Beta Reader Group discussion
Update for the website I've been working on: Close to launch
You still aren't getting this. The reason why is because there are as many readers who dont write as authors who don't read back. So why can't those two groups of people connect? If you have readers who don't need something read in return, why not allow authors to access that group?????? And like I said a lot of authors use swaps and beta readers, THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
You are making a website for swaps, not beta reading. Be clear on what it is your doing.
And you make it sound like I don't read in return. I read a lot of other authors work. But almost all authors, serious authors, have both critique partners and beta readers.
Make sure you understand what each is, because you are using the term beta readers in exchange. Beta readers are readers, no swaps necessary. Critique partners swap.
What you are giving in return, is a free read to a book you have worked extensively on, that others haven't. That's often enough for a lot readers. They want to help, they want to be a part of things. That's it. Do you think wattpad is all writers reading other writers stuff? No way. There are a lot of people using wattpad who simply read.
Jeanie wrote: "Delvin wrote: "Kelsey wrote: "So basically, if you are a writer and don't want to read, and don't want to pay, you're SOL?I don't get that. On this forum, there are some amazing beta readers who ..."
You are not obligated to read back, but if you do, your books get higher chance to be read. If you are a reader, the books that rank higher, like on Amazon or anywhere, can enter your sight more frequently, right? Unless you are completely immune to that effect... Devil...
Just it's sad, I was very excited because as an authors I would say there is def a niche for a beta reading connecting authors site. That's not what your making. And most authors who want what you are doing, making a site for swaps, know to go to places like ladies who cp or query tracker forums or Twitter or agent query connect to find cp's.This is the only forum right now to connect authors with beta readers that doesn't also force you to publicly publish your work. I thought the site you were creating was going to be similar.
Guess not.
You're just doing what's already been done.:/
Kelsey wrote: "What you are giving in return, is a free read to a book you have worked extensively on, that others haven't. That's often enough for a lot readers. They want to help, they want to be a part of thin..."First of all, I'm sorry if I offend you. This is internet, so I understand getting points crossed can be frustrating. Even face-to-face, I have to spend quite some time to explain my website to my family and friends.
Can you allow me to finish my breakfast first? I'm here all the time. By the way, my site is not powerful or important enough to make you upset. Please don't be.
Breakfast! Its 9:38 PM! And don't you know that you've done dropped a nuclear bomb on your website concept? As for me, I'm making squash soup for tomorrow. A first for me. Surely, it can't be more difficult than figuring out this innovative idea for bringing beta readers and writers together ...
upgraded-to-Satan,
Jeanie
While pressure cooker builds some steam ....Perhaps we should make a list of all the things that we agree are GOOD about Delvin's website.
For starters, I REALLY like the idea of a chat feature and the ability to post excerpts of the work to be critiqued. Brilliant and uber useful.
I say this as my pot begins to hiss like an agitated snake .... a-hissin' ...
Kelsey wrote: "Just it's sad, I was very excited because as an authors I would say there is def a niche for a beta reading connecting authors site. That's not what your making. And most authors who want what you ..."Okay, I need to make sure I understand you completely.
For example:
I'm an author and don't read back... Wait, hold on...
By "read back", do you mean reading the book of the person who just read yours?
I'm not that upset, lol, I just feel like you aren't getting this really basic concept and I'm just trying to argue my point. I enjoy a good argument is all, not a mad one, just ya know a strong discussion. You've made it sound like that if I have a book I wrote, and post it on your site asking for readers, that if someone reads my book, that I need to beta read, for someone else on the site, to earn back some arbitrary point system, so that then my book once again, becomes interested, or high up, on this system you've created, to garner another reader.
And repeat that process for every reader I get.
Finally not on my phone and able to edit too.
The point I'm really trying to get across to you is that your system sounds fine, for critique partners. But a lot of sites already exist out there for finding critique partners and for doing swaps. I can list them and post, if you'd like, links.
Sadly, though, there is not any site besides this forum for connecting authors with beta readers without having to publicly post work online.
I thought you were working toward making a site to connect authors with readers, which is a fantastic idea and a site that could really be useful within the community because one doesn't exist.
But what you are doing isn't that. You are creating a site to help authors find critique partners. It sounds like a good site, but still, that's what it is.
And sadly, those already exist.
I was just SO excited about what you were doing, and followed your work but said nothing until now, because I'm seeing it isn't at all what I thought it was.
That's part of why I'm coming across as being angry -- which really I'm just passionate -- not angry at all.
Also if you are still not sure of the distinction I am trying to explain, check out this blog post
http://jae-fiction.com/writing-tips/b...
there are a lot more posts like this, explaining the differences between what a critique partner is, and what a beta reader is.
You will see my point that beta readers do not read back. Authors look for beta readers because they do not have to put in the time to read in return, and while your system might not be a direct, hey I read your book, now you read mine, it is still the same idea, that if someone reads mine, I still have to go and read someone else's in return. The swap element is still there, whether directly or not.
Kelsey wrote: "I'm not that upset, lol, I just feel like you aren't getting this really basic concept and I'm just trying to argue my point. I enjoy a good argument is all, not a mad one, just ya know a strong di..."I understand what you're saying Kelsey. Totally. Delvin's concept seems to be making it obligatory for writers to become Betas. However, if I understand it, it seems that if you as a writer are not interested in reading, you don't have to. Your points will be low, but if you can managed to hook a Beta without giving anything in return, then I think you are welcome to. Surely, if you have a great synopsis and an intriguing promise to pitch to Betas, you shouldn't have a problem securing some readers without paying it forward.
Devil's-angel-in-conflict
Jeanie
That's how I understand it.
I understand that concept, but people tend to look at point systems. People like points. It just doesn't make sense why you'd set up a system with points, rather than say, a system with reviews. For example, if you could rate on a 1-5 star scale every interaction you have with a beta reader, or author. So if a beta reads for you, they get to rate you as an author, and the author gets to rate you as a reader. Then, you'd do well depending on the star rating system.
You could also write short reviews like, "this author has really well written work that would interest anyone, and asked me questions after reading, responding to my comments."
or
"This beta reader was fantastic and made detailed comments and pointed out some major flaws in my work."
It just seems like the point system doesn't really work for what Delvin is trying to do. That is what I am trying to explain. It alienates authors, and why get involved in a system that is going to alienate me when I can go else where and not feel unwronglyfully judged?
I understand that. I think we are on the same page. The key point of contention being that the only way to earn points is to read for others. And without points, no one will want to Beta-read for you. A catch-22. I think the problem is (if we both agree) is that there is no way for a writer to earn points except by being what we are not primarily. So, if there WERE a way for writers to earn points other than by Beta-reading, then we would all benefit and the competition for scarce resources balanced. Gracious goodness, Beta Readers must feel so coveted by now...
Jeanie
Kelsey wrote: "I'm not that upset, lol, I just feel like you aren't getting this really basic concept and I'm just trying to argue my point. I enjoy a good argument is all, not a mad one, just ya know a strong di..."Kelsey, I applaud you. Your punches are really hard.
The good news is that my site is in early development, so I'm more than capable of making any major change to it. Now...
[Challenge Accepted]
Let's go through your points one by one.
From what I see, you completely understand how the ranking works and your points are absolutely valid. Great.
Next, my website only asks you to "publicly" post samples. The other whole book file in txt format is not public and only for administrative purposes.
Regarding to existing communities, I intend to make my website a partner of this beta group. I'm serious! My intention has been joining forces all along.
Now, about connecting authors with beta readers:
Kelsey, can you share your successful experience on how to connect with beta readers or authors? I'm gathering information.
So far, I don't think a self-introduction is enough.
Beta readers are like.. just.. the best. Good ones are like, I don't even. I can't explain how important they are and what some of the beta readers I've had have done for me.But yes, that is the point I am trying to make. I think a review system instead of a point system would be much better because then everyone could have ratings, and no one would be left out.
I have connected with other authors mainly in person. I work with a group of writers and we meet twice a month in person, swapping large chunks of our works in progress back and forth. Giving extensive commentary on the work before meeting, and then discussing things in person.I have a few online CP's I also swap chapters with. These online connections were made through other forums where I have posted looking for CP's, and done some trial first chapter swaps with people until I found someone I worked well with.
I have done a lot of swaps in the past, and often find there is a large gap in where one author may be, versus another, and this can make it very hard to successfully swap. Or I have swapped and had an author not get back to me. Or give little to no feedback.
I have used beta readers in the past on two different manuscripts. I usually try to get three to four beta readers for a project, and only get them when I have finished making all the suggested changes my writing group has given me, and self edited one more time. I have had beta readers in the past tell me my book was unreadable at this stage and dump it aside (after six writers had read it) I've also had beta readers at this stage take the manuscript and never hear from them again.
Then I ask for beta readers and give them my manuscript. The beta readers usually get back with bigger picture things -- like plot holes I didn't notice, or chapters that don't work, and I then make changes based on that feedback. Good beta readers are amazing, but just like there are bad authors, there are bad beta readers. :/
I've gotten my beta readers just posting an in-progress query, and seeing if someone would be interested.
I am not self published. My goal is to be traditionally published and find an agent. Usually I do all of these steps before I work on a query, and start sending queries out to agents.
Yesterday, Delvin said:"If someone in my website ranks super high, it means he or she has read tons of other members' books in Indie Sea, and that person's own books deserve to be read."
I still don't see how reading a thousand books a week proves a book is worthy of being Beta read. Yes, I know you are talking about kindly reciprocity (paying it forward), but that's not how the real world works most of the time. I would never say, "Hey, Joe, I want to read your book because you have read ten this week." However, I WILL say, "Hey Joe! I saw that your last book was very popular and (based on your star rating) you are a good egg about the critiques. I'd love to read your new manuscript."
"A star rating with reviews" system, at least for the writers, would help readers see the character of the writers.
Oh just had another thought, a review system versus a point system would be better too, for everyone because then you can't get people who say they were reading, and maybe even "pretended to read" only giving feedback on the first chapter, just to gain a quick point. A review system wouldn't allow for that type of behavior.
Kelsey wrote: "I have connected with other authors mainly in person. I work with a group of writers and we meet twice a month in person, swapping large chunks of our works in progress back and forth. Giving exten..."Hmm... why do I think my website complements situations like yours very well...?
First of all, you already have some really good connections. If it were geologically possible, I would like to connect with you and your groups, then from there expand to reach out for more.
"I have a few online CP's I also swap chapters with. These online connections were made through other forums where I have posted looking for CP's, and done some trial first chapter swaps with people until I found someone I worked well with."
How many posts do you need to post to get attention? One? Ten? Wouldn't other new posts gradually push yours out of sight?
My site, like all forums and communities, offers your the opportunity to meet quality beta readers. Then you can connect with them however you want, and build your own group maybe.
"I have done a lot of swaps in the past, and often find there is a large gap in where one author may be, versus another, and this can make it very hard to successfully swap. Or I have swapped and had an author not get back to me. Or give little to no feedback."
My site does offer time tracking. If that person fails to give you feedback within a certain deadline, you can just cancel the beta (no changes to score). You or I or anyone cannot control who our beta readers are or their moods or schedules are. We can only accept, respect, and move on, and make sure to never make the same mistake twice.
"I have used beta readers in the past on two different manuscripts. I usually try to get three to four beta readers for a project, and only get them when I have finished making all the suggested changes my writing group has given me, and self edited one more time. I have had beta readers in the past tell me my book was unreadable at this stage and dump it aside (after six writers had read it) I've also had beta readers at this stage take the manuscript and never hear from them again"
Still, how did you find all those beta readers? I have zero readers, Kelsey. Zero. I'm more than happy to have just one.
What do I mean by "complement" is that there are more than one way to find beta readers. The one my website offers is probably mostly doable by any writer, whoever they are or wherever they are.
Of course, I want an easier way... but nothing is easy. The harsh truth probably is: There are way more books than readers. So, which book gets to be read first?
There are many rules for this competition. I just want to try a different rule.
Jeanie's scenario:"Joe has written Blast, with about 75K words. According to Joe, it is an edge of your seat thriller about a badass firefighter. He’s had 20 Betas tell him that the manuscript is inundated with typos and nonsensical sentence structure, it has no real inciting incident to drive it forward, but some people like his three main characters so …. Joe takes the compliments, refuses to work out the kinks in his story, “blocklists” all those unfavorable critiques, and reviews twenty manuscripts. He has now earned 2019 points, the top ten percentile on the site. Now his lackluster masterpiece is featured on the pages of Delvin’s Indie Sea as a prime work of fiction (if I understand it correctly)."
Oh, Joe… this is just beta, not Amazon! You haven’t published yet. And Joe, review score and beta score are separate. They are not the same! Besides, ranking doesn’t mean your book is good. It simply helps your book get more attention.
Now, here comes the more complicated diagnosis of this situation:
Why and when do people use blocklist?
In Joe’s scenario, he couldn’t stand negativities, so he blocklists them. Then the result would be that his book is still shitty and will never be improved.
As for those blocklisted by Joe, they can blocklist him too, so their books cannot be beta by Joe – they won’t trip over the same stone twice. The first mistake cannot be avoided, but the second can.
What about Joe’s points? If Joe doesn’t cheat and really beta (not review) others to earn those points, well, he’s earned them. He can stay on the top.
The next scenario is that I, for example, blocklist good beta readers, even if I accept their critiques, because I want my score to remain unchanged. Then I risk losing quality and potential readers. Why I would do that? I won’t. This is just beta, still a long way ahead.
Jeanie wrote: "Yesterday, Delvin said:"If someone in my website ranks super high, it means he or she has read tons of other members' books in Indie Sea, and that person's own books deserve to be read."
I still ..."
Wait... so beta readers only pick the good books? Who decided that they are the good books? Who first read them? Chicken and egg?
Just to make one thing clear.The ranking is not amazon ranking, not popularity ranking. The books being ranked are beta books and need to be improved.
First of all, you already have some really good connections. If it were geologically possible, I would like to connect with you and your groups, then from there expand to reach out for more.we are a closed group that knows each other in person, why would be expand and reach out for more? Do you know how much time it takes for six people, and generally groups don't want to be bigger than this.
"I have a few online CP's I also swap chapters with. These online connections were made through other forums where I have posted looking for CP's, and done some trial first chapter swaps with people until I found someone I worked well with."
How many posts do you need to post to get attention? One? Ten? Wouldn't other new posts gradually push yours out of sight?
one post. It doesn't get pushed down very fast at all because generally, not loads of people are looking. So no, this isn't an issue, I don't know why you would think it is.
My site, like all forums and communities, offers your the opportunity to meet quality beta readers. Then you can connect with them however you want, and build your own group maybe.
This is not as you've made it sound. And how are you supposed to know quality beta readers from others if all they are being judged by is how many points they have for saying they've read when there's no say if they've read or given good feedback.
"I have done a lot of swaps in the past, and often find there is a large gap in where one author may be, versus another, and this can make it very hard to successfully swap. Or I have swapped and had an author not get back to me. Or give little to no feedback."
My site does offer time tracking. If that person fails to give you feedback within a certain deadline, you can just cancel the beta (no changes to score). You or I or anyone cannot control who our beta readers are or their moods or schedules are. We can only accept, respect, and move on, and make sure to never make the same mistake twice.
Time tracking? That's cool and all, but there isn't a negative repercussion for not responding? Why wouldn't someone lose a point for such behavior. A rating system would allow you to say something like, 2 stars, they said they would get back to me and did not respond to any of my nudges when I asked what happened. or 4 stars, they said they would read but do to family circumstances was unable to finish my beta read, Don't judge them for this. You're system is limiting and doesn't really help authors differentiate good beta readers from bad. NOR might I add, bad authors from good.
"I have used beta readers in the past on two different manuscripts. I usually try to get three to four beta readers for a project, and only get them when I have finished making all the suggested changes my writing group has given me, and self edited one more time. I have had beta readers in the past tell me my book was unreadable at this stage and dump it aside (after six writers had read it) I've also had beta readers at this stage take the manuscript and never hear from them again"
Still, how did you find all those beta readers? I have zero readers, Kelsey. Zero. I'm more than happy to have just one.
I posted a well written and interesting query on this forum, and asked if someone would read. I posted on posts where beta readers said they were looking to read similar types like what my manuscript was. If you don't have a beta reader, and want one (now I think in this aspect you are likely miss using the term beta reader again, and mean a critique partner. Check out this CP hook up that an amazing blogger/writer is doing in the community
http://writetypecpmatch.blogspot.com/
Which will be starting in December. If you aren't getting beta readers, it might be that your book isn't enticing enough for some reason, or that you aren't presenting it properly to get readers.
What do I mean by "complement" is that there are more than one way to find beta readers. The one my website offers is probably mostly doable by any writer, whoever they are or wherever they are.
complement, as in, we are on the same level. That we both have a strong understanding of the English language. That there isn't really basic issues in the manuscript like spelling errors every few sentences, or grammatical issues. That we are both interested in each other's work and want to read on. There is a surprising amount of authors who probably haven't even self edited their work and are looking for beta readers. if you had a rating system, beta readers could start to tell who these authors are thanks to comments and low star ratings.
Of course, I want an easier way... but nothing is easy. The harsh truth probably is: There are way more books than readers. So, which book gets to be read first?
there are not more books than readers. You believe there are more books than readers. There might seem to be more books than readers on this forum, but actually, there are more readers than books on this world, you just have to figure out how to get those readers to check out the site and help writers.
Think Wattpad without the public posting. There are more readers on that site than posters. More readers buy books than books are written. Don't be so limiting. I would say the biggest hurdle for your website would be figuring out how to bring these readers in. How to advertise to the online reading base what your site offers.
There are many rules for this competition. I just want to try a different rule.
Competition???? Do you think this is a competition? I'm not sure what you mean by that. We are a community. Community. That is how you make those connections. Not by competing.
And alas, you aren't trying a new rule. It sounds to me like you might not know as much about the writing community as you think. Now I am getting a little aggravated because your comments feel close minded, and I'm not sure you're being very open to what I'm trying to express to you, but rather coming around and making comments on things that have nothing to do with what we were discussing -- which was the validity of your point system and if there might not be a better solution than points.
I'm very sorry that you haven't had luck finding beta readers. It is often hard to find them, and takes patience and perseverance. I think what you are trying to do is great, and I give you a lot of props for trying, not many people would. That takes hard work and dedication. But I'm afraid that you're setting yourself up with a system that I'm not sure is going to work. Now, that's my opinion. Obviously, this is your website, and you are the creator, the visionary, and ultimately, every decision is yours. Whether I would use it or not doesn't really matter. I'm one person, one opinion.
All my discussion is trying to do is raise questions that I wasn't sure you'd thought about -- a perspective I wasn't sure you'd considered.
Is that not what you posted on here to do?
From Jeanie:"The second issue: Blocklisting:
What if the Author score (and Reader score for that matter) includes how many critiques have been finished and how many have been blocklisted?
This will help other writers, as we will know immediately that Joe does a bang-up job with Reading, but we might be reluctant to dive in and help him with his own work if his Author score has thirty “blocklists” attached. We will know that Joe’s score may be influenced by his blocks, and we will know that Joe isn’t afraid to use that feature. We Readers can then approach with open eyes. After all, if I’m spending my time to help someone, I want to know that they will use the feedback. It will also have the “Think Twice” effect. Joe might be less likely to null and block all those Readers critiques if there are bread crumbs indicating that he has manipulated his score and taken advantage of others. It forces the Author to be judicious—to weigh the ramifications of keeping vs. nulling unfavorable reviews just to increase points."
You can't judge or "think twice" about an author just because he blocklists some people. What if he is just on a streak of pure bad luck and bumps into many terrible beta readers? Besides, blocklisting is a personal and private judgment. It will not be made public.
This is just beta. Don't kill them this early. Give them chance.
Kelsey wrote: "First of all, you already have some really good connections. If it were geologically possible, I would like to connect with you and your groups, then from there expand to reach out for more.we a..."
I meant I expand my network, not yours. Why would I intrude into yours? The people in my network doesn't have to know yours.
Ranking doesn't rate how good the book is. Only helps it get more attention.
I'm wholeheartedly glad that they are more readers than books, because everything will work out.
This blocklist idea sounds awful. You are so over complicating everything, and you are no longer listening to feedback. This argument doesn't seem to be going anywhere else and I've given you my two-cents.
I don't know ... Still thinking that this "point" system" creates a competitive atmosphere. A rated/review system can create the same ills, but stars in conjunction with reviews provides specifics rather than an arbitrary number. I don't want to compete. I want to write mainly, return good deeds when I can, and end up with a marketable and enjoyable piece of work (and have my hair intact in the end).
Delvin wrote: "This is just beta. Don't kill them this early. Give them chance."It seems that points and blacklisting (and yes, I used an "a" this time) does seem to have the potential for infanticide.
Given your depth or research and passion, its clear you know far more than me. If your research and bots show that it would work, then I say take it dancing.
Ultimately the goal is to bring readers and writers together in a way they can better find what they are looking for. Readers want to read the genres they like (and be helpful at) and authors need reliable helpful (beta)readers.
The problem is that a ranking-system based on quantity is not really helpful. Again: there's the difference between beta-reads and reviews. If you want reviews quantity helps a lot. If you want betas you need quality. And there should be some kind of "ranking", not neccessarily with points, perhaps with comments.
Yes, there are people like me who enjoy beta-reading without being paid. Believe it or not, we really want to help.
Barbara wrote: "Ultimately the goal is to bring readers and writers together in a way they can better find what they are looking for. Readers want to read the genres they like (and be helpful at) and authors need..."
Oh sure, now you come in ....
Well said. I couldn't agree more, Barbara.
Jeanie wrote: "I don't know ... Still thinking that this "point" system" creates a competitive atmosphere. A rated/review system can create the same ills, but stars in conjunction with reviews provides specifics ..."From an author's standpoint, it does create a competitive atmosphere, which is what I aim for. Think like this, you are an author and wrote a book. It could be the future bestseller or, you know, the other way around, but you don't care, right? What you care is that your baby gets the most attention, so what do you do? Well, I've already elaborated on that.
From a beta-reader's standpoint, well... I think, at first, beta-readers should, at their own pace, get accustomed to the fact that this ranking doesn't rate the quality of books, because there so many sites out there doing this for sales. Beta is way before sales. (Review could be a different matter, but one thing at a time)
Barbara wrote: "Ultimately the goal is to bring readers and writers together in a way they can better find what they are looking for. Readers want to read the genres they like (and be helpful at) and authors need..."
Yeah, you are right.
One thing at a time, so as for beta, would it be better for me to rate readers?
BTW, books are ranked in their respective genres.
When people see numbers, people see a "value." It's human nature.When people read a description, they see a "quality."
I really shouldn't call it ranking, should I? How about positioning?"The positioning of your books depends on how much you contribute to the community."
:P
Delvin wrote:it does create a competitive atmosphere, which is what I aim for. Think like this, you are an author and wrote a book. It could be the future bestseller or, you know, the other way around, but you don't care, right? What you care is that your baby gets the most attention...
Do you really want to create a competitive atmosphere? Why??
Your goal isn't to write a good book (the best you can) but to get attention??
Delvin wrote: "I really shouldn't call it ranking, should I? How about positioning?"The positioning of your books depends on how much you contribute to the community."
:P"
Positioning does seem more ... benign. However, you are, it seems, adding a position to books based on the number of times we read. It's not just comparing apples to oranges; it's trying to fit an apple peel onto an orange.
The new term "positioning" is really positioning ALL as readers, and the writer and books are peripheral. I suppose if that is the website's mission, then that is fine, but that should be clearly stated so everyone understands that Reading, not writing, is the primary focus, the catalyst for earning points.
Of course, ... oh the complications ...
Satan-is-pooped
...But not pooped enough to add: positioning could then turn into a simple and direct word like "activity." After all, that's what is being quantified.
Maybe I used the word "competitive" wrong. But if 1000 authors all want the top 10 seats, that's something.Without attention, no books can be read, no matter how good they are. I can assure you that the market doesn't work like "good books always get noticed." Without attention, you won't even know I exist.
The logic is really simple. You wrote the best book you could, then you can give your books exposure by reading others and giving them constructive opinions. This exposure is in your control. That's for beta. Then you improve your books from those opinions and move on to the next step. Editing and such, which my site doesn't really cover.
I know you're thinking big. But 1000 authors?!You tell me the books will be sorted by genre (how many). You can be glad if you start with 30 authors, divided by the genres...no need for too much competition!
The real challenge will be to find enough members for this community!!
Barbara wrote: "I know you're thinking big. But 1000 authors?!You tell me the books will be sorted by genre (how many). You can be glad if you start with 30 authors, divided by the genres...no need for too much c..."
1000 is just an example. If there's a only small number of books or authors, positioning really doesn't have a huge impact. I can easily browse them all.
Community grows gradually. I just try to explain the system: "You have control of your beta books exposure. Do you like it?"
If more and more people acknowledge this simple system, it will grow, slightly faster.
I don't want to complicate things, really, and nothing stops you from using more than one platform to improve your books.
And I think I have one huge misunderstanding. How many beta readers only want to read "good" beta books? I mean they are beta...
I have beta-read some books I didn't really like and others that were really bad, not because the story was bad but because the writing was bad. Strangely those authors (mostly) appreciated my critique (or said so at least). It's not about reading "good" books (of course that's more fun). It's about giving honest feedback.
Jeanie wrote: "Mine probably sucks, so ...g'night."
Night.
My site does not aim to replace or challenge any existing method of seeking beta or critiques or readership. It's simply... a last resort. When you cannot find readers any other ways, I want to offer this as your last resort...I cannot help you build your own readership. It has to be your own efforts, which is the same case everywhere. When you receive good beta, appreciate them and maybe try to establish a small network with them, so you can rely on the score/positioning system less and less. When you realize you don't need my website anymore, you've succeeded, because you already have your own network, which is my ultimate goal for everyone. And I wish you the best of luck.
Another thing about the positioning system I forgot to point out is:If I'm going to use my website, the first thing I do is NOT to read others' books, but wait, because when others' books get read, their scores will drop, and the position of my book will automatically move up. If there are more readers (not authors) than books, hopefully, authors don't need to read other authors' books or swap with them, until they feel like it or they don't want to wait in line.
Update about the Joe scenario:
I have a report and a warning system in place. People like Joe may be punished if you insist. We can play jury, and Joe may want to defend himself. If he refuses to show up in "court", well, guilty!
Michael wrote: "To be blunt, I dont see any value in what you have proposed, so then, I most likely wont be using it.You have to offer something more than I can get already. If I want a beta, I post a blurb here..."
I was saying the same thing. Like a good story will have a good and unique HOOK to keep readers, so too will a good site to keep readers and writers.
Michael wrote: "To be blunt, I dont see any value in what you have proposed, so then, I most likely wont be using it.You have to offer something more than I can get already. If I want a beta, I post a blurb here..."
That's basically what prompted my argument. It sounds so cruel, but I feel like a site like this would only serve a purpose if there was a way for authors to find beta readers who were good -- and dedicated, and for beta readers to really find authors who want and use their feedback -- who appreciate the amazing thing that beta readers are, and the hard work they do.
Basically, to enrich the community, make it stronger, and ensure that each party is getting the connection/attention they deserve and want.
Otherwise, it wouldn't be any better than this forum, or the few others out there you can use to find beta readers.
How about authors and readers can rate each other and then I find a way to list them?
You know, list good readers and good authors, and help them connect first? Then I move on to cultivate more good readers and authors?
I'm kinda like you actually. I don't want to read others' books either... at first. Now, I try my best to learn how to.
Besides, if there are more readers than books, the average beta you get by reading one book or none will likely increase. Simple math. However, if there are more books than readers... are you familiar with the concept of supply and demand? If you are, the solution to this problem will be predictable... and dark.