Catholic Thought discussion
This topic is about
The Seven Storey Mountain
Seven Storey Mountain
>
Seven Storey Part One: Chapters 3 and 4
date
newest »
newest »
Dante does not portray hell as a mountain, but uses that image as a way of describing an ascent to God.
Ok, I found my reference. It's hard when you are writing in comments on these devices and can't easily flip quickly back to your book.Here's the second mountain reference I was referring to.
"In the winter term we had begun with the Inferno, and had progressed slowly, taking each day part of a Canto. And now Dante and Virgil had come through the icy heart of hell, where the three-headed devil chewed the greatest traitors, and had climbed out to the peaceful sea at the foot of the seven-circled mountain of Purgatory" (page 134 on Kindle).
Obviously, we need to keep reading, but I pulled these out because it mentions seven layers and a mountain, like our title. I suppose it will become more clear later.
I would tend to agree that I believe his intention was more along the lines of moving towards God, but perhaps he is also acknowledging our need to cleanse our souls first.
I think throughout his book, Merton describes himself quite humbly and in need of spiritual cleansing, yet he is always moving towards God.
I thought I would post this info here since I just came across a really good video about Merton. It is on youtube.Fr. Matthew Kelty at Gethsemani Abbey, who knew Thomas Merton, gave a talk about Merton and what he was like. There are two videos and each are 15 minutes long. The videos are enjoyable to watch and I highly recommend them. The links are below:
Merton part one:
http://youtu.be/mg91eksi7dI
Merton part two:
http://youtu.be/i-CRykV8j6A
Thank you. I posted one earlier, but I think it waa PBS. Matthew Kelly is a good speaker. He came to our area as a speaker for a Catholic conference a few years ago.
You are welcome. Actually it is Fr. Matthew Kelty, a Trappist Monk, from Gethsemani who is speaking, Not Matthew Kelly from Dynamic Catholic.
LOL. That's funny. I didn't know about this one. Even funnier, yesterday I saw a book written by someone with my ex-boyfriend's brother's name, who is quite religious. Small world. Thank you for sharing, regardless of the source.
Leslie wrote: "Ok, I found my reference. It's hard when you are writing in comments on these devices and can't easily flip quickly back to your book.Here's the second mountain reference I was referring to.
"In..."
Yes, I think Merton is making an explicit reference to Dante's Purgatory in the title of this book. His memoir is the story of a climb to God which is a process of purification, coming to faith, to virtue, to prayer and eventually to leaving the world behind as he enters the monastery.
So far in the reading of this book, Merton has not made any derogatory comments about his father. However, I am coming to the conclusion that Owen Merton was a very selfish man. I tend to agree with the comments Mike made about Owen in our section for chapters 1 & 2. In the very beginning of Chapter 3, Owen tells young Merton: “Pray God to make me well. I think I ought to be happy in due course. Don’t be unhappy.” I was thinking to myself, here is a man who has never taught his son how to pray but yet he is asking his son to pray for him! Thomas Merton became a holy man in spite of his parents.When Thomas Merton was commenting on the state of his own soul he says “It was through the prayers of someone who loved God that I was one day, to be delivered out of that hell where I was already confined without knowing it.” I thought this comment was beautiful.
I have to be honest and say I have a problem with Merton's association with Communism but, that being said, it will be interesting to see how he turns away from that to a religious life.
Doreen wrote: "I have to be honest and say I have a problem with Merton's association with Communism but, that being said, it will be interesting to see how he turns away from that to a religious life."Don't worry Doreen. Keep reading, things get better!
What I love about Thomas Merton and his story is the revelation of all his misadventures and the errors of a bright inquisitive youthful mind. Although he was left to the 'devices and desires' of his own heart he had, I think, a rich exposure to all manner of ideas and literature and philosophy. I see him as a seeker without a guide and his flirtation with communism seems to me to be a mere folly of youth. At the bottom of all his forays and veerings was a deadly seriousness, a longing for a homeland. As we will see he finds it in the bosom of the Church.
I agree June with all of your comments. I think the Communist interest came out ofa youthful innocence and some tricky wording in propaganda campaigns. Clearly the language appealed to many at the time.
Merton's reflection on his own life from this distance feels a bit like a game of Marco Polo. God seems to be calling to him from every direction: art, literature, social issues, human relationships, but he can't quite see the God behind them like the blindfolded player who can't see the person behind the voice. He is floundering, reaching in so many directions. But with each go around, you have the sense that the circle is closing until Merton will find himself near to the God that has been with him all along.
Irene, That's so true. It's easy to see this in someone else's life, but I think the reality is it's true for most people. At times they seem to get warm or perhaps hot, but get turned away for some reason (feeling hopeless, despair, lost or misled by others). I love your analogy. Thanks for sharing.
Is anyone else feeling annoyed with the typos and poor editing? I have the kindle version. I don't have a paperback copy to compare this with, but I'm feeling aggravated.
I haven't noticed that, but then I have it on a Victor Reader which is converting speech to text which makes it harder to detect typos.
Sometimes it's missing commas, sometimes poor grammar. Here's one example. I don't think this will spoil anyone's reading to see this."Me did not understand that all these things were simply schemes for accumulating money."
Grrrrr. I don't mind a few things here or there, but that's bad.
I am reading the 2015 paperback edition. I have not noticed any typo or grammar problems. It also has an index in the back. I think Jane had mentioned she wished her copy had an index.
Finished 3 and 4 and really starting to get into this book. I'm not very familiar with (I'll assume) Dante's Inferno but I found that part really interesting. Merton has a wonderful way of putting the reader right there as he thrashes around in his life at this point and yet such profound reflections about God and his presence in everything, everywhere...
The struggle is real, as they say... ;)
I also love all his talk about the churches that always seemed to be calling out to him and then it turns as he begins to respond and seek out the churches.
I can relate somewhat...noone in my family is Catholic, but I chose to be baptized, confirmed into the church when I was 32 because I (eventually) heeded the call.
One of my most striking memories in my life was when I was 12 (1970), my Mom took my sister and I to Europe for a special 'girls trip'. In Rome we went to see St. Peter's, I assume just for the history and the (beautiful) art and architecture. They were checking the women/girls at the entrance and if your skirts were too short, they wouldn't let you in. My sister was not allowed in and I, being my oblivious self, walked right by the checkers and got in with my Mom.
I will never forget it and while I'm not sure what happened in there, something did! I was completely moved by seeing the Pieta (before it was behind glass :( ) and the huge bronze statue of St. Peter, even though I had very little idea of what a lot of it meant.
As I reflect back, I see how He works in mysterious ways...my sister didn't get in and she is not religous at all...I go in and the rest is history!
To this day one of my favorite things to do when travelling (anywhere) is to visit different (usually older) churches, just to check them out, whether for Mass or not.
Off topic, but as I was writing this, it occurred to me that I CANNOT believe that my mom and I left my 14 year old sister outside St. Peters for 2-3 hours...by herself!!!
My...how the times do change! :)
LOL. Yes, that would be dangerous today for sure. I feel like God called to me too. On one hand you might think things just worked out a certain way, but I believe it is truly all in God's hands. We see what we need to see when we are ready and it's time. I had many experiences as a child and felt like I was hearing from God, but before anyone to told me about religion. And, like Merton, I felt drawn to churches, their art and architecture. As a small child even, all of my friends were Catholic, mom's boyfriend at a critical time was Catholic, I was invited to a Catholic wedding, hung out with kids taught in Catholic schools, all of my boyfriends were Catholic, etc. Is it any great stretch that I converted? Yet, it was not overnight. I converted only when not dating because I knew my mother would blame any guy I was with. It was such a special time for me. It felt like everything in my life had led me to that moment.
I was confused...I still need to read Chapter 4! I was wondering how I could have missed all the talk about communism...I didn't...I'm reading that part now.
Susie wrote: "I was confused...I still need to read Chapter 4! I was wondering how I could have missed all the talk about communism...I didn't...I'm reading that part now."LOL.
During his short dabbling with communism he describes a society that sounds much like “Brave New World” on page 134 though there is no indication yet of Aldous Huxley who would become an influence on him later.
Susie wrote: "Finished 3 and 4 and really starting to get into this book. I'm not very familiar with (I'll assume) Dante's Inferno but I found that part really interesting. Merton has a wonderful way of putting..."
The Pieta was displayed at the New York World’s Fair in 1964-65 in the Vatican Pavilion. That’s when we first saw it. There was no thought of protecting it as it has to be now at St. Peter’s after a madman damaged it some years ago.
Galicius wrote: "Susie wrote: "Finished 3 and 4 and really starting to get into this book. I'm not very familiar with (I'll assume) Dante's Inferno but I found that part really interesting. Merton has a wonderful ..."
It's so sad how the world is now.
Having issues with Merton being drawn to Buddhism and Huxley but maybe that's just me. For cradle Catholics this is a big no no.
Doreen wrote: "Having issues with Merton being drawn to Buddhism and Huxley but maybe that's just me. For cradle Catholics this is a big no no."He comes across to me as someone who just wants to experience life. He wants to know all the options, all the viewpoints. I remember when I was converting we had a guy friend in the group who was Buddhist. I tried to get him to explain his understanding of his faith and he couldn't, so I read a little on it.
I know what you are saying, but at the same time I've always felt like my faith was strong enough that I could learn about differing views and my status as a Catholic was unharmed. Actually, I believe it's really good for you. It should help to make you question why you profess this and that. If our faith can't stand up to debate, it's probably not that strong to begin with.
"If our faith can't stand up to debate, it's probably not that strong to begin with." I will be sending you private message.
Doreen wrote: "Having issues with Merton being drawn to Buddhism and Huxley but maybe that's just me. For cradle Catholics this is a big no no."Merton expressed more interest in Buddhism after this book, when he had furthered his interest in contemplation. This is just my opinion but from what I have read Merton was not looking for answers in Buddhism, rather he was trying to master their tools and practices for contemplation and meditation.
He did develop a friendship with Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddhist monk from South Vietnam, who teaches control of difficult emotions and development of living in full awareness of what you are doing in the present moment. I have read some of his works, outside of a religious setting, and found them to be very good.
Thich Nhat Hanh was also a poet and a peace activist, so, I believe, Merton would have looked on him favorably. In 1967 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize; however, there was no peace prize awarded at all in 1967.
I think if Merton started to follow Buddhism as a supernatural pursuit he would have a problem but I am not sure he did that. I can't comment on Huxley.
I think that Merton's journals, written near the end of his life, reveal that he maintained Catholic beliefs.
Mike wrote: "Doreen wrote: "Having issues with Merton being drawn to Buddhism and Huxley but maybe that's just me. For cradle Catholics this is a big no no."Merton expressed more interest in Buddhism after th..."
That was my point too. I think he's just exploring, trying to understand where people are coming from. Or so it seems to me.
Doreen, if I offended you, I'm sorry. It's just an opinion. My point was....for me, I, and it seems Merton leaned this way, enjoy hearing all of the viewpoints. I've been a part of Catholic circles where no one wanted to read or discuss anything that wasn't on some church approved list or pursue an activity that hadn't been practiced by the cburch for the past fifteen years. My point was, learning about other options can actually help you deepen your own faith, help to clarify why you believe and what you believe.
I'm not of the mindset that everyone needs to follow my faith. For me, if someone starts reading some other faith and finds it a better fit for them, then so be it. I haven't read your personal message and I'm about to go to bed now, but, again, if that hit a nerve I'm sorry.
Leslie wrote: "I've been a part of Catholic circles where no one wanted to read or discuss anything that wasn't on some church approved list or pursue an activity that hadn't been practiced by the church for the past fifteen years."I believe that describes how the "Catholic Thought" group was re-constituted a couple of years ago. Here is an excerpt from a post I made describing that guidepost.
"I can’t tell you how many times I have stood among the shelves at the local book store and wondered if this or that book is any good. Will it help me grow in my faith or just confuse me? Perhaps this is not a problem for the members here but in case it occasionally is, I wanted to be part of a site that would offer only the best books that are highly recommended by people I know and trust. A site where people would not have to wonder about the Catholicity of the books they were selecting to read. A site that would assist in selecting books that would draw them closer to the faith as taught by the Catholic Church.
I wanted a site where people could be relaxed and allow a sense of peace to come into their reading. So I started to look for books recommended by church leaders and people active in Catholic evangelization; Fr. John McCloskey, Fr. Robert Barron, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Patrick Madrid and some others. I will repost Fr. McCloskey’s life long list so all of our members can review it. There is so much that needs to be read, that is enlightening and uplifting, that I didn’t want to spend time with the controversial. I know that debate sharpens the mind but savoring thoughts brings rest to the mind. I really believe that just making it through the day offers plenty of challenge for most people; the quiet of a book which draws us closer to God is a good way to rest."
Since I am no longer a moderator here I offer those comments as historical background; the current moderators can amend that direction as they see fit.
My comments were related to why Merton explored spiritual materials outside the Catholic faith only.
Mike wrote: "I believe that describes how the "Catholic Thought" group was re-constituted a couple of years ago. Here is an excerpt from a post I made describing that guidepost."Thank you Mike for re-posting the mission statement of Catholic Thought. It is good to make future members aware of our guidelines incase they have not fully explored all of the postings.
If Mike's post is only an excerpt, where can the full post be found? Other than the rules in the opening window, I can't seem to find a 'Guidelines' thread? If this is indeed the mission statement, maybe it can be posted somewhere more prominent for all new members to see?Not trying to be difficult but I am sensing some tension here...
Susie wrote: "If Mike's post is only an excerpt, where can the full post be found? Other than the rules in the opening window, I can't seem to find a 'Guidelines' thread? If this is indeed the mission statement,..."They are in a pop up window to the right whenever anyone posts anything.
Yes, they are the same as what I was referring to that I see in the opening window, but when Susan Margret mentioned 'mission statement', I thought I was missing something besides the group rules...sorry for the confusion...
Susie wrote: "Yes, they are the same as what I was referring to that I see in the opening window, but when Susan Margret mentioned 'mission statement', I thought I was missing something besides the group rules....."The excerpt was taken from post 145 done on Sept 27 2015 in the general section under "currently reading".
This was based upon something I had posted a year or two prior; which I can no longer find (?).
Thanks Mike for citing where I can find the full post...
I think perhaps we should move the group mission and rules discussion to a separate thread so if people want to comment or ask questions they may do so without derailing the book discussion. Please know that I am not trying to stifle those thoughts. I just want to keep us on track.As for our discussion, I want to say that as your moderator, I have really enjoyed hearing your individual experiences with this book and how it relates to your lives. For me, that's what this is about. I certainly don't expect everyone to feel the same way about each issue that arises. How boring would the world be if we did!!!!
I hope that you will continue to feel comfortable sharing here. And if Merton is making you feel frustrated with his life choices, that's fine too. Some of his choices frustrate or confuse me too, but life is a journey and we are not perfect. I truly believe that it was the bumps in his road and his nontraditional approach that made him feel so accessible to many who otherwise felt shut out by the traditional image of the church.
Please know that I welcome your comments and let's try to keep this thread welcoming to differing, but respectful, viewpoints. I've participated in another book discussion here where, at times, we were at completely different ends of the spectrum on topics, yet always managed to pull through.
At this point in Merton's life story, I think his interest in/exploration of Buddhism and other ideologies/faiths were part of his seeking. He felt that yearning, that restlessness of the heart that Augustine describes, but is not clear how to satisfy it. Later on, nearer the end of his life, I think he explores Eastern religions/philosophies with a clearer purpose. I think at that point he is looking for techniques that will help him deepen his call to contemplative prayer. I am rather surprised that Merton says nothing about exploring Judiasm. His best friends at this time are largely Jewish, one very observant. Yet, he never seems to take that faith as a viable option to look into, or at least he does not write about that. With its rich ritual life, I thought it might have had some of the apeal that Catholicism had for him.
Irene wrote: "At this point in Merton's life story, I think his interest in/exploration of Buddhism and other ideologies/faiths were part of his seeking. He felt that yearning, that restlessness of the heart tha..."That is such a good point Irene. Why didn't he study Judaism? We aren't told, but maybe he felt like he knew their faith through friendships. It probably was less often that he was rubbing shoulders wuth Buddhists in NY in those days.
I was enjoying our shared discussion here, but at this point I'm going to step down as moderator. I feel that it is the best interest of the group. It seems that some feel that when they post an opinion, it is being met with defensive criticism from me. That is absolutely not my intention. In fact, it couldn't be farther from how I feel. I love friendly, thoughtful debates. I love to hear different opinions and having my own mind stretched to consider another's view on life. I have truly enjoyed hearing all of your thoughts and it was not my intention to challenge your beliefs or change them.But, regardless, if, even inadvertently, I am causing this reaction I want to disengage myself. I love reading and I want all of you to enjoy that as well. Best wishes to you all and I hope that you will accept my sincere apology.
I'm sorry to see this...know that I never felt that way.Discussing our Catholicism can be touchy business, but hopefully we all come to this group in the same spirit of discovery and deepening of our own faith.
Leslie, I hope you will continue to post and contribute here...
Leslie, I can only speak for myself, but I never felt anything negative from any of your posts. I echo Susie's comments. I appreciate a discussion best when everyone is not in full agreement. If everyone thinks the same way I do, I do not feel intellectually, emotionally or spiritually stretched. So, I hope you and everyone else here will continue to post and that we all can feel free to hold and voice varying reactions to the texts we read. I never have felt as if anyone has written a post in such a way that it was disrespectful of another member. I think this is such a wonderful quality of this group and its members.
I think there has been a huge misunderstanding and that I can safely say that WE ALL appreciate Leslie and she is a valued member.
For me at least, the narrative of these two chapters took a bit of a turn.
In these chapters, we read of Merton's coming into adulthood. He takes us through his growing pains as he struggles to understand his place in the world, and the intricacies of relationships with friends, family, lovers, and communities.
Sadly, he takes us through a series of deaths in his life. It was hard for me to read his deliberate emotional distancing from his father's passing. On the heels of this, he turned to a series of dead ends for himself. At times the writing is extremely vague which is confusing for the reader. Understandably, it's difficult to express fully all of the crazy thoughts running through one's head in adolescence. Later we hear of two unexplained sudden deaths while in college, then, sadly, his grandmother's passing.
He moves from school to school, sometimes with success, sometimes without. Merton becomes quite rebellious after his father's passing. Ironically, it seems that just as he is turning away from everything, he runs towards God without realizing it. He begins to travel around Rome visiting sacred sites, chapels, and studying beautiful mosaics. He also has his first experience with a Trappist monastery.
We learn of a few relationships with females that each seem to go nowhere and leave him feeling depressed and lacking self confidence.
These passages are, at times, difficult to fully understand. It is here that the censorship of his Trappist abbot is most frustrating. Today we know that Merton had an illegitimate child in England. We know that both mother and baby were killed in a bombing raid, and that is all.
So, that explains a few of the strange events he writes about, like Tom's sudden anger at him, his withdrawal from Cambridge, etc. But, there are many other passages that are equally vague later in the writing. It was said that the censorship only removed that one detail, but it seems unlikely given these other passages.
As usual, Merton relates the story of his life with humility and humor. His first experience of falling in love is a perfect example of this.
We learn of Merton's reasons for becoming a member of the Communist party. To read this book only, it reads like an honest, regretted mistake that was very short-lived. He explains that he felt misled by the rhetoric of what people stated they believed in, what the cause stood for, etc. I feel like this most certainly continues to happen around the world on a daily basis. So many people put their name behind a cause without fully understanding what they are supporting. Certainly, it's an innocent mistake. But what is confusing, is when you read other works about his life, like Paul Elie's, that imply more of a continued support as seen in letters written by Merton to others. Certainly he was a big supporter of the Catholic Social Workers group, which was not Communist per se, but had some overlap. It's not that I doubt his own version of this, it's just that it's not portrayed as being so quick lived and regretted elsewhere.
The deaths of his grandparents are so heartbreaking, and leave Merton in an anxiety attack worsened by the stress of his overburdened life style. By the way, doctors no longer recommend eating ice cream for gastritis. LOL. Dairy is an irritant. The coolness does feel good until the lactic acid kicks in.
We are also briefly shown the first glimpse of his brother's struggles in school. It would seem they have a bit in common with this, but the writing is too vague to fully understand this.
As someone who runs but doesn't really enjoy it, I had to laugh at Merton's description of his cross country events. This book has reminded me so much of myself at times, especially in the way in which he filled his college days with so many extracurricular activities. I was exactly like that.
We still haven't finished the book, and I don't already know the answer, but these chapters contained two references to mountains. Of course, our title is The Seven Storey Mountain. Why do you think he choose this title? Was it a reference to Dante's levels of hell? The first mountain reference was a positive one, spiritually. The second referred to Dante's hell. Maybe this will be more clear as we continue in our reading.