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RED RISING Trilogy re-reads
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The RED RISING re-read: Part III GOLD
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Oh whoops, I guess I've been in part III for a while. ;)
Part 3 was probably my favourite part of the book.
Karen wrote: "Chapter 28. I just listened to the part [spoilers removed]"That's such a great "OH CRAP" moment.
Argh, I'm so behind! I finished Part 1, but I haven't even started Part 2. I blame the fact that I'd JUST finished re-reading both books when I heard about this. And also NaNoWriMo. :P But I'm still following along with the discussions.
I feel like this is the part in the story where Darrow's identity starts to shift. More than the physical transformation, it seems to me that this is where the line between Red and Gold within him really starts to blur, when he starts to develop relationships with Golds. The enemy isn't just an anonymous group of people anymore. They're teenagers like him, and they're becoming his friends.
UGH, I love that ambiguity so much. Clear-cut, mustache-twisting villainy is boring. I love it when I'm not sure if I should actually be rooting for my faves (Song of Ice and Fire, anyone?). I think Darrow has a little of that ambiguity himself, and it's delicious.
Love when he references Ender's Game. But seriously, this is a reread forum. There shouldn't be any spoilers. I wish they'd quit editing out the good parts of the comments, it defeats the purpose! Seriously, if you have a good head on your shoulders and you see that it's a reread, and you haven't read the book, why would you read the threads?
I think the more that Darrow realized who the real fight is against in the game, the more he realizes how he has changed as a red to a gold. He sees that the golds can change, he sees that their actions are learned and that they can be unlearned. He's helping his classmates to evolve, but not in the way the Proctors are intending.
Stacy wrote: "Love when he references Ender's Game. But seriously, this is a reread forum. There shouldn't be any spoilers. I wish they'd quit editing out the good parts of the comments, it defeats the purpose..."
Not trying to be rude, but if you want to see the spoiler, just click the "view spoiler" button rather than writing a whole post about it. Also, it's at the discretion of the commenter wether the comment has a (view spoiler) or not, so it's not some faceless "they" editing people's comments, it's other people showing good etiquette towards those who haven't read it yet, or have read it before but have forgotten anywhere from certain parts to the whole plot and are rereading to refresh their memory
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In other news, Stacy wrote: "I think the more that Darrow realized who the real fight is against in the game, the more he realizes how he has changed as a red to a gold. He sees that the golds can change, he sees that their ac..."
It's also strange to see that Darrow himself experiences cultural diffusion, band slowly begins to mirror the thoughts and actions of those around him. It reminds you that even though he has a mission and all, he's still just a kid who can experience peer pressure like the rest of the world.
Brady wrote: " it's other people showing good etiquette towards those who haven't read it yet, or have read it before but have forgotten anywhere from certain parts to the whole plot and are rereading to refresh their memory "Exactly! I had forgotten that part which is why I put a spoiler on it. I thought maybe others had as well. That's also why I put the Chapter in the post. So if you hadn't read that far yet, you would know not to view the spoiler. Thanks Brady! :)
This is my first time reading. I just finished Part III, and have mixed emotions. I like the mix of characters but there are so many, that I feel like I bio sheet at the end of the book would be helpful. I have to refer to the Xray pages in Kindle more than I would like to keep track of who is who. I'm surprised that there is not more discussion of strategy among the characters, but at the same time appreciate that there is more "show" than "tell" to the battles.
This seems to be a good set up for the alliances and betrayals that I'm sure are coming in Part IV.
This book so far is more about gaining power than political intrigue. I find myself wondering more about the motivations of the parents and children of the major families than caring about which castle gets taken. For example, besides the grief from losing his brother, will Julian's death affect Cassius in other ways? Won't it indicate that the family has weak stock? Cassius deserves to have more complex emotions and motivations than the vengeance that seems to drive him.
I switch between reading and listening, and I like the narrator, though his accent was a surprise. I started the book by reading it. When reading, I unconsciously gave everyone American midwest accents. Now I hear the narrator when I read the dialog.
Julie wrote: "This is my first time reading. I just finished Part III, and have mixed emotions. I like the mix of characters but there are so many, that I feel like I bio sheet at the end of the book would be he..."Cassius lost his younger sibling, but not only that, he lost a sibling to someone in his own house. He isn't able to get the closure he needs by learning the identity of his brother's killer, and he knows that he sees his the person who murdered Julian every day at the Institute. This eats away at Cassius' mind, especially because he's reminded of it every time he sees his own ring.
Because this is written in 1st person limited, we can't know what Cassius feels with certainty. However, I think the craving for vengeance is only a facet of his grief, which he has grown into a façade with the intent to:
1) intimidate Julian's murderer,
2) enhance Cassius' reputation within Mars
3) mask Cassiuis' true feelings, which could be taken as "weak"
4) restore his family's overall reputation
ETA: Cassius' family is well known and powerful, so Julian will be seen as an exception rather than the law. Also, any Gold with half a brain will connect the dots and know that it was rigged by the ArchGoverner, which would further minimize any potential family-wide ramifications. Still, I suppose that could have a slight negative impact upon Julian's family
Julie wrote: "This is my first time reading. I just finished Part III, and have mixed emotions. I like the mix of characters but there are so many, that I feel like I bio sheet at the end of the book would be he..."Don't worry there is much more to come of Cassius and his family! I won't say more beyond that though :)
Good to know about Cassius. I had really liked Eo, but keeping her alive would have overly complicated the plot. I have a soft spot for freaky little Sevro, and a couple of others. I can't wait to see who makes it through the grinder.
Julie wrote: "Good to know about Cassius. I had really liked Eo, but keeping her alive would have overly complicated the plot. I have a soft spot for freaky little Sevro, and a couple of others. I can't wait to ..."Really? I actually had a strong dislike for her from the minute I start the series. She always came off to me as very selfish, Darrow gave her his heart and burdened him with her dream. I do love Sevro though! Easily one of my favorites
Beza wrote: "Really? I actually had a strong dislike for her from the minute I start the series. She always came off to me as very selfish, Darrow gave her his heart and burdened him with her dream. "That's exactly why I love Eo. She is genuinely a strong, independent woman, and even knowing she loves Darrow she has bigger goals in her life. In fact, one of my favourite quotes ever is the one when Darrow says he lives for her and she just replied to him 'then you must live for more'. In my opinion, she wants to make him understand that they love each other, but there can be another wishes/goals/whatever apart from that.
I don't know whether I have explained myself properly or not. Just tell me If I didn't :)
In my opinion, she's selfish uncaring. She not only dies for a song that she doesn't even know will be leaked, but she also (view spoiler), not caring about the pain it would cause her family. When they are caught in the garden, she encourages Darrow to lose his life through defiance despite the fact that he is content with how things are. She drives Darrow to suicide without a second thought. He's fine with the way things are, but he is burdened by her dream, which led to the destruction of his life as he knew it. Still, I can't bring myself to hate her outright, because Darrow loved her and the story is told from his perspective.
Brady wrote: "In my opinion, she's selfish uncaring. She not only dies for a song that she doesn't even know will be leaked, but she also [spoilers removed], not caring about the pain it would cause her family. ..."As a mother, I can relate to Eo. I want more for my child than she wants for herself.
In earlier eras, civil rights activists understood the need to work for a goal that they might not live to see.
The strong emphasis on family and community among the Reds indicates that there is empathy and a desire to better the group as a whole. What the wives endure to gain medicine to comfort their husbands is another example of this altruism.
Eo knew that her song would be heard by those in attendance. Perhaps just reminding those few people that there could be something more was enough for her to take the risk. A flood starts with a single raindrop.
Eo's song did not doom Darrow, burying Eo did.
However, if Eo's song had not been broadcast, Darrow may have died an empty death with no purpose other than honoring his young wife. She would have been an unsung (pun intended) hero, and he would have been put to death for committing an illegal act due to extreme grief. I guess that could have been the short story version.
Julie wrote: "As a mother, I can relate to Eo. I want more for my child than she wants for herself."Do not view spoiler if you have not read Golden Sun: (view spoiler)
Brady wrote: "Julie wrote: "As a mother, I can relate to Eo. I want more for my child than she wants for herself."Do not view spoiler if you have not read Golden Sun: [spoilers removed]"
Bummer. I don't want to spoil it for myself.
I guess I know what I'll be doing starting next week... Neglecting my family and reading Golden Sun.
Brady wrote: "Julie wrote: "As a mother, I can relate to Eo. I want more for my child than she wants for herself."Do not view spoiler if you have not read Golden Sun: [spoilers removed]"
You said, "She could have accomplished much more by staying alive and working silently against the Grays."
I got the impression that Eo knew she didn't have what it would take to unite the Reds, but she knew Darrow did. She knew he had the fire and the charisma of a born leader within him--he just needed a push. I think that's why she seemed so sad when he said, "I live for you," and she told him he must live for more.
And I kind of see them losing the Laurel as the last straw for her--she saw that nothing was going to change, she had no power to change it, and it was a world she didn't want to (view spoiler). From one perspective, that seems cold, but looking at it another way, it's altruistic.
Sarah wrote: "Brady wrote: "Julie wrote: "As a mother, I can relate to Eo. I want more for my child than she wants for herself."Do not view spoiler if you have not read Golden Sun: [spoilers removed]"
You said..."
My problem with her however is the fact that she didn't really think about Darrow as her husband, she thought of him just as a leader. This war will most likely ruin Darrow because no one enters war the same way they leave it. Darrow loses everything that mattered to him, he even says earlier in the book that the price of freedom is too high and he is only doing this for Eo. To Darrow family and love was first and it angered me that Eo didn't place the same value on those things as Darrow does but still seeks him out. She married not because they have a special connection but because he is the best. She may have loved him but not to the extent Darrow did for her.
Also for those who read Golden Son- What she did was the final straw for me I despise Eo for that.
Beza wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Brady wrote: "Julie wrote: "As a mother, I can relate to Eo. I want more for my child than she wants for herself."Do not view spoiler if you have not read Golden Sun: [spoilers remov..."
I totally understand your anger and frustration with her actions. They definitely didn't love each other the same way, but I don't necessarily think that means she loved Darrow less. They did have different values and motivations, but I don't think that means she shouldn't have sought him out at all. It helps me to remember they were 16, and as much as I adore teenagers, they're not exactly known for making decisions with a view to the long-term consequences.
I don't think Eo had any idea what she was setting Darrow up for. Beyond what she knew of the Grays' garden, and that the Laurel was a set-up, she had very little idea of how society and the hierarchy worked. I don't think she knew how hard it would be for Darrow, and I definitely don't think she set him up with the idea of him infiltrating the Golds. Her ideas were big, but vague and general. "Break the chains" and "live for more," not "go have your DNA rewritten so you don't even look the same" and "work your way to the very top of Gold society."
I love this discussion! I love that the characters create such strong (and differing) reactions.
Just finished this section.. I forgot how emotional and raw the scene with Darrow and Cassius was. Will Cassius ever realize how he is a slave just like everyone else? They are all being manipulated. I hadn't realized the first time through how Julian was specifically targeted to be eliminated by being invited to the institute. Will Cassius's rage be directed towards who rightfully deserves it?
Again, I can't say enough good things about the audio version. I feel I read it too fast the first time! The performance is great!
More thoughts on Cassius-Do you think he meant to truly kill Darrow at the end of part III or not? Is there some mental conflict? At risk of spoilers, I must say I am truly impressed at how untalented they both are managing to kill each other when they actually could.
Looking at this section, Cassius leaves Darrow in the mud with a gut wound. Now, under most circumstances that would be a way to guarantee a protracted painful death. However, in this case there are two problems:
1. Med bots. Unless Cassius has some guarantee that they won't be sent...?
2. The undeniable fact that Cassius stuck a sword in Darrow's abdomen and somehow managed not to do any damage fatal enough that very basic "medicine found under a bush" would save him? There's plenty of important organs down there and holes in the digestive tract are extremely deadly if they are not fixed quickly. Given Gold culture and that Cassius knows how to kill by breaking tracheas, you'd think he would know where to stick a sword.
Thoughts anyone? Hopefully Pierce won't say that this entire speculation is invalidated because the medicine was "Gold pills of regenerating all abdominal organ injuries." ;)
Jean wrote: "More thoughts on Cassius-Do you think he meant to truly kill Darrow at the end of part III or not? Is there some mental conflict? At risk of spoilers, I must say I am truly impressed at how untal..."
If you haven't both books before, don't view the spoiler
(view spoiler)
I have thought about that too, Jean. Maybe he wanted to, but hesitated and didn't 'finish the job' because of his close relationship with Darrow. Because I do believe he meant it when he told Darrow he had gained a brother. Or maybe he hoped that he would only be severely wounded and taken away by the Med bots.
Maybe he he intend to kill him, but didn't want another brutal kill (Titus). But I think Cassius could have easily killed him, especially when he was down and wounded. Or maybe he wanted Darrow to suffer?
Brady Thanks for pointing that out. That function doesn't work with my Goodreads app.
Jeanette wrote: "Just finished this section.. I forgot how emotional and raw the scene with Darrow and Cassius was. ...
Again, I can't say enough good things about the audio version. I feel I read it too fast the first time! The performance is great!"
I switch back and forth between the Kindle and audio version. Yes the narrator is very good.
I knew that I recognized his voice. He reads books 2 and 3 of Hugh Howey's silo saga. (The three books are Wool, Shift and Dust).
... I love this discussion! I love that the characters create such strong (and differing) reactions. "I wonder how many of the reactions would be different if people hadn't already read Golden Son. With just the information presented in the first book, my opinion of Eo is very different from those with additional information from the next book. I also wonder about Pierce Brown's motivation in making her a controversial/unlikeable figure.
I appreciate that the characters can't be simply categorized as good/bad, noble/flawed, etc. With multiple books in the series, I'll get to see them evolve from emotional teenagers to adults with varying values of justice, loyalty, pride, etc.
I have more thoughts on the characters that I want to share before I start the next book, but I'll put those thoughts in the section IV discussion so as not to muddy the waters in section III.
Stacy wrote: "Brady Thanks for pointing that out. That function doesn't work with my Goodreads app."
Ah, makes much more sense now. I was kind of wondering what the problem with pushing one extra button was, lol.
Part III was a-m-a-z-i-n-g. I loved the quote by Fitchner: "What we must study is humanity." The Golds have no other fields of study; they study the human species in order to understand "how desperate human beings react to one another" in addition to other aspects of the human psyche. Darrow (or Reaper) must also learn to think and respond to the stimuli set out by the Institute in order to rise among the Golds. Part III succeeded in completely drawing me into the story. I'm also glad that Pierce wasn't afraid to show Darrow making mistakes and, even with his superhuman body, can still be seriously injured. It makes the stakes that much higher, and adds to the intensity of the story in that I find myself afraid for him. Can't wait to delve into Part IV.
I don't view Eo as selfish but rather self sacrificing. Darrow tells her that he lives for her, meaning doesn't need more (need vs want). Eo sees his ability to lead the other Reds to a better life but if he is satisfied, he will never do it. I believe that Eo sacrifices herself and more (read Golden Son) because otherwise, Darrow would keep the status quo to protect their life together.
I don't view Eo as selfish but rather self sacrificing. Darrow tells her that he lives for her, meaning doesn't need more (need vs want). Eo sees his ability to lead the other Reds to a better life but if he is satisfied, he will never do it. I believe that Eo sacrifices herself and more (read Golden Son) because otherwise, Darrow would keep the status quo to protect their life together.
I don't view Eo as selfish but rather self sacrificing. Darrow tells her that he lives for her, meaning doesn't need more (need vs want). Eo sees his ability to lead the other Reds to a better life but if he is satisfied, he will never do it. I believe that Eo sacrifices herself and more (read Golden Son) because otherwise, Darrow would keep the status quo to protect their life together.
I don't view Eo as selfish but rather self sacrificing. Darrow tells her that he lives for her, meaning doesn't need more (need vs want). Eo sees his ability to lead the other Reds to a better life but if he is satisfied, he will never do it. I believe that Eo sacrifices herself and more (read Golden Son) because otherwise, Darrow would keep the status quo to protect their life together.
Stacy wrote: "Love when he references Ender's Game. But seriously, this is a reread forum. There shouldn't be any spoilers. I wish they'd quit editing out the good parts of the comments, it defeats the purpose..."
Amen!
I just finished my re-read (listened this time actually), and I can't believe I did not catch the "Wiggin" comment the first time around. How could something so small make me love this book even more? LOVE LOVE LOVE
Mod
A bean sized comment, if you will.
Quick question! What made you decide to make the Reds descendent from Irish? Was it random decision or was there some reason?
Two sections down, two to go! As always, please keep your reactions and questions coming!
This is thread for Part III: GOLD, so please focus your comments on this specific section. The reading period for this section is 11/7-11/13.
Here's the Part III – Gold description: If Darrow was expecting classrooms and homework at the Institute, his delusions are quickly replaced by the grim reality of violence, betrayal, and even death. On this proving ground, the line between enemy and friend is almost permanently blurred.
Enjoy everyone & Happy Reading!
Pierce & Del Rey Books