Beta Reader Group discussion
Update for the website I've been working on: Close to launch
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message 101:
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Kelsey
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Nov 27, 2015 06:35PM
The point is, how are you ever going to tell one good reader from another/ one good author from another? Your point system doesn't do that, so how are you going to do that?
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Kelsey wrote: "The point is, how are you ever going to tell one good reader from another/ one good author from another? Your point system doesn't do that, so how are you going to do that?"I can add a new system. Your feedback helps me build it, which is the whole point of me posting here. You all will have a saying in what its structure will be.
BTW, I'm kind of a stubborn guy... Thank you for bearing with me. I do listen, but I need time to think thoroughly about some points, so normally I'll defend my logic first...
With all things considered, I think I'm on the right track, with you guys shouting at me. I won't launch the site until you all like and acknowledge it. After all, I'm also a perfectionist and I'm building this site for you.
Okay, next topic: How do I rate good readers and authors?
did you read any of my comments? Or have I been like blocked?How about a rating system. After a swap occurs there is a type of survey/comment form filled out. It could be set on a scale of 1-5 and invovle quick and easy questions.
Finished on time 1-5
Gave good feedback 1-5
Replied to messages 1-5
Responded positively to feedback received 1-5
Grasp of English language 1-5
Grammatical errors and typos 1-5
etc, so then at the end, a box for a general comment could also be made, and a total star rating created, that is an average of these scores.
Then that score represents a readers or authors over all score. a star rating that represents how the community views them.
And, the comments should be viewable for all to read if desired. (like reviews of books or objects on amazon) There could be a system to get bad comments deleted where they are reported and a moderator takes a look and decided if they are appropriate or not -- just angry slander or valid. It shouldn't be in the hands of the account holder because someone who acts poorly would just try to delete all their bad reviews -- which isn't fair. It would have to be moderator controlled.
If some read your book and you like their feedback, I should give you the option to rate them.How do readers rate authors?
Kelsey wrote: "did you read any of my comments? Or have I been like blocked?How about a rating system. After a swap occurs there is a type of survey/comment form filled out. It could be set on a scale of 1-5 an..."
What? You are not blocked.
Delvin wrote: "How do you use bold fonts? This?"Oh, sweet.
Kelsey wrote: "did you read any of my comments? Or have I been like blocked?How about a rating system. After a swap occurs there is a type of survey/comment form filled out. It could be set on a scale of 1-5 an..."
Okay, readers first:
Finished on time 1-5
Absolutely.
Gave good feedback 1-5
Absolutely, but I need a good description for each value, so it's fair and everyone can agree on.
Replied to messages 1-5
Is this the response time or does it require readers to answer every message you sent? Personally, once they agree to read my book, I only need them to give me a weekly update on the progress.
They were general ideas to start you thinking. Why don't you ask yourself, if you were a reader what would you want to be judged on? You are the one making the site, aren't you?
Kelsey wrote: "They were general ideas to start you thinking. Why don't you ask yourself, if you were a reader what would you want to be judged on? You are the one making the site, aren't you?"
I am asking myself. Everything is just me thinking out aloud.
But as for rating what is good feedback, I cannot decide alone.
Barbara, what's your take on rating readers?(I don't want to judge people...)
If authors and readers can rate each other, and one rates the other low, what would happen? Retaliation?
Jeanie wrote: "Delvin wrote: "How about authors and readers can rate each other and then I find a way to list them?"What do you mean by list them?"
I don't know yet...
When I first designed this site, I wanted to try to keep things simple and less influenced by... I'm searching for the right word.
I base on the principle that everyone is their own world, so everyone can have their own list of anything. And no world should force itself upon others.
Authority. That's the word I'm looking for. I don't want to give anything or anyone the absolute authority to dictate how the rest of things should be.
Ratings and rankings... are dangerous fields. I know that's how the rest of the world is like, so tempting, so familiar, which is why I decided to try something different - Maybe things could be better when things are kept simpler.
When there's is a list of good beta readers, many authors would have swarmed them and asked them to read their work, which would result in:
1.Some authors have to wait for a year or two to have their books read. Examples can easily found on the internet.
2.Some beta readers will be driven to become paid beta readers, a natural progression.
Can't we give "mediocre" beta readers a chance? Some "mediocre" readers will be discouraged to read more or to improve their feedback. Who drove them away? We. If we want to cultivate more readers, we need to give them a more forgiving environment. I try to keep things simple and private, because I don't want resentment to develop behind the scenes.
About authors...My first feedback to my first reviewer that gave me a three-star was an emotional one, not an angry one, but an emotional one, explaining how much time I've dedicated my life to giving birth to such a valuable creation and how much she missed the theme of my book...
But in the end, I realized... I learned a lot from her feedback. No one was wrong there. No feedback is perfect. And all I can do is to find anything useful from anything, positive or negative.
Michael wrote: "how about not rate the authors or books at all? if these are beta reads, then it makes no sense to rate them, as theyre unfinished works. I for one would not want to be judged as a writer based on ..."That's exactly my site accomplishes... Finally, someone sees my point... (tears)
Michael wrote: "how about not rate the authors or books at all? if these are beta reads, then it makes no sense to rate them, as theyre unfinished works. I for one would not want to be judged as a writer based on ..."Three days... One man... One man completely understands everything my site does, including the fee thing I haven't mentioned!!!!!!And in just ONE post! You SIR, are my HEROOOOOO.
Delvin wrote: "You know, list good readers and good authors, and help them connect first? Then I move on to cultivate more good readers and authors?"Hmmmnnn ... wow.
Delvin wrote: "Michael wrote: "how about not rate the authors or books at all? if these are beta reads, then it makes no sense to rate them, as theyre unfinished works. I for one would not want to be judged as a ..."If that was your point from the start, then why would you want to assign points in the first place? As an author (and a reader), that's been my very point. Why judge with points when it's the reader who "judges" and helps--not points.
Jeanie wrote: "Delvin wrote: "Michael wrote: "how about not rate the authors or books at all? if these are beta reads, then it makes no sense to rate them, as theyre unfinished works. I for one would not want to ..."Points help my system decide the positions of all books. It's a necessity in coding this.
Jeanie wrote: "Delvin wrote: "Michael wrote: "how about not rate the authors or books at all? if these are beta reads, then it makes no sense to rate them, as theyre unfinished works. I for one would not want to ..."I don't judge books with points. I decide their positions. And I don't assign values to those positions. If you don't want me to show those points, I can do that.
Delvin wrote: "Jeanie wrote: "Delvin wrote: "How about authors and readers can rate each other and then I find a way to list them?"What do you mean by list them?"
I don't know yet...
When I first designed thi..."
Delvin wrote: "Can't we give "mediocre" beta readers a chance? Some "mediocre" readers will be discouraged to read more or to improve their feedback. Who drove them away? We. If we want to cultivate more readers, we need to give them a more forgiving environment. I try to keep things simple and private, because I don't want resentment to develop behind the scenes."
Sounds to me that Goodreads offers an environment that doesn't push readers out. There's no points, no rankings, no humiliation (except for what we allow ourselves to feel). Some readers move on to charging, some stay at their own pace... As for writers, I just posted a novel and have four people reading it in just a few days. Whether they return with feedback remains to be seen, but there's a point: This happened without points, ratings or lists.
I really shouldn't have called it ranking or rating or points...I really shouldn't...
I am not entirely turned off by your premise but I don't see the ratings and points as beneficial, except to rate the working relationship between reader and writer in each transaction.Perhaps that feedback rating can be used to advance readers in an elites list, but a writer's "score" should have no bearing or indicate in any way that it is a reflection of her writing. Our works are not up for judging and it can be highly detrimental. And trust me, you won't have any writers if their points are perceived as a judgment of their writing. We are writers first and some of us chose to pay it forward by reading occasionally, but we can't gain points reading when we are first committed to writing.
Yes, in that aspect, my site functions the same, because that's what I like about goodreads, but I add one important feature. You can decide the positions of your books if you want after you post them, and when your books get read, those positions change, so you don't have to post them over and over again to get attention.My site also tracks beta projects and gives you a "Beeper" that shows the update of those projects.
Like I've said over and over again, I want my site to be a "nice feature" of this forum! And help it grow.
Jeanie wrote: "I am not entirely turned off by your premise but I don't see the ratings and points as beneficial, except to rate the working relationship between reader and writer in each transaction.Perhaps th..."
At this point, there's no rating... The meaning of those points has never been more than determining the positions of your books. No other values or definitions have been assigned to them. Not by me at least.
I've been voicing your view all along - I don't want to rate for that exact same reason. It's beta! Why kill them?!
Can you label the little thing-a-majig button that has points on it "ACTIVITY"? This way there is no confusion that points are based on activity only? And then a star rating for interaction feedback between beta and writer?
"the positions of your books" ... I'm still not understanding the "position" of my book. Where? You mean where it gets pushed--like to the top of a read list for beta readers? Meaning, if we writers are more active in reading others' then we get points and get higher in the pecking order? Seems likes its judging, ranking, and not based on the quality of the book, but by the number of reads we writers give. If I'm a writer, I don't have time to read three books a week. Seems like a catch-22. Damned if I write, damned if I read.
Goodreads seems easier.
You don't have to read, but if some read your books, books that have not been read will be placed before you, so that they can be read. At this point, if you still want more readers instead of "waiting in line", you can read others' books, so your books will be pushed higher.In Goodreads, the positions of your posts seeking beta are not decided by whether you have received beta or not.
Delvin wrote: "Barbara, what's your take on rating readers?(I don't want to judge people...)"
Personally I'd like comments so the writers will know what sort of feedback they'll get. They aren't all looking for the same thing. Some want help with grammar and spelling, others don't. Some need feedback about their characters and plot or have specific questions, other just want to know if their first chapter will keep the reader reading....
With points you can judge timeliness, thoroughness, or if the betas responded and did what they were asked to do.
I believe that it is helpful to "judge" readers, because it must be disappointing for authors to give away their unfinished work and get no reaction or just a "well done, nice book" or "you'll have to work on it". Such statements don't even show that I've read the whole thing.
But I don't think that their should be a "ranking" of readers. The "best" would have never ending reading lists and others wouldn't get the chance to read anything.
I imagine I browse the list of books, choose something that seems interesting to me, make contact with the author and ask him to read their book. They could then look at the comments I've got and decide wether they want me to beta-read or if they need someone else.
Authors looking for betas can chose by reading the comments. Then they offer their books and the beta would say yes or no.
It's really simple.
How many betas does a book need? 5? 10? When this number is reached, the book shouldn't be listed until after having made changes or a 2nd, 3rd draft or the "finished version".
If you really have to "position" the books then according to the number of betas/readers it's got already.
The number of books a writer has read shouldn't matter.
You don't want to judge people. I don't either. But as giving your "not-yet-born-baby" in strange hands has to do with trust the authors need some kind of information about the readers.
The readers don't need that kind of information about the authors.They need a good blurb so they can know if they're interested enough to finish the job.
As for a fee...I'd really love to get paid for reading, but I know that (still) unknown writers often can't afford to pay for this service. Those who can will easily find such offers on goodreads.
For me nice comments and the acknoledgement that what I do is helpful are a sufficient incentive.
What I want is just more structure. An easy way to find what you're looking for, no rankings or judgements but enough information.
My suggestion:Books positioned according to the number of readers. Those with no readers yet on the top.
The book is not judged, nor is the author.
Readers get detailed comments about their feedback and if neccessary (because there are too many) a ranking according timeliness, thoroughness, resposiveness.
Barbara wrote: "Delvin wrote: "Barbara, what's your take on rating readers?(I don't want to judge people...)"
Personally I'd like comments so the writers will know what sort of feedback they'll get. They aren't..."
This is what I'm talking about :)
Versions and comments, got it!
Just one question: Should I encourage authors to read/critique others' work? Or should I just completely eliminate this feature? Then, basically, authors just post and wait?
In my original thread "Building a website to improve beta experience", Tom pointed out the scenario where there may be tons of books but no one reads them. "A digital ghost" he said, which was why I added this author-read-author feature to avoid this, to a degree.
If authors like to read, of course they can, why shouldn't they? But I don't think it's a good idea to combine the position of a book with the number of books its author has read.
I posted this thread about three days ago, and it has been a wild ride. The feedback I've received proves invaluable, and I have everything I need to finish this project. The next time I post here, my site will be officially launched and you are welcome to give it try.See you in 2016.
I just got off my holiday and read through all the comments. This might get long. Here's my input after reading it all:"Positioning": There's no reason you can't position the books exactly how you want them while having some sort of independent "rating" system.
"Rating": I agree that this is much more helpful for beta readers. You don't want to discourage the mediocre beta reader - thing is - I would love to get five reviews every time I submitted a short story from mediocre beta readers. That's not sarcasm. I would love it. It's the bad beta readers that authors want to avoid (and your site should want to avoid them too). You are NOT a beta reader if your feed back consists of 'I liked your book.', 'You have good characters.', or 'I didn't get it.'. That needs to be discouraged at all costs. I read 20k words for someone, giving them good, detailed feedback, and you know what I got in return? "That was hot". Period. That's all. Utterly useless.
Number of beta reads: I think all books need at least five readers. I've had the exact same manuscript come back with 'Love it, can't wait for the sequel.' and 'I tried reading this for an hour and I just don't get it.' I would say the books need to stay put where they are in your positioning system until they get five readers on board.
As your site grows and you get more manuscripts, I think the biggest benefit for drawing in beta readers would be searchability. Not all beta readers who read Fantasy, for instance, want to read the same kind of manuscript, and I'm not talking genre here. There are some beta readers who hate the prospect of reading someone's baby that they've been working on for fifteen years that is strewn with grammar errors and typo's and they may, honestly, never actually publish. Other beta readers - that is their bread and butter - they love it.
Suggestion - Instead of a ranking for the authors, let the author define themselves and their work so that the beta reader can find who and what they want to work with.
Rough draft/Alpha read: Grammar errors and typo's. May not even have an ending. May have missing chapters. Author inquisitive on attractiveness of plot, characters voice, POV, real basic stuff. Some beta's love reading this stuff, getting down into the nitty-gritty of a story and making suggestions.
Work in Progress: Most manuscripts will fall here. Hasn't had its final copy edit. Willing to change the manuscript and do rewrites.
Publish ready: Some authors submit fully ready manuscripts to beta's to see if there are any final holes, and some beta's prefer to read these clean copies.
New writer: Where beta's can go to read manuscripts from unpublished writers. Some beta's want to help the newbies.
Published authors: Ditto, just some beta's prefer working with more matured authors.
Searchable authors: This may be getting complicated, but if you allowed an author to fill out a small form for his/her manuscript, you could offer a matching service. Check box that applies. Author: I would like help with grammar/typo's. Beta: I would like to help with grammar/typo's. Author: I've never published before. Beta: I like reading new authors. Author: I need help with my characters. Beta: I like to help with character development. Author: Genre - SciFi, Space Opera. Beta: Genre - SciFi, Space Opera. Your beta could get an alert that, hey, this writer just submitted a manuscript that fit's your interest.
In my opinion, the major attraction for authors to come to your site is to get good, reliable betas. That means you have to chase away the people who only leave "feedback" of 'that was hot', and who take manuscripts and run. Those kind of people will tank your site.
The major attraction for betas would be that they can match up with authors who have the kind of manuscripts that they want to read, much more than a blurb of 'this is what my book is about.' Most beta's enjoy the process of helping an author, not just of reading a book in the genre they like.
That's my two cents...more like fifteen. Sorry about the length.
And yes, I would say drop any kind of swapping/reading in return function for the authors. A lot of authors, myself included, already read for others, and that would be an additional burden that would turn authors off from your site.
And, speaking of getting complicated...I have one more for you. What if beta1 has taken on a door stopper of an epic fantasy which takes one month to read. While beta2 knocks out little short stories, one a day. By the end of the month, beta1 has read twice as many words, but beta2 has read 30 titles. See what I'm getting at?
