have my own choice, a guess on what the panelists collectively guess, and a guess on Professor Carter's choice. Do the panelists explain their choices?I certainly wouldn't want to disrupt Professor Carter's Annotations for Yale. But I also don't mind him quoting me in his annotations. I sure he would be thrilled to strengthen his annotations by citing my own thoughts. That just the kind of sharing guy that I am!
Uh Oh Marcelita, now you have gotten me in trouble. I opened an account with Abe Books. I applied for the "Marcelita" Discount on "all things Proustian."
Dave wrote: "Uh Oh Marcelita, now you have gotten me in trouble. I opened an account with Abe Books. I applied for the "Marcelita" Discount on "all things Proustian.""Dave~here are my latest "discounts."
Volume 1
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookD...
Volume 2
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookD...
Volume 4
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookD...
Alas, the "Marcelita Discount" does not apply for every volume: Volume 3
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookD...
Was reading a blog by a Tom Hawk and couldn't help but smile. My husband says I live too much in the future...that I should be more "mindful."
Now, regarding the Veuve Clicquot...
From Tom Hawk:
"Proust's Way" has a lot of good stuff in it. It introduced me to the concept of "Soul Error" which Shattuck summarizes as "the incapacity to give full value or status to one's own life and experience." This is something that pervades Proust's work through his obsession with time's distorting powers.
"Man of imagination, you can find enjoyment only through regret or expectation; that is, in the past or the future." MP
Immersion in the present is almost impossible; but being drunk helps. "Exalted tipsiness annuls the discovery of time." Roger Shattuck
That must be why I drink too much once in a while. TH
http://www.thefader.com/2014/11/03/wh...?
Here are the references:
Proust's Way: A Field Guide to In Search of Lost Time by Roger Shattuck
Page 86
"Man of imagination, you can find enjoyment only through regret or expectation, that is, in the past or in the future." MP (JS 54).
http://books.google.com/books?id=kkTf...
French: "Homme d'imagination, vous pouvez trouver du plaisir que par regret ou attente; qui est, dans le passé ou le futur. " MP
"Jean Santeuil"
Marcel Proust
Page 54
http://books.google.com/books?id=mqcH...
And...changed somewhat here:
"Pleasures and Days and 'Memory' / Les Plaisirs et les Jours et 'Souvenir'"
Marcel Proust
Page 103
"As an imaginative man, you can find enjoyment only in regret or in expectation, that is, in the past or in the future." MP
http://books.google.com/books?id=o3hp...
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Renato wrote: ":-) that's the Proust way of life, Marcelita?"Alas, absolutely!
I remember getting my personal Transcendental Meditation mantra for $125 (très dear) in 1969. I still use it to this day and love its three-sound vibrations.
However, on days that my curiosity is running at 78RMP (RMP? Dave will understand.), living in the present and being "mindful" is impossible.
And on other days, as I become quiet and deep in my breathing, a "Eureka!" idea with burst forth.
Wonder? Is that one commonality with us Proustians? That we tend to "live" in the past or future, rather than in the present? Are we too curious?
Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014
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Yep. Opening day...
The second floor Marcel Proust Reading Room.
and last Friday with Matthew Weiner (Mad Men).
http://frenchculture.org/film-tv-and-...
It's a wonderful addition...very posh, very French, because like a Parisian café you can stay for hours!