The Great Gatsby
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Chapter 6
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Jake
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Nov 16, 2015 08:38PM
On page 104, it seems as if Gatsby has become a completely different person after transforming from James Gatz. The fact that Gatsby is the successor to James Gatz is also brought up as if signifying that Gatsby has grown out of his childish ways. Do you believe that there are still some characteristics from James Gatz that Gatsby transferred over into his new life?
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No...the book tells you that. He created a Platonic conception and to that he was faithful.
Carla wrote: "No...the book tells you that. He created a Platonic conception and to that he was faithful."And yet, his behavior indicates Jay Gatsby was immature. He had a poor sense of boundaries, evidenced by his affair with a married woman and breaking the law (bootlegging and selling illicit bonds.)
Jake wrote: "On page 104, it seems as if Gatsby has become a completely different person after transforming from James Gatz. The fact that Gatsby is the successor to James Gatz is also brought up as if signifying that Gatsby has grown out of his childish ways. Do you believe that there are still some characteristics from James Gatz that Gatsby transferred over into his new life?"
See above. It was childish of Gatsby to expect to "repeat the past" and a woman to leave her marriage to wed a criminal.
I don´t believe it to be childish at all. I suspect he knew in the back of his mind that there was a good probability that she would reject him. The fact that he approached the initial meeting with Daisy in such a convoluted route of access, tells me that he had foreseen exactly that.He had, however, a maturity problem in that he refused to get on past his belated romance from years before.
Yes, he did have a problem with boundaries, certainly.
At the risk of starting another mile long thread, I dare to comment, hehe :P I never thought Gatsby was so much 'immature' as he was single-minded in his quest. He honestly believed he could recreate the past. He had created a bunch of things -- his mansion, his status -- and he thought he could create a new life with Daisy as well.
Christine wrote: "At the risk of starting another mile long thread, I dare to comment, hehe :P I never thought Gatsby was so much 'immature' as he was single-minded in his quest. He honestly believed he could recr..."
I agree Christine, he did honestly believe it.
Karen wrote: "I agree Christine, he did honestly believe it..."Yes! I should quote my evidence, too :D
p. 110:
"Can't repeat the past?" he cried incredulously. "Why of course you can!"
He looked around him wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand. "I'm going to fix everything they way it was before," he said, nodding determinedly. "She'll see."
He talked a lot about his past, and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps that had gone into loving Daisy. His life had been confused and disordered since then, but if he could once return to a certain starting place, and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was..."
Then it goes on to talk about how Jay and Daisy met. I think I am still sentimentally stuck on that soldiers' thing, the idea of GI's in WWII reading and re-reading this book :)
Christine wrote: "..but if he could once return to a certain starting place, and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was..."Oddly, a similar sentiment is expressed in Kesey's Sometimes a Great Notion.
Wanting is one thing; actually believing the past can be recreated is unrealistic. In Gatsby's case, it meant forcing his will upon the boundaries of society designed to preserve order and protect family. Breaking the law, stealing from innocent people, wrecking a marriage where a child was at stake, failing to stop his car after running over someone--these are signs of a demented, selfish mind.
In the end, his obsessiveness over the past killed him.
A more mature, evolved take on revisiting history is expressed by Eliot in his Four Quartets:
...and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.The past is always in the present. We can't take it out of the present, but we can control how it influences us.
Gatsy never once asked whether Daisy was happy in her marriage. If he truly cared about her he would have put her happiness before his. Not doing so proves his intent was selfish.
Jay, Tom, and Daisy were all selfish people.
"Gatsy never once asked whether Daisy was happy in her marriage. If he truly cared about her he would have put her happiness before his. Not doing so proves his intent was selfish."Why should he have???? That would have changed his character and the book- it's a NOVEL, or a novella, and it's not a moralistic tale or I would not have read it- I don't like those kinds of books. Boring.
Karen wrote: "" Why should he have???? That would have changed his character and the book ..."Yes, that is exactly so! Karen, I think you hit the nail on the head! OF COURSE Gatsby does not ask! That would take all the romance and life out of this novel. Why would he bother asking? He WANTS her, that is the point.
Christine wrote;"Yes, that is exactly so! Karen, I think you hit the nail on the head! OF COURSE Gatsby does not ask! That would take all the romance and life out of this novel. Why would he bother asking? He WANTS her, that is the point."
Why thank you Christine
Christine wrote: "Why would he bother asking? He WANTS her, that is the point."I'm glad we can agree on something--that Gatsby wasn't motivated by love. He just WANTS her.
Christine wrote;Pg 110
"He talked a lot about his past, and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps that had gone into loving Daisy. His life had been confused and disordered since then, but if he could once return to a certain starting place, and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was..."
Actually loving Daisy is stated in the above quote.
He is motivated BY LOVE!!!!!!Monty, it would no longer be THE GREAT GATSBY!
It would be: "The Toned-Down, Politically-Correct, Never-Steps-On-Any-Toes, Milquetoast GATSBY"
The GIs would be yawning in their bunks and the book would have gone into obscurity years ago.
Karen wrote: "Actually loving Daisy is stated in the above quote. "These are Nick's words, not Gatsby's, and Nick is hardly unbiased. In any event, actions speak louder than words. Love is a verb, not only a noun.
Gatsby uses the word "love" once or twice, but what does he actually do, or say directly to Daisy, that reveals he has the slightest clue what it means to love someone, to be devoted to them, to put their happiness before your ego gratification? We get plenty from Nick about what he imagines Gatsby felt, but that's not Gatsby acting or speaking.
What Nick gives us about Gatsby's "love" for Daisy is poetic hyperbole at most. He shows Daisy, third-hand through Jordan, soused on wine , crying over Gatsby's letter she received the day of her wedding to Tom. But there are no tears from Gatsby when he gets her Dear John letter at Oxford. What we get (from Nick on Gatsby's emotions) is detached and woefully unconvincing, "I can't describe to you how surprised I was to find out I loved her, old sport." and, "Well, there I was, way off my ambitions, getting deeper in love every minute, and all of a sudden I didn't care."
I suspect that Nick's inadequacy in expressing Gatsby's love may parallel a similar deficiency on the part of the author. Maybe Fitzgerald at the tender age of twenty-six didn't have a grip on the concept of love due to his lack of personal experience. If Hemingway is accurate in A Movable Feast, until Zelda became hospitalized for mental illness, Scott had not had sex with any other woman.
Karen wrote: "..., and it's not a moralistic tale..."
I never have said it's "just a moralistic tale." You're putting words in my mouth.
Here's a pretty straightforward announcement at the beginning of the book that morals are weighing heavy on Nick's mind: (Ch I, p.2)
When I came back from the East last autumn I felt that I wanted the world to be in uniform and at a sort of moral attention forever;Along with:
...it is what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams....
Monty, Karen didn´t write that you said it´s ¨just a moralistic tale.¨Now you are putting words in her mouth. Let´s be fair folks and quotes that stick are better than those made up.
Geoffrey wrote: "Monty, Karen didn´t write that you said it´s ¨just a moralistic tale.¨Now you are putting words in her mouth. Let´s be fair folks and quotes that stick are better than those made up."Did she change it after seeing my post? I could swear I copied and pasted straight from her post. I don't make things up. (Unless I'm hallucinating, and I don't take drugs and don't drink.)
(And yet her post #10 shows it hasn't been edited. My mind must be playing tricks on me. Senility creeping in? It was late and I was overtired from rollerblading and then attending a stressful rent control meeting. Maybe I need to slow down and act more my age.)
If I got it wrong, it was an honest mistake, for which I apologize. Mea culpa, Karen.
Apology accepted, Monty, on behalf of Karen, as she is unlikely to give it.
Geoffrey wrote: "Monty, Karen didn´t write that you said it´s ¨just a moralistic tale.¨Now you are putting words in her mouth. Let´s be fair folks and quotes that stick are better than those made up."THANK YOU!
Geoffrey wrote: "Apology accepted, Monty, on behalf of Karen, as she is unlikely to give it."Lol. Fair is fair, if it was a mistake.
AnnLoretta wrote: "Wow. Geoffrey. I'm sorry, I do read posts, although I rarely join in. Your acceptance of an apology on behalf of Karen more or less denies she has any personal authority, or that she has delegate..."
AnnLoretta, I did not interpret Geoffrey's post the way you did. I did not find it paternalistic or intrusive. To me, it was just humor, and aren't you doing what you are objecting to? Assuming I would be annoyed or angered by Geoffrey's apology?
Christine wrote: "He is motivated BY LOVE!!!!!!Monty, it would no longer be THE GREAT GATSBY!
It would be: "The Toned-Down, Politically-Correct, Never-Steps-On-Any-Toes, Milquetoast GATSBY"
The GIs would be yawn..."
Yes!
You're right, and I'll delete it. Thank you for pointing that out. I do tend to take offense on behalf of other people. Bad habit, and wasted energy.
Sorry, all, for my misinterpretation.
Sorry, all, for my misinterpretation.
Karen wrote: "Lol. Fair is fair, if it was a mistake."Seriously. I would have had to type the word "just," which I don't remember at all doing. Which means I had a momentary blackout while I was actually typing. (I DID, fall asleep once while driving--long story--and the crash woke me up. Thousands in damage but nobody hurt. It's a blood sugar/ pre-diabetic condition that can I suppose recur after over-exercise.)
Monty J wrote: "Karen wrote: "Lol. Fair is fair, if it was a mistake."Seriously. I would have had to type the word "just," which I don't remember at all doing. Which means I had a momentary blackout while I was..."
I believe you
AnnLoretta wrote: "You're right, and I'll delete it. Thank you for pointing that out. I do tend to take offense on behalf of other people. Bad habit, and wasted energy. Sorry, all, for my misinterpretation."
It"s not that big of a deal really, :)
Jake wrote: "Do you believe that there are still some characteristics from James Gatz that Gatsby transferred over into his new life? Well, despite the transformation (and despite the Platonic conception of himself taking shape in the material world), Gatsby is still not satisfied. He's still reaching toward the green light, still grasping for the golden ring, still yearning to become something more than he is, but now attaching those dreams to Daisy Buchanan instead of Dan Cody or that personal improvement schedule from his childhood. And ultimately Gatsby, like Gatz, is failing to achieve what he wants; he's still being borne ceaselessly into the past, as are we all...
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