Fringe Fiction Unlimited discussion
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How many reviews does a book need to seem enticing?
Mod
My reason for forming Fringe Fiction was because I believe there are books that deserve more attention than they receive and it's fantastic people here look past that. I'm aware most readers who are not authors also do not, which was why I wondered what amount of reviews makes the average reader pick up a book at random.
Again, sorry if anyone has taken this query personally. I'm not advocating books be ignored, just wondering what superficial things - like pretty cover art - gives them a leg up over others.
Courtney wrote: "I apologize if I've disappointed or offended anyone with this question. That was not my intent but this is evidently a hot button for some people and I'm sorry if anyone feels it's betraying the ..."
Hope you aren't referring to me! I love a discussion like this, at least until someone gets all butt-hurt and starts taking it personally.
As to your mention of cover art, I've come across several studies in my travels that suggest that books with a certain type of cover, simple yet eye-catching, sell more copies. Don't have any references to hand, but if someone wants to make a topic out of it, it shouldn't be hard to run down...
Hope you aren't referring to me! I love a discussion like this, at least until someone gets all butt-hurt and starts taking it personally.
As to your mention of cover art, I've come across several studies in my travels that suggest that books with a certain type of cover, simple yet eye-catching, sell more copies. Don't have any references to hand, but if someone wants to make a topic out of it, it shouldn't be hard to run down...
I will admit I am a weird reader (I think I said that already). There are a few things that experience has told me to look for - I will not read a book that is recommended from my best friend or SIL especially if they read it for their book club. If the book is recommended for book clubs, I know I won't like it. It's a weird thing. I don't do book trailers and I hate blogs dedicated to book characters from the authors book. Those are things that turn me off. I like catchy titles and interesting cover art. The cover art should tell me genre immediately. While I read a large variety of genres, I am drawn to books with a supernatural element. I would say that I am prone to judging a book by it's cover.
Mod
I'm just aware a lot of factors contribute to people even reading a summary of a book and am trying to take a savvy approach there when I put my own work out there. I know some readers have stigmatized self-published novels and avoid anything that's "unpopular". Not easy people to impress since the probably need at least 200 reviews to even read the synopsis but that's not something that ARCs will produce.
Oh well - for what it's worth - I think my answer is 20. I'm making it my goals to have 20 readers review my work and go from there. Easier said than done, I've gathered, but goals are important :)
Start making connections now and it will be far easier when your book is ready.
The fact is that there are books that have over a half million 5 star reviews on GR.......that I wouldn't ever consider reading. If the subject matter is unappealing nothing on this earth will entice me to pick it up and read it.If I am already interested in a book I will read the reviews, but ultimately I will make my own decision as to whether or not to proceed.
I suppose I should answer the question as well as comment on everyone else's answers. The cover first catches my eye. Then I look at the number of stars. If it's low, say under 3.25, then the number of reviews becomes a factor. If it's five or less, I don't worry about that; I know from my own experience that amateur reviewers will drop the rating if there's something about the writer personally that they don't like. If 50 or 100 people have rated it, and it's still 3 or less, then I'll start reading reviews to see what the perceived problem is. That could put me off, but not much else will keep me from at least reading synopsis and samples.
Of course, at the end of the day, reviews are just other people's opinions. The book I'm currently reading, Jennifer Estep's Spider's Bite, isn't moving me, despite my soft spot for the butt-kicking heroine. It is really immaterial to me that it currently has 15,000+ reviews and a 3.89 rating. I guess my point is that everybody has their own way that they use reviews, and trying to quantify and categorize may be an exercise in futility. Good topic, though, and it will be interesting to see how it eventually comes out.
Of course, at the end of the day, reviews are just other people's opinions. The book I'm currently reading, Jennifer Estep's Spider's Bite, isn't moving me, despite my soft spot for the butt-kicking heroine. It is really immaterial to me that it currently has 15,000+ reviews and a 3.89 rating. I guess my point is that everybody has their own way that they use reviews, and trying to quantify and categorize may be an exercise in futility. Good topic, though, and it will be interesting to see how it eventually comes out.
I don't even look at reviews until after I read the book. I like going in blind, because if I see "oh such and such is wrong with the book" or "this and this make the book great" i'm going to be going in with those expectation and I rather form my own.
Mod
I'm still months from needing readers since I'm still writing but I have about six or so people who gave a relatively enthusiastic offer to read when I'm done. They're people I regularly correspond with on GR so I'm hoping they'll be reliable as opposed to just a random post in a group and whoever responds to the request.
Courtney wrote: "Reviews can be misleading, though I do consider the average when in bulk.I'm still months from needing readers since I'm still writing but I have about six or so people who gave a relatively ent..."
that's good and would always find their opinions helfpul but I also find that it's better to get a stranger's opinion since they'll be more blunt. hurts like hell but it's really helpful.
so maybe a 50/50 of friends and stranger you know?
Mod
I know that's not something I can control but it does irk me to see people receive a free copy and just write "It was great!"
i'm with you on that, I asked for an honest review and they just wrote it was great and the like and i'm here yelling at my computer "WHAT DID YOU LIKE ABOUT IT!?!?!" it really irks me so i'm with you on that.
I try very hard to read and review a book when asked. If I win a book in a contest that seems for just fun then that book may go to the end of the pile. I know that I ended up with a reading list I couldn't keep up with so I did dump a few.
To try and answer Courtney's original question, when I see twenty reviews that really impresses me. If it's a self-published or small press book, then I know that they've really gotten the word out. If I see 100+ reviews for an indie book, then I start to feel like I might be missing out on some big trending book and I will probably buy it as long as the blurb sounds interesting.
Mod
Conversely, this is a friendly, active group with a number of members who can personally relate to how reviews are important and people should be grateful enough to follow through if they receive a free book. Anyone who's been participating in this thread would be someone I would trust to R&R if I gave then a copy because nobody seems inclined to burn others as they were in the past.
Well I would certainly be interested in doing a review for you Courtney. I'm not anywhere near a professional reviewer, but I can give you more than "this is great!" or "this sucked!" I try to put some thoughts into the reviews I do and I enjoy trying to express my opinions with solid reasoning. Just don't look for it to be New York Times quality.
Hey, just stopping by to add my two cents.As an author with only 4 or 5 star reviews on Amazon, and I appreciate each one of them, glowing reviews does tend to scare readers away. Sad but true. Honestly, I never even tried to get such good reviews, it just happened. I keep waiting for my first 1 star review. Annnytime now...
Yeah, I'm weird like that.
Anyways, I would have to say it depends so much on the story. Happens to be a genre that's currently popular? Then a huge amount of reviews (at least 100+) is expected. Not in a genre that's currently popular? Less reviews, but that means absolutely nothing.
As a reader, I ignore reviews altogether. One, I hate spoilers, and two, with many books published online I found it to be more beneficial to go by friend recommendation. Good ol' word of mouth, nothing more.
Reviews don't equal sales. They can help, but no guarantee. Going to the other end of the extreme and getting a lot of reviews within 24 hours of publication, has the potential to make readers suspicious enough to dismiss the book.
My suggestion, take or leave it. Start with five reviews (five arcs), then go from there. Balance is the key. The faster it gets popular online, the quicker it will die. Space things out, then move on to R to R. Also, those first few reviews are best when they're from professional reviewers, instead of just friends.
Mod
Lily, that's an excellent point how popular genre raises expectations.
Oh, one more thing, avoid press releases. They've always looked bad. Press releases are for traditional publishing. When it's done for independent authors, people get the impression of spam. I know, it's silly and superficial, but I personally wouldn't recommend a press release because they tend to damage independent authors.
Never thought about doing a press release, and I think you're correct Lily. I've always had the impression that for an indie book, grassroots is the best way to gain popularity. Those kind of things are easier to do than ever, but also harder in a way because of the increased competition.Facebook, Twitter, pinterest and the like give you more avenues but it's hard to be heard over the din because (since it's so easy) everyone is doing it.
Mod
I'm happy to be enticed but shy from anything that feels likeca sales pitch
"a sexy mind-bending thriller"I assume that means the characters attempt multiple sexual positions...?
Kidding.
In another group, this was a while ago, I can't even remember which website it was, there was a whole group of people boasting their keyword-heavy press releases. One person claimed their press release was so keyword heavy that they were getting double hits.
Meanwhile, none of these authors made any book sales, save for a rare few who also click on spam in their inbox. Not the brightest audience you would want for your book, I'm sure.
Lily wrote: "Hey, just stopping by to add my two cents.As an author with only 4 or 5 star reviews on Amazon, and I appreciate each one of them, glowing reviews does tend to scare readers away. Sad but true. H..."
I have to agree about the too many positive reviews. It makes you wonder if they're all done by friends of the author. I like reading the negative ones to see if they have valid points or if they just wanted to low ball the book. I won't pass a book over because of a few negative reviews, but I've downloaded enough samples of 5 star books to know that they're not always as perfect as they are made out to be.
Courtney wrote: "I know that's not something I can control but it does irk me to see people receive a free copy and just write 'It was great!'"Perhaps along with the ARC one might also send a tutorial on what to consider in a review.
Maybe 5 or 6 questions to help the reviewer focus.
Mod
Dan wrote: "Courtney wrote: "I know that's not something I can control but it does irk me to see people receive a free copy and just write 'It was great!'"Perhaps along with the ARC one might also send a tut..."
No offense, Dan, but I don't like that idea at all. It's leaning toward biased reviews, and if caught, that could seriously backfire on the author. The blurb/synopsis should be more than enough, in my opinion, for any professional reviewer.
None taken. What I had in mind was something like a link to a 3rd party blog with the topic of how to write a meaningful review.
Dan wrote: "None taken. What I had in mind was something like a link to a 3rd party blog with the topic of how to write a meaningful review."Ah, I see now. Yes, I would love everyone to be better educated what constitutes an actuall review. The disadvange with the internet, is that it's impossible to separate these things. Any author will get quick comments such as, "It was great!" or "It was bad." Which in turn, can be a little frustrating for any author.
I suggest being patient. Send ARCs only to professional reviewers (there are tons of them online who do it for free) and/or friends you happen to know are capable of writing actual reviews.
In terms of comments posted as a review (none of the websites makes that distinction, they're all posted as reviews no matter what), just smile, thank them, and patiently wait for the real reviews.
Even the most famous authors out there rarely got more than 10 reviews with actual critism (whether good or bad) for their first published novel, and the rest will be just comments, nothing more.
Mod
Courtney wrote: "I'll take a basic rundown of why it got the stars, really. Just enough so I know why they felt it was yay, ney or meh."Just don't get too frustrated when you get "reviews" that leaves you wondering, what the hell? ;)
not to get off topic or anything, but i'm curious. Since you don't like the "it was great!" type reviews, how you feel about just getting ratings but no review as to why they rated it that?
To be honest, at this point I'm thrilled with any review I get, even if it is just stars. But to go a little further, It's basically the same thing, rating something four or five stars and saying in the review, "it was awesome" is basically just saying the same thing twice.I think most of us are filled with self-doubt (at least I know I am) and the reviews help figure out if you're really cut out for this writing thing or not.
Even if everyone read the book and hated it (and rated it accordingly) at least I'd know that it was time to hang it up (not stop writing, I could never do that, but just stop publishing). It's the not knowing that really eats at you.
On the flip side, if everyone loves it and gives concrete reasons why you can feel as if you've got something here.
I also think it matters where the reviews come from. If you get twenty five-star reviews from people you know personally and all they say is "I loved it." Then that doesn't tell you anything.
You're expecting a little sugar-coating from your friends and family. If they can tell you why they loved your book it feels more genuine, like they aren't just kissing your behind.
But, if someone you've never met before gives you a five star review and says "I love this book" that feels pretty good. They're not trying to butter you up, they aren't trying to protect your feelings. They just don't know exactly how to express why it's so good or they don't want to take the time (hopefully, because they're busy buying your next book and reading it.)
Mod
Mark wrote: "To be honest, at this point I'm thrilled with any review I get, even if it is just stars. But to go a little further, It's basically the same thing, rating something four or five stars and saying ..."I've noticed, from friends and family, it's more so that they don't want to discourage me, which I appreciate, but it doesn't really help in the long run.
Reviews can be a lot of fun, and nothing thrills me more than to see a reader who really gets the story. At the same time, if a reader just read and enjoyed the story without digging a little deeper, I'm not going to begrudge them. It can still feel fantastic when anyone actually likes the story. It's better than hating lol
I suspect that many independent authors fall into a trap when expecting reviews to validate something, either keep writing or you suck stop writing. The thing is, the average reader only thinks in terms of validating themselves. Did the reader like the story or not? That's pretty much the most any author can get from reviews. They don't decide your writing career. You, the author, decide your writing career for yourself, regardless of reviews.
I have a number of books that I have read that I just gave stars - most of these I read before Goodreads existed. When I opted to move my "read" list from a notebook to Goodreads, I was unable to give each a review. Some I could barely remember but I wanted a more comprehensive list so that when I came across a book that seemed familiar I could look it up with ease (instead of going through my notebook). I can't speak for anyone else but when I give a book stars and no review it means I just can't remember enough to write a review or it's part of a series. I struggle with reviewing sequels, especially for series that have more than 3 books. I don't want to spoil the story for anyone and it gets harder to write a review when you are reviewing book six.
That's a good point. I've also read a lot of books well before anything like GoodReads existed. I've avoided reviews only because it's been too long and best I could say is the dreaded, It was great! Sadly, that gives others a bad impression.
Before I started reading ebooks I used to keep a spreadsheet of the books I had read, hoping to not duplicate a previous paperback/hardcover purchase. As a result I have also ended up just giving stars here for books I have read so long ago that I vaguely remember the actual content. I still keep things in a spreadsheet as well.. Old habit..
I read reviews, the five star ones tend to scare me away, too good to be true.I look at the four and especially the three star, which i find more realistic. The good and the bad are outlined in it.Also given just stars for books, just dont have the time to rate every single one I've read. I still have to update my bookshelf, I only have a few listed there.
I think that the synopsis, the cover, and the inside are enticing enough. A book can have 1000 5-star reviews. Doesn't mean that those 1000 5-star reviews are from readers who share the same interests/content that I desire to read.
I tend to agree Jonathan. I can't tell you how many times critics have panned a movie that I love. I don't put a whole lot of stock into criticism because it can be so subjective. Now, if everyone is telling me that I'm doing a bad job at a particular aspect of a book (dialogue, description, etc...) then I will take it heart, but as far as reading the reviews of books I'm thinking about buying...I don't pay much attention to them.Also, as a writer myself, I tend to shy away from writing a review unless I really liked the book. I don't like to give bad reviews to an indie author. That's kind of like one comedian making fun of another comedian and not being funny while he does it. It's a version of karma I suppose.
I think this depends on the reader. For me reviews are fun to read but not a deal breaker in getting me to read a book. If I like the summary/blurb of the book and it interest me I'll read it regardless of how many reviews it has or how many stars.
The only time I have a problem with just stars and no words is when the book hasn't even been released yet and someone rates it based on how the blurb appeals to them. I don't agree with that policy at all. If the books not been released, no one should be able to rate it.
Lori wrote: "The only time I have a problem with just stars and no words is when the book hasn't even been released yet and someone rates it based on how the blurb appeals to them. I don't agree with that polic..."That's possible????
Lori wrote: "The only time I have a problem with just stars and no words is when the book hasn't even been released yet and someone rates it based on how the blurb appeals to them. I don't agree with that polic..."I agree unless the reader has an ARC of the book and states that they read an ARC
Yes it is Michael. On Goodreads it is. You can go to a book that is coming out (not yet released) and read the blurb and add it to your shelf TBR and if you really, really want to read it, give it 5 stars. If you hate the author, have a personal vendetta against the author, or just think the book sounds like crap -- yes, you can be an a$$ and give them 1 star.
I don't read the reviews. If I like the blurb or the cover or both, I get it anyway. I like to form my own opinion on something, not let someone I don't know do it for me.Sounds basic, but it works for me.
True Joanne. But it's the people who have never even read the book -- ARC or other wise -- and give it 1 star just because that I don't get.
Wow. I didn't know that either. Problem is, GR's policy states once a book is in their system, it's never deleted. That could (if it hasn't already) cause a shitstorm.
Shall have to keep that in mind. Very weird.
I pick books on two things - I let the cover attract me first and then I read the description (cover is not 100% a way to attract me but it's usually the first thing that does). If it sounds interesting, then I read it. Often if the story can keep pulling me forward then I don't necessarily care how well it's written. I will note if it's well written or poorly written in my review but that doesn't usually affect my ability to read it.
You may notice if you look at my reviews that most have 5 stars - if I'm not loving it, I don't finish reading it and then don't write a review unless I have been asked to write a review. I hate writing bad reviews and would rather explain to the publisher that I can't write a review on the book that leave a bad review.
It's at that point I look at other people's reviews because I want to know if I was alone in my feelings of the book or if others had the same issues with the book. If I loved the book and didn't see anything wrong with it, then I don't bother with reading any reviews.