Beta Reader Group discussion
Update for the website I've been working on: Close to launch
I commented on your last thread, and I would like to reinforce that I think you have a great idea here.
I am a bit confused. I had the impression you'd build that site to bring authors and beta-readers together. What I see here is that you just want to help beta-swaps. If I have not written a book I can't beta-read?
Barbara wrote: "I am a bit confused. I had the impression you'd build that site to bring authors and beta-readers together. What I see here is that you just want to help beta-swaps. If I have not written a book I..."
Without books, you can read all you want without worrying about your score! :D
Besides, ranking-swap is not beta-swap. Beta-swap is voluntary.
You wrote: "3.BlocklistReaders are worrying about the experience of reading a stranger's book, because you need judge it to help the author improve it, sometimes harshly, so it could hurt feelings and not all can handle them well. In addition, what would you do if some beta readers just gloss over your book and say that it just doesn't grab them? What about your hard-earned score?!
Don't worry. Blocklist them! The lost score will be returned to you as if nothing had happened, and you and the person you blocklisted will not be able to see each other on the website, until you unblock them after a month. Out of sight, out of mind."
Seems to me that any time we authors get a review we don't like, we can simply "blacklist" the Beta reader with no harm, no foul. The problem I see is that you've created a competition with points so now this blacklist component can be used as a weapon, or at least a tactic to keep your score high.
I guess I'm a bit figgy-wiggy over the points thing. Nothwithstanding, the other issue that gets me a bit figgy-wiggy is that those who have a strong network already can get points early on and grow that network (by working with their existing network). Gals like me have spent an adult lifetime moving from State to State and have no network, no family. I rely on good, honest, intelligent and benevolently helpful people to read my work so that I can improve. Your system/site seems no better than goodreads or critique circle where the ones who have been here the longest or are already published get the attention.
Just being honest.
Maybe one way around this is to set up a feature where extra points (or a mandatory newbie read) is required at intervals--or maybe there can be a reward like BETA OF THE MONTH or DO-GOODER BETA AWARD. Otherwise it could be the same old people getting betas and the rest of us scouring the "Betas for fee" section here at goodreads.
Devil's Advocate's Sidekick,
Jeanie
Jeanie wrote: "You wrote: "3.BlocklistReaders are worrying about the experience of reading a stranger's book, because you need judge it to help the author improve it, sometimes harshly, so it could hurt feelings..."
Hi, Jeanie
After reading through your concerns, one emotion is stirring in me... Excitement.
After calming down, I just want to say - the whole goal of my website targets people like you, because, like you, I don't have a very powerful network ('cuz otherwise why on earth should I bother?), and I built this site with the above features to eliminate any popularity factor as much as possible and rank you book on the basis of pure, good old fashion reading-because-you-love-it.
I think my website achieves the opposite what all others forums or circles achieve, which heavily leans towards "I rely on good, honest, intelligent and benevolently helpful people to read my work so that I can improve".
Maybe I just didn't describe the system of my website clearly, or maybe just the system from the look of it is similar to the rest but the small changes inside it make it function completely differently. I've gone through the logic and it really WORKS, which is why I have so much faith in it.
The real competition in my website is the competition of how much you love reading books. If you receive too many beta reads, your score will be so low that others who have not received too many beta reads can rank higher.
If you are interested, I can simulate scenarios in details for you.
P.S. Really, why would I bother if it's like all the others?...(talking to myself) Do I have a strong network??? Well, I don't use facebook. My twitter has zero followers. And I fall in love with my books and characters. All I want is that people read them. Ain't about popularity. I want to see that factor sink and play no role! Sorry...
First-name-basis-with-devil's-advocate,
Delvin
Oh, I see...Doubts about my website are cordially welcome!
I'll clear them! (Rolling up my sleeves...)
Another thing about popularity.Practically and theoretically, popular authors should see no need in using my website. It targets mainly those who have not established an audience base.
If someone in my website ranks super high, it means he or she has read tons of other members' books in Indie Sea, and that person's own books deserve to be read.
I look forward to your simulation of the scenarios. Would love to see how it works. Ill even be a beta-pig. Kudos for your efforts and passion. Those things don't go unnoticed. Kudos also for being in the same ZERO friends and tweet club with me.... That club, by my special design, is reserved for those who love the art of words over popularity. Keep the posts and thoughts coming. Am intrigued.Gave birth to the advocate,
Jeanie
To my own surprise, I've never been more comfortable with people doubting my website~ Like in a hot tub~
Sweet~
Lol. We will just have to keep the jets on but the heat on high then. The best results come from adversity and those damn horned advocates :)
=Simulation 1=Prerequisite:
1. Few people know and read your book.
2. You are not good at social media.
3. You just love reading and writing and don't want to force yourself to be someone you are not. (Stay true to yourself)
What to do:
1. Place your book on Indie Sea.
2. Find other members' books you'd like to read.
3. Read them.
4. You receive scores which make your book higher in ranking.
5. More discoverability for your book and the likelihood for others to read it.
Results:
1. You don't have to be good at social media to promote your books.
2. You promote your books by reading others' books.
3. Gradually, you will have your own comfortable social network, where your popularity is cultivated naturally by who you are.
=Simulation 2=Prerequisite:
1. You are an avid reader.
2. You don't write books.
What to do:
1. Just pick what books that interest you and read them, at your leisure.
2. Nothing else...
Results:
1. You will not be surrounded by people who urge you to read their books.
2. Sit back in your lounge and enjoy a cup of tea, while reading the work of those aspiring authors whose feelings have not been hurt in a helpful and constructive manner. At your leisure.
=Simulation 3=Prerequisite:
1. You write books.
2. You don't read them.
What to do:
...
Wait... You don't read?
Why?
You don't have time? You are too busy writing your book?
Alright.
What to do:
1. Pay someone to read your books. Indie Sea has a Service section that lists people who offer those services.
2. OR find time to read others' books.
Results:
1. Less time or less money.
Just saw this in my feed and clicked on it because I was curious... It sounds like Scribophile, doesn't it? Isn't your point system the same as their karma? They even have a system in place to prevent people giving light critiques (based on word count). I don't mean to be critical, since I think Scrib has a great system; just thought it might be worth mentioning :)
=Simulation 4= <-jokePrerequisite:
1. You are loaded.
2. You are super popular and influential.
What to do:
1. Uh... Would you like to donate?
2. Or... Could you help me promote my site?
Results:
1. "You can change the world with one random act of kindness at a time."
Valerie wrote: "Just saw this in my feed and clicked on it because I was curious... It sounds like Scribophile, doesn't it? Isn't your point system the same as their karma? They even have a system in place to prev..."Great info! I'm looking at it right now.
I just checked out Scribophile ... Looks familiar, a bit like yours, perhaps.So what is your hook? What sets it apart from Scribophile and the others? Why should I place my manuscript in your hands instead of theirs? ANd why should some loaded Patterson or Rowling donate to your site? Like every book, what is your hook?
PS: Scribophile offers interesting tidbits of the day: For instance, Ernest Hemingway was once in two plane crashes in the same week. Even if I were Trump, I wouldn't donate for a tidbit hook like that.
PSS: Devil's Advocate's Sidekick is whispering in my ear, "Pst! You can change the world with one nuclear bomb, too, but a second one would have less impact."
I still have some difficulties to understand your concept. The whole ranking system is based on how many books an author reads. Reviewers can choose whatever they like. There's no ranking (how quick, how detailed).But what about beta reading? How will authors choose them? Wouldn't it be helpful if there was a kind of "ranking" not based on numbers but on reliable feedback, helpful colaboration, timely answers.....
Or, how can a beta reader (who is no profesional, no charges and no website) find a non-published book easier than here (without scrolling down 200 request where you don't know if the book is already published or the author has found enough betas or...)
Perhaps I had the wrong idea. Seems your goal is publicity after all, urging authors to read to get read.
No-connection-with-the-devil-or-his-advocate
Barbara
Valerie wrote: "Just saw this in my feed and clicked on it because I was curious... It sounds like Scribophile, doesn't it? Isn't your point system the same as their karma? They even have a system in place to prev..."Okay, let's see if I can draw some differences here. I haven't used Scribophile personally, so I'm just gonna comment on the system design.
Generally speaking, my site doesn't have that many features as Scibophile does. I want to keep things simple and straightforward and still achieve the goal of having books read.
Score is not Karma or currency. It doesn't really need you to manage it or spend it. Score dynamically re-balances the ranking of books. For instance, if your book gets beta-read, which is your goal all along, your score will drop, and the lost amount will be added to the person who read your book. And of course, if you don't like that person's beta-read, you can blocklist him or her, and the lost score will be returned to you. I guess you can call my Score currency in a way. Also, the Score achieves the "Spotlight" feature of Scribophile, I think, because of the ranking. FYI, your Score affects all your books, not just one.
As for membership, my site doesn't have a premium membership. You don't need to pay anything, unless you wish to promote any paid service on my site, which I'm currently working on.
There is no limitation to post long works or short works. You can post anything, but mostly just a sample of your book so people can have a general idea of what it's about. And you decide what portion of your book should be your sample.
However, I do need the "rawest" format of your entire book - TXT, to count how many words it has. This TXT file cannot be accessed or viewed by members, only used for word count and for moderators/admins to decide whether it's a fake book.
Now, the main difference:
If someone decides to beta-read your book, the interface for this beta project functions like a live chat room and tracks how many days have passed. You can attach the real file of your book in any format and talk with that person until you decide whether to accept this project. And there are other options in a project too.
Of course, if you prefer email, you don't have to use my site's project interface. It's all optional. But to increase your score, you do need to use it to transfer at least one valid book file, so my cheating detection algorithm can authorize the score increase.
Another main difference:
You don't have to be a professional critique to beta-read others' books. Just be a reader, like a customer. There are requirements for beta-reading, which I will consult with your guys in this forum first, but those requirements are really not that discouraging or harsh. They should be newbie friendly. :)
I think that's all. There's other fancy features too, but they are just nice touches, not significant to be talked about right now... unless you really want to know.
Jeanie wrote: "I just checked out Scribophile ... Looks familiar, a bit like yours, perhaps.So what is your hook? What sets it apart from Scribophile and the others? Why should I place my manuscript in your hand..."
Really, nothing stops you from using both at the same time. And the simulation 4 was a joke... I don't ask for donations at all.
Barbara wrote: "I still have some difficulties to understand your concept. The whole ranking system is based on how many books an author reads. Reviewers can choose whatever they like. There's no ranking (how quic..."You cannot rank how "detailed" or "reliable" a beta-read or review is. It's completely subjective and defined by individuals, which is why the blocklist is introduced.
A bad beta-read for you doesn't mean it's a bad beta-read for others. Probably that guy was just having a bad day. So, I give you the power to decide what quality of beta you're looking for.
BTW, you can chat with that person first before accepting his beta-read. I give you plenty of freedom to decide for yourself.
As for beta and review... Barbara, I really don't see where I made the impression that those two are different... :(
They are the same, supported by the same ranking system. And reader or author or both, you have the freedom to read whatever book you like.
I guess my site offers too much freedom that people are scared? :D *joke
I don't agree that beta and review are the same. If I read a book in order to write a review I just read it and then I sum up my impressions and opinion. That's it.When I beta-read I put a lot of work into it, answer specific questions, if wanted I proofread, I make cmments when something seems odd.....It definitely isn't the same thing.
I agree that it is difficult to rank readers. But if 10 authors have the same experience that means something.
Barbara wrote: "I still have some difficulties to understand your concept. The whole ranking system is based on how many books an author reads. Reviewers can choose whatever they like. There's no ranking (how quic..."For example, you want to beta-read my book. You enter the project interface and say hello. I hello back and talk about what my book is really about, giving heads-up or something. Then we talk about how fast you can finish the book and what aspects of a book you will be reading critically. Then I like it and click "accept", after which you can start the project.
After you complete the beta project and I'm grateful, your Score increases and mine drops. If you have books, yours will move up the ranking for them to be discovered more easily, and my books move down because I got what I want - to be read.
Barbara wrote: "I don't agree that beta and review are the same. If I read a book in order to write a review I just read it and then I sum up my impressions and opinion. That's it.When I beta-read I put a lot of ..."
How to beta or review or proofread is your freedom. You define the parameters. I don't dictate them. By "same", I mean they are backed by the same ranking system. However, the quality of one's review or beta or any service will be kept private, not ranked, and only decided by the person the service is offered to.
If you don't like the service, don't use them, if you want them out of your sight, blocklist them.
That's where I'm confused: how can my score increase if I'm "only" a reader?BTW the chat gives a first impression, but I can always stop reading after the first chapter.
Barbara wrote: "I don't agree that beta and review are the same. If I read a book in order to write a review I just read it and then I sum up my impressions and opinion. That's it.When I beta-read I put a lot of ..."
if there is a list of top ten readers, what happen if my favorite reader is not among them?
So I'll drop the nuclear bomb here:
I eliminate the concept of majority. Everyone has the same chance to be who they are and find those whom they are comfortable with. No such a thing as majority.
Love the chat thingy and the sample excerpt features. I think they call those ... hooks :)Still have questions about the blocklist thing. It seems to me a great way to facilitate those who can't write their way out of farts, but I'm too tired to get into that now.
Jeanie
Barbara wrote: "That's where I'm confused: how can my score increase if I'm "only" a reader?BTW the chat gives a first impression, but I can always stop reading after the first chapter."
Maybe I know what your confusion is. You have the option to "not" earn score while beta-reading. You can earn them as a pure reader, 'cuz in the future you may have books and need them.
If you stop reading after the first chapter and says you don't like it or you could not finish it, I can "Cancel" the project or you can "Forfeit" the project. No harm done. No score lost or added.
Good night then - for me the day starts now
Barbara wrote: "Good night then - for me the day starts now"It's alright. I'll answer all your questions with my frozen hands.
I guess I'll have to write a book to bring the score to a good use.
I'm curious to see how things will evolve. I was a member of freebooks4review, a similar project, but after about 8 months there were just 34 books and it seems that I have been the only one to write reviews. Now they aren't online anymore.I really hope that your project will have more success.
One of our mods also mods a review group in goodreads. I'll go over there to see what concerns them most.The first thing I have is - no reciprocal review.
That's a difficult one starting with a small group of members, but I've heard that amazon sometimes deletes reciprocal reviews.
Barbara wrote: "That's a difficult one starting with a small group of members, but I've heard that amazon sometimes deletes reciprocal reviews."What do you mean by "difficult"? Should I forbid reciprocal reviews or not? Because it can be easily done with codes.
Of course it can be easily done, but I guess that this community will be small at the beginning. So if you have let's say 10 authors and 10 "only" readers (5 of them like fantasy, 5 horror, 5 romance and 5 history), and everybody has to read to increase his score, it is more than likely that there will be reciprocal reviews. When (if) the numbers increase it'll be easier to avoid.I know your dreams are bigger than that but look how many people joined this discussion? And as some mentioned we are the ones who don't have big networks.
So basically, if you are a writer and don't want to read, and don't want to pay, you're SOL?I don't get that. On this forum, there are some amazing beta readers who read for free, and don't ask you to read in response.
Imagine as a writer you get five beta readers going, at the same time, reading your one book.
Suddenly you have to read five books in the same period?
did I miss something?
And what about the beta readers who just read and don't write?? What about the authors who want them to review their books? Your simulations don't seem right to me.
The other concerns is that this website needs to be profitable. The fact that there's a lot of comments is a good start, but unless you has deep pockets or incredible engineering skills, you needs to sell ads or maybe consider charging for a premium service to pay the bills.Some writers have commented about what if the author's book doesn't have the right genre for what readers want.
Instead of co-op, what if you allowed readers to earn points or collect prizes for beta-reading? To my knowledge Goodreads doesn't do that. Or, charge authors a one-time fee to have a book listed for beta-read. Reader reads it, gets feedback, earns cash or prizes for reading. Incentives reader to want to read people's books, authors to list and get interest in books not yet on the market.
Business is all about incentives. Few people are truly altruistic all the time. Most of the time we ask, 'what's in it for me?' the match between authors with product and beta readers with prizes seems the most logical. Otherwise, I don't see how this service adds value when I can a) pay someone a few bucks to read or b) do a swap on my own.
Barbara wrote: "Of course it can be easily done, but I guess that this community will be small at the beginning. So if you have let's say 10 authors and 10 "only" readers (5 of them like fantasy, 5 horror, 5 roman..."I understand. Changing those rules is easy on my part. I can be flexible.
Sam, a lot of readers read because they simply enjoy it. Reading is fun, and I think a lot of beta reader read because they enjoy it or because they are trying to build a background to do something more professionally. Websites like wattpad don't have incentives and they aren't necessary. Reading is usually incentive enough for websites like this, although you probably will need to do ads but if you did what Sam said I feel like it would become a joke.
Kelsey wrote: "So basically, if you are a writer and don't want to read, and don't want to pay, you're SOL?I don't get that. On this forum, there are some amazing beta readers who read for free, and don't ask y..."
You are not obligated to read back.
The point is: if there are two writers and one gets read and the other doesn't, the latter will automatically rank higher than the first. If the former wants more beta readers to read his or her book, that person needs to read others' books to rank higher again. After all, your goal is to get beta-read, so once you achieve your goal, it's others' turns.
Right now, I only give you the beta version, because this is a beta group, but the ranking system is the same for both beta and review.
You still have an issue there I don't think you are realizing. A lot of authors use this forum because we can find beta reader and don't have to read in return. I already read for seven other authors, but those people won't be on this system. I come to this forum to find readers who will read after my author friends have to make sure all the kinks are out or to see if I change/ edit I made is working. If you set the system up like you do, you are alienating a large group of authors that rely on found like this for finding readers and only readers. The system your talking wouldn't work for authors like me, so why would I use it??
If I want to find someone to swap with I go elsewhere, because generally there are other forums better suited for swapping.
I'm not sure if you are a writer, but the point I am trying to make is critique partners and beta readers are two very different things. Generally a lot of writers already have cp's, but want beta readers to read without such a close eye for bigger issues. You sight sounds like a place for swaps, not beta reading.
Why would you create a system that alienates one option? Especially when there are readers who want to read for nothing in exchange?
Sam wrote: "The other concerns is that this website needs to be profitable. The fact that there's a lot of comments is a good start, but unless you has deep pockets or incredible engineering skills, you needs ..."Ah, someone finally brings up this topic. Don't worry, I've already had a way to make the site self-sustainable, without costing anyone who just wants to read and write a dime.
As for genres, I implement categories. Readers can browse whatever they want.
Right now, I prefer not to discuss how the site is profitable, unless you are particularly interested in this subject and think maybe you can potentially benefit from it, we can talk in private.
Also note you don't ever just want one beta reader, generally you go for a group at a time. The point of beta readers of to gauge the book to an audience, which means more than one person.
Kelsey wrote: "Also note you don't ever just want one beta reader, generally you go for a group at a time. The point of beta readers of to gauge the book to an audience, which means more than one person."I relate to authors who only want to focus on writing their next book, and I can honestly tell you that at this point my site favors authors who are unable to read others' books the least, but the thing is, how can I convince a group of readers to read your book without you giving anything in return? I already don't need you to spend money or to be good at social networking.
I've written two books, sci-fi & fantasy, called Desperia Zero. They are on Amazon, but I consider taking them down for beta-read and further editing.
Also had a thought, why wouldn't you make it a rating system. Like let readers rate an author on how they took feedback and how good their story was. Rather than A system where you gain points based off reading only, why not a system that allows you to gain points for being an appreciated author? I know a lot of beta readers are turned off from reading because authors can be nasty in return hating feedback.Just giving you another idea because the system you have, I, as an author who already swaps with a lot of people, would never use your site. And I doubt , highly, I would be the only one.
Delvin wrote: "Kelsey wrote: "So basically, if you are a writer and don't want to read, and don't want to pay, you're SOL?I don't get that. On this forum, there are some amazing beta readers who read for free, ..."
So, what is the purpose of the rankings again?
Before I list the website's essential features, I want to announce my intentions of posting this today.
First and foremost, this site is built for all readers and writers, so I intend to include as many people as possible into the process of perfecting this website, which means I'll constantly seek opinions from you on how to build and better the website, even after its official launch, which is scheduled to be in December. I'll post the exact matter I seek opinions on in a separate thread with the topic: "Seeking Opinion".
Second of all, I request the permission of contacting the moderators of this forum to discuss this website in details.
=Essential Features=
1.Ranking
Every account has a beta score, and the ranking of your book is determined by it.
To increase the score, you need to beta read others' books, the process of which is a "beta project". After you complete the project, your beta score will increase by (book's word count)/100 and the beta score of the person whose book you just read will decrease by the same amount.
As a result, your book's ranking will very likely swap with that of the book you just read, which makes reading high ranking books very effective in boosting your book's discoverability. Of course, you can just read the book you find most interesting, but if you really need beta readers for your own books, read the high ranking book.
However, super high score may have opposite effects, since it makes ranking-swap less likely, so keep your score at a sweet spot.
To surmise, you don't expect beta reads without putting efforts to earn them if you are an author, and by reading, you become a beta reader for others. This wheel will keep spinning as long as you help spin it.
2.Cheating detection bot
This ranking system can be abused. Yes. For example, you can create multiple accounts and read tons of fake books. I've created a bot to catch such behaviors. If it catches you three times, you score will suffer a deduction of a massive amount, and your account page will have a ugly red outline. No. I won't ban you, for all that matters is the ranking. Without it, your book sinks to the bottom of the sea.
3.Blocklist
Readers are worrying about the experience of reading a stranger's book, because you need judge it to help the author improve it, sometimes harshly, so it could hurt feelings and not all can handle them well. In addition, what would you do if some beta readers just gloss over your book and say that it just doesn't grab them? What about your hard-earned score?!
Don't worry. Blocklist them! The lost score will be returned to you as if nothing had happened, and you and the person you blocklisted will not be able to see each other on the website, until you unblock them after a month. Out of sight, out of mind.
4.Website is free... and ad-free.
Its revenue aims to be generated from a different source. This will be discussed and disclosed in the future.
===
Feel free to ask any questions :)