Wurts: WoLaS- Warhost of Vastmark

[Helen, I·ᴍ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪʙʀᴀʀʏ]

This thread is to discuss this particular book of the series. To ensure no one gets spoiled, please hide any spoilers with a page/chapter check. That way you'll know if it's safe to click.

Eg chapter 5, p64 < spoiler > spoiler written here < /spoiler >

But don't include the gaps.

[Alissa]

Thank you Helen!

[Amy]

Indeed, thanks from me, too! Was getting ready to type up a few thoughts on this one.

Firstly (and not a spoiler): opening with Sethvir in the bath! I laughed. :D And then to go onto such serious stuff for the rest of the scene was really surprising.

I won't say any more than that, though, because I don't have my copy with me right now, so can't accurately post spoiler tags!

[Helen, I·ᴍ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪʙʀᴀʀʏ]

You're welcome. I keep thinking I'll have to reread these when it's finished. Read them twice already.

[Amy]

Ok, I'm up to a scene heading called 'Springtide', in the chapter Third Infamy, which my ereader says is on page 163. I can't guarantee that's correct in other versions, though, because I've got a rather strange version downloaded from my local library! I'm just going to put my entire thoughts so far, up to pg. 163, behind spoiler tags.

(view spoiler)[I always feel like the characters in these books are split into two categories, which change from chapter to chapter. Category one is 'people annoying me this time': namely Lysaer, Dakar and Talith. Category two is everyone else!

Lysaer is, I think, the worst offender, because he's so completely lacking in self-awareness regarding the curse. He comes SO CLOSE to seeing through it, as well, when he's in Ath's sanctuary, but his refusal to consider he might be wrong is infuriating.

Dakar, on the other hand, I just don't understand. His complete inability to see any redeeming features in Arithon seems to be every bit as blind as Lysaer's. They've spent enough time together now that you'd think Dakar might start to revise his opinion!

And Talith... Well, to be honest, her decision to leave Avenor was just plain stupid and selfish. I like how fearless she is, but for a woman so well versed in intrigue, you'd really think she'd be capable of seeing how she might be compromising Lysaer's position by putting herself in danger.

On the subject of 'everyone else', I think the scene between Arithon and Dalwyn outside the tent is one of my favourite things so far. I love how honest and straight-forward Arithon is: he makes it clear from the start that he's in love with someone else, but someone unattainable, thus giving Dalwyn full control of the situation. I get really fed up with fictional relationships where every aspect is dictated by the characters lying to each other, so this was a refreshing change!

Hmm, there's probably more, but I can't think of it right now, and this is getting really long. :D

Oh, lastly: I'm so glad Kharadmon's back. His snarkiness makes me laugh every time!

(hide spoiler)]

[Helen, I·ᴍ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪʙʀᴀʀʏ]

My recurring theme through most of the books was a desire to shake Lysaer.

[Alissa]

Hi Amy! Helen!

I see we are of a similar mind. I think Merior was much about Arithon, while Vastmark is also a lot about Lysaer...I really underestimated him at the beginning of the story, yet he's becoming as complex as his half-brother. And both are infuriating ;)

Vastmark is one of my favourite in the series. For starters it brings to a close the main threads weaved In The Ships of Merior, it supplies some overt and subtle answers about the story and at the same time it paves the road for the subsequent Alliance of Light story arc.

I think it's very fast-paced and it has one of the most engaging (view spoiler)[battles (and some chilling tactics) (hide spoiler)] I've ever read about in a book, and it marks an important change about Lysaer I think. Up until now, he has allowed but glimpses into his mind, yet at the book end I started to see him a bit differently. I leave it as that, but I'd be very happy to discuss about the Lysaer (and Talith!) of the beginning and after the denouement.

While this book is a standalone and a most satisfying conclusion to the events of Merior, I think it brings the conflict to a worldwide stage. And Arithon... He is a surprise yet again. I particularly like this character because his behaviour is very deceptive, and bound to confuse the other characters and also the readers. I root for him, but I cannot always agree with him. In this book anyway, for all his lively antics, I truly noticed his (view spoiler)[despair at his situation and that of the clans. (hide spoiler)]

I agree with Amy about singling out those three particular characters, what do you all think of (view spoiler)[Dakar? From almost a comic relief character to the shaper of fate (hide spoiler)], at first I thought such behaviour confusing, but then, then...well, it annoyed me to no end and I didn't mind the comeuppance!! And what about Lysaer and his shift in perceptions?

I loved this series already, but Vastmark marked the transition from love to passion, as my awareness grew with the characters. What do you think?

Sethvir in the bath also supplies a few answers to threads left open in Merior...I must admit this series is terribly addictive, totally challenging, and not copacetic to the reader!

P.S. Kharadmon rocks!

[Amy]

A few more thoughts. This is up to the end of Chapter V: Three Ships.

(view spoiler)[Is anyone else a bit disappointed with Jinesse? She's spent months and months with Arithon, and I thought she'd genuinely started to trust him - and then Lysaer turns up, and five minutes later, she's changed her mind! I can see why she'd be worried about her children, but she's so quickly changed her opinion of Arithon, based off rumours rather than what she's experienced.

And then there's Dakar. I'm still not sure what to make of him, but that prophecy towards the end of the chapter? Didn't see that one coming! I'm assuming Arithon ISN'T going to be killed, based on the length of the series alone... :D Having said that, having his fate end up solely in Dakar's hands like that is quite cruel. I couldn't actually believe Dakar was going to keep that particular prophecy to himself! (hide spoiler)]

[Sandra]

Oh, this book is practically my favorite in the series and I'm excited to see this discussion. I hate to point to anything in particular though as I don't have my copy handy. As for Sethvir in the bath, I don't remember this particular scene, but Sethvir in general is such a delightful personality with his seemingly bumbling ways that accomplish such brilliant results.

I had very strong emotional reactions to Dakar in this book, and was sobbing at one scene near the end, which makes this point in the series such a standout for me. Any book or story that engages me so strongly that I start sobbing has to get high marks in my book rankings.

I may have to start reading the series yet again!

[Sandra]

And I agree about Karadmon.

[Helen, I·ᴍ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪʙʀᴀʀʏ]

I'm going to have to re-read it again too. Third time for me. However, there'll be an unread bit at the end. I remember tears too.

[Alissa]

Sandra wrote: "Oh, this book is practically my favorite in the series and I'm excited to see this discussion. I hate to point to anything in particular though as I don't have my copy handy. As for Sethvir in the ..."

Eh, Sethvir and his wool-gathering moments. It's the opening scene of the book and I liked it very much, thinking about how many times I find myself lost in thought in a bathtub, trying to ease my worries, to find solutions...
I love Sethvir in this part of the story. I noticed here that I had underestimated him, he doesn't have Asandir's presence, but he can be scary at times, with his earth-link.

I was (view spoiler)[disappointed with Jinesse, period. Arithon is surely not the most complaisant person in the world, but his honesty is so evident! But then, Lysaer's lure is incredible, and he's just warming his charisma up. I keep my mouth shut, but Jinesse is truly a well-rounded character...at this pass anyway, I was a bit incensed. Now I'm focusing more on her motives, why is she so ready to believe Lysaer?

And Dakar, isn't it fascinating that the mad prophet is letting a prophecy influence his own behaviour? I wonder what Dakar fears the most, the prophecy coming to pass (or not) or his role in it.
Knowing without really knowing is downright frustrating! And Dakar has a mean streak I think.
(hide spoiler)]

The denouement manages to be both humorous and poignant. Which bit Helen?

[Sandra]

I think Jinesse is an average woman, worried about her children who she sees following such a dangerous path. Lysaer is extremely seductive with his charm and good looks. And she succumbs to the pressure of public opinion. Who among us hasn't been guilty of that?

[Helen, I·ᴍ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪʙʀᴀʀʏ]

The tears? Just generally I think. Nothing has made me cry like that Hobb book mind.

[Sandra]

Helen wrote: "The tears? Just generally I think. Nothing has made me cry like that Hobb book mind."

This one did. But I also sobbed over the Hobb.

[Helen, I·ᴍ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪʙʀᴀʀʏ]

Lol, I think that was almost all we talked about on that book of the series read. Remember I had to leave it and go and calm down for half an hour :(

[Sandra]

Helen wrote: "Lol, I think that was almost all we talked about on that book of the series read. Remember I had to leave it and go and calm down for half an hour :("

Yes. I remember.

[Anotherdeadhero]

Hello people, new poster here, migrated from r/fantasy at the suggestion of several esteemed members of that forum (including your own Alissa).

I'm reading the series for the first time, recently finished Warhost. This series in general is something I kind of forgot I was missing: an old school high fantasy done with maturity, complexity and emotional depth. Malazan is fantastic but very much "new school," and I love Sanderson but "emotional depth" he ain't. Nice to see others dropping Robin Hobb, though: she and Wurts were my two new favourite authors this year.


I think my favourite thing about Merior and Warhost was the sense of broadening scope. Both the magnitude of events and the reader's understanding of the bigger picture were expanded, and you can see the stage will only get more grand as the series goes on.


Avoiding spoilers because I don't have my copy to hand, but Dakar was the most interesting character to me in this part of the story.

[Sandra]

Ah, good to have your input, another...! And yes, I agree. Complexity and maturity. I can always get sucked into another read of this series.

[Anotherdeadhero]

This whole justice versus compassion theme in particular really gets my cogs turning. The end of "Curse of the Mistwraith" made me wonder if Wurts believes in justice at all! Certainly Lysaer's version of justice is very much justice for one side of the conflict, what we do is right and what they do is wrong. The sheer hypocrisy of demonising Arithon for his "use" of children while those same children died on his blade was jaw dropping. But then, Arithon's compassion doesn't always manifest in the nicest ways either- it's his understanding of people that allows him to manipulate....urgh such good stuff to chew on.

[Sandra]

Anotherdeadhero wrote: "This whole justice versus compassion theme in particular really gets my cogs turning. The end of "Curse of the Mistwraith" made me wonder if Wurts believes in justice at all! Certainly Lysaer's ver..."
Oh I know! It drives u crazy! But I can tell u without spoiling that Wurts believes in justice. But it is always tempered with compassion. And the curse blinds Lysaer. Even in the moments when he looks at himself, his own views fit easily with what the curse wants. Don't forget their childhoods. Their enmity is an old thing. And when Lysaer attempted to reach out to Arithon he gets such a prickly response that it's hard.

Also she frequently uses the unreliable narrator such that it isn't always easy to know just what justice is!

[Alissa]

Helen wrote: "Lol, I think that was almost all we talked about on that book of the series read. Remember I had to leave it and go and calm down for half an hour :("

I've recently finished the first trilogy and the bitter-sweetness lingers. I've already got Liveship Traders.

Anotherdeadhero wrote: "Hello people, new poster here, migrated from r/fantasy at the suggestion of several esteemed members of that forum (including your own Alissa).

I'm reading the series for the first time, recently ..."

Hi there! Wonderful to see you here, I really like your posts, and thank you for the "esteemed" :D

Oh yes that's my impression exactly, Curse put a lot of meat to roast, and Merior+Vastmark seamlessly pick up and build on it, and as you go on reading your awareness plays a part in the story, for it to work so brilliantly. Complexity and maturity, very true, if you think so no, wait for the next story Arc then!

Oh the brothers are both wonderful manipulators, don't you think? And each upholds his moral code in doing so, one at the cost of making more enemies, and the other...after finishing the book, what do you make of (view spoiler)[Lysaer? I gave much thought to his behaviour, his pursuit of justice is polluted by the curse, and yet he doesn't see himself as a hypocrite I think. And Arithon? He resorts to very harsh and dispassionate strategies as well...and at the end, for naught.Lysaer's shift in strategy is truly disturbing, too. (hide spoiler)]

Speaking about Jinesse, (view spoiler)[there is that Falgaire crystal bowl Lysaer recognized on her shelf, which clued him and so he decided to manipulate her using her most obvious fear, telling chilling story about what happens to children...I'm not totally surprised she reacted that way, and Arithon's past behaviour didn't help. the doubt was planted, and she acted upon it even if she had no real evidence to distrust Arithon. I think it was more a frightened woman looking for the easy way out of potential harm to her children than falling for Lysaer's charm. (hide spoiler)]

[Anotherdeadhero]

In response to Alissa: (full book spoilers) (view spoiler)[I think Lysaer certainly holds his own integrity in high regard. He's no self serving cynic; he appears to genuinely believe in the justice of his cause. But his crippling lack of introspection and self knowledge seem to be only getting worse. Especially right at the end, when he seems to conclude that it's what people see in him that is important, rather than who he is inside. Looks like he will come to define himself as a symbol of resistance against evil. Dangerous stuff. Though I can definitely see things heading toward the state we see in the Prologue to the series: Lysaer as absolute good, Arithon as absolute evil. The brothers are starting to have this mirrored perception vs reality theme around them. Lysaer is charismatic and trustworthy, but hopelessly corrupted by the Curse and his own sense of self-righteousness. Arithon is seen as deceitful and malevolent, but is in fact full of integrity and compassion hidden behind a near neurotic need for privacy. (hide spoiler)]


As for Jinesse: (full book spoilers) (view spoiler)[I didn't really like her at all. She was sympathetic at first, but her flipping her opinion of Arithon was contemptible, especially because I suspect she did it because it was easier than admitting her own faults and weaknesses. Like Lysear, demonising the Other is simpler than examining the Self. The Easy Way Out indeed. (hide spoiler)]

[Amy]

I've just finished reading, so a few last thoughts, with spoilers for the whole book.

(view spoiler)[I agree with earlier comments that, by the end, Lysaer seems to be setting himself up as a symbol of virtue and innocence for the whole of Athera, a particularly dangerous game to play when he's so painfully lacking in self-awareness. As an aside, I'm never quite sure whether it's the curse that makes Lysaer so blind to his own failings, or if that's just his natural character.

I'm hoping to see more of the Koriathain in future books. There are hints, in both this volume and Ships of Merior, of the role they've played in Athera's past and the protection they've provided - but, at the same time, I can't help wondering if they're as deluded as Lysaer about how much good they actually do, versus how self-serving their actions can be.

Also hoping to see more of Elaira and the Fellowship next time round!

I still find it very hard to read Arithon, which is exacerbated by the fact we virtually never get scenes from his POV or an idea of what he's thinking. Dakar, on the other hand, has completely redeemed himself for everything that's gone before! It feels like he's the one character with the most complete arc and the biggest transformation over the course of this book.

(hide spoiler)]

[Anotherdeadhero]

Regarding Dakar: (view spoiler)[I thought you could make a good argument for Dakar being the main character of Ships/Warhost. Above Lysaer and even Arithon. His was the character arc that changed the most, and had the most defined starting point, transformation, and end point. I ended up quite liking the hopeless sot. (hide spoiler)]


Question: are my spoiler tags working? I THINK I'm following the instructions above right, but I see the text as crossed out, not hidden. Is that what it's supposed to look like for the poster?

[Sandra]

Anotherdeadhero wrote: "Regarding Dakar: I thought you could make a good argument for Dakar being the main character of Ships/Warhost. Above Lysaer and even Arithon. His was the character arc that changed the most, and ha..."

No, they're supposed to look like Amy's -- view spoiler link. Read the instructions again. Click some html is ok.

[Anotherdeadhero]

Sandra wrote: "Anotherdeadhero wrote: "Regarding Dakar: I thought you could make a good argument for Dakar being the main character of Ships/Warhost. Above Lysaer and even Arithon. His was the character arc that ..."

Ah, it's because the OP says to put an < s > but under "some html is ok" it has the whole word written wout like < spoiler >. When I changed that, it worked.

[Sandra]

Anotherdeadhero wrote: "Sandra wrote: "Anotherdeadhero wrote: "Regarding Dakar: I thought you could make a good argument for Dakar being the main character of Ships/Warhost. Above Lysaer and even Arithon. His was the char..."

Yes.

[Alissa]

Ah, Dakar, Dakar. (view spoiler)[I'm with you in thinking this Arc is much about him, and what made him this way. At any rate, he's Asandir's apprentice so there must be something (deep down) in him. I'm very surprised at Arithon's patience with him, and at the risks he took with him.

Another character I liked in her development is Talith, she has such a sad role, and one who started most prejudiced towards Arithon, yet one who used her mind.

And Lysaer...everything points to that dichotomy, yet the Prologue (one of the most intriguing I've ever read btw) also states that things were not as they appeared...
What's true is that both Arithon and Lysaer are going to change tactics, but Lysaer's choice at the end of the book, that was truly chilling. Because it seems the rift between clansmen and townborns is very deep, and people are starving for a charismatic figure like Lysaer.
Anyway, it's not easy to understand how the curse really works, since both brothers are affected but have very different personalities, priorities and training.

Koriathain: :D
(hide spoiler)]

[Alissa]

With Warhost of Vastmark ends the second story Arc, the next book Fugitive Prince starts the Alliance of Light Arc which is the longest and is truly astounding. If you liked the story so far, and particularly the way the plot folds (and unfolds) on itself then be ready for raised stakes, more character growth and a lot of surprises (there is also a deliberate pattern in the books of this arc, again hats off to Wurts's story planning, she never fails to deliver).

Fugitive Prince is sort of like Mistwraith, for the third arc, it lays the ground work, and here the reader's awareness plays a pivotal part for the long picture ;)

[Charles]

Everything Janny does is carefully planned on a number of levels, just like most great fiction. The story, certainly, the characters, definitely, but also the theme and message. Every word has purpose and value. Even the descriptive passages set tone and atmosphere.

[Alissa]

Charles wrote: "Everything Janny does is carefully planned on a number of levels, just like most great fiction. The story, certainly, the characters, definitely, but also the theme and message. Every word has purp..."

Absolutely! And thank you again Charles, you and Sandra both, for recommending this series to me! I started with Curse last Christmas, one year ago now, and my love for Athera is stronger than ever!

[Sandra]

Alissa wrote: "Charles wrote: "Everything Janny does is carefully planned on a number of levels, just like most great fiction. The story, certainly, the characters, definitely, but also the theme and message. Eve..."

I first read Curse in 2010 and have reread the series at least four times. Love it just as much each time. It has a rhythm that is mesmerizing.

[Charles]

I am rereading in preparation for the big finish, and finding MUCH more subtle hinting and clues to the mysteries, even in Mistwraith. A really slow careful reading this time. Delightful. Stuff I missed, even after three reads.

[Anotherdeadhero]

Alissa wrote: "With Warhost of Vastmark ends the second story Arc, the next book Fugitive Prince starts the Alliance of Light Arc which is the longest and is truly astounding. If you liked the stor..."

So is there a thread for "Fugitive Prince?" Cause I'm almost done with it. I tried a search on the group but trawling through raised nothing.

[Sandra]

Anotherdeadhero wrote: "Alissa wrote: "With Warhost of Vastmark ends the second story Arc, the next book Fugitive Prince starts the Alliance of Light Arc which is the longest and is truly astounding. If you..."
There's one in the sister group Fantasy Book Club Series. We discussed the whole series a few years ago. I'll see if I can find a link.

[Sandra]

Here it is.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...