2015 - December - Theme Read - The Ardennes Offensive 1944

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Here's a good article on Lee Miller from the Daily Telegraph (London): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/ph..."

Thanks, Geevee. Miller was quite a woman.

[Paul]

I began this book - a little late - on the 30th of December. It begins on Thanksgiving 1944 and tells the story of a teen at home and his brother in Holland just prior to and during the Battle of the Bulge. It's a pretty good read so far...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Keep us posted Paul.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

To Win The Winter Sky: The Air War Over The Ardennes, 1944 1945 is a bit mixed as we get into the start of the Ardennes battle. Vivid images of a young ME-109 pilot pursued by up to 15 P-47s in the murky flight conditions during the first two days. A lot (!) of flying took place on both sides, with the Allied pilots usually having superior numbers and results (9,700+ Allied planes to 1,700+ Luftwaffe). Some successful interdiction. Impressive, courageous flying on both sides. AR-234 Arado employed--according to the author, the AR-234 was employed in recce role from July '44 but was not seen by Allied pilots until Nov '44 due to the height and speed....?

On the negative side, the story becomes disjointed as the air battles happen all over the area, over or near towns and villages not depicted on the maps and only occasional reference to which sector of the battle is affected. Very annoying to see editing errors, "hurs" for hours; "genrals" for generals, etc. Sloppy!

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Thanks for the update on your book Mike. One of my pet peeves, besides lack of maps or very basic ones, is bad or non existent editing!

[happy]

Paul, Mike,

Thnx for the updates

[J.]

Manray9 wrote: ". . .Lee Miller had been a renowned fashion model who went to Paris in 1929 as model and protégé of Man Ray. Miller appeared in a number of Man Ray's most well-known surrealist photos . . ."

A fascinating and tragic footnote to WWII photo coverage.

[J.]

Mike wrote: " '...The enemy has struck us at one of our weakest points. If they persist at it this time, we will soon no longer have any fuel production worth mentioning. Our hope is that the other side has an air force general staff as scatter-brained as ours!' (Speer)..."

Speer is an interesting and puzzling figure. When looking at group photos of Nazi officials, he stands out as the only one who doesn't look like a thug. "What's HE doing there?" I always wonder. I think he asked himself the same question a lot at Spandau. I've read both of his books--is there a third? Good writer; interesting mind.

[Mikey B.]

J. wrote: "Mike wrote: " . I think he asked himself the same question a lot at Spandau. I've read both of his books--is there a third? Good writer; interesting mind.
"

There is a very probing book on Speer by Gita Sereny Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Mikey B. wrote: "There is a very probing book on Speer by Gita Sereny Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth..."

I don't normally care for books on individual Nazi leaders but I may go for this one. As J. points out, Speer is an interesting figure, unlike most of the others.

[Manray9]

J. wrote: "Mike wrote: " '...The enemy has struck us at one of our weakest points. If they persist at it this time, we will soon no longer have any fuel production worth mentioning. Our hope is that the other..."

J: Many historians of recent vintage take Speer and his accounts with a hefty dose of salt. Most of his testimony is blatantly self-serving and intended to whitewash his own culpability. He played the Western powers well -- winning over correspondents and important figures -- but never forget he was an early adherent to Nazism, a slave-driver, and implicated in actions supporting the Holocaust. It's difficult to gussy up an ardent Nazi.

[Mikey B.]

Manray9 wrote: " Many historians of recent vintage take Speer and his accounts with a hefty dose of salt. Most of his testimony is blatantly self-serving and intended to whitewash his own culpability. He played the Western powers well -- winning over correspondents and important figures -- but never forget he was an early adherent to Nazism, a slave-driver, and implicated in actions supporting the Holocaust. It's difficult to gussy up an ardent Nazi. "

This is basically where Gita Sereny goes in her biography of Speer.

[Dimitri]

Mikey B. wrote: "Manray9 wrote: " Many historians of recent vintage take Speer and his accounts with a hefty dose of salt."

If it hand, use the index to The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy sometimes for Speer's ruthless role in the establishment of the war economy. He undresses the gentleman among wolves without spite.

[Robert]

Dimitri wrote: "Mikey B. wrote: "Manray9 wrote: " Many historians of recent vintage take Speer and his accounts with a hefty dose of salt."

If it hand, use the index to [book:The Wages of Destruction: The Making ..."

Great description, Dimitri!

[J.]

Mikey B. wrote: "There is a very probing book on Speer by Gita Sereny Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth..."

Should be interesting. I'll take a look after I get my book off the ground.

[Paul]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Keep us posted Paul."

My review is here:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

(It is a brief review, but it was a small book. :D)

[Colin]

I knew many Germans who had interacted with Speer, three of whom had been in discussion with Speer on the atttmpts to remove Hitler from power, primarily during the July 20, 1944 bomb plot. Speer was an opportunist, but then again we can look at any political backdrop (current US Obama Admin) and see self serving, brainwashed ideologues who follow lockstep for power and a paycheck. Speer, to his credit, did enforce better rations and living conditions for many prisoners working under his administration. He also openly defied Hitler's Vernichtung Befehl, and would not destroy cities, bridges, railroads, and other infrastructure. he admitted this to Hitler in the presence of several Germans (I interviewed three of them), and Hitler seemed to see his logic, and did not have him arrested or executed. He was less than generous to Himmler and Goering for their deceptions.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

To Win The Winter Sky: The Air War Over The Ardennes, 1944 1945 Interesting picture by a German general on the results of Allied airpower on Dec 23rd, after the weather clears: You could trace a line of burning German vehicles from the Bastogne perimeter all the way to the Western Wall.

On Dec 24th, BGen Castle led his bomber force into battle. He stayed at the controls of his aircraft so his men could bail out after sustaining significant damage. He was awarded the MOH for his valor: http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies...

[Robert]

Mike wrote: "To Win The Winter Sky: The Air War Over The Ardennes, 1944 1945 Interesting picture by a German general on the results of Allied airpower on Dec 23rd, after the weather clears: You co..."

Thanks, Mike. Looks like one that should be on my list!

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Robert wrote: "Thanks, Mike. Looks like one that should be on my list!..."

Robert, I will look for your thoughts on the book considering your background in the battle. In fact I was going to bring up Patton's Prayer as I read your Scribd article. Parker brings up a slightly different genesis of the prayer in the book. According to Parker, Patton summoned Chaplain O'Neill on Dec 12th to write the prayer in support of Operation Tink. Operation Tink (I had not heard the name before) was Patton's plan to blow a hole in the Western Wall and get across the Rhine, beginning on Dec 19th. Patton's air component commander, BGen Weyland, had obtained commitment of a massive amount of tactical and strategic airpower to conduct a "Cobra-like" air attack to initiate the offensive (1,000 tactical bombers and 3,000 heavy bombers). However the air commanders stressed that good weather was imperative for success, hence Patton's request for the prayer.
What is clear is that the prayer did not come about as the movie portrayed, but preceded the Ardennes battle. It may be a small detail but who doesn't have it imprinted on their brain after seeing the movie with eerie, silent night combat and the soldier falling in the field of snow. Parker interviewed Weyland and notes Ladislas Farago Patton: Ordeal and Triumph as his source for the prayer. I tend to think your account might be more accurate but it was interesting to consider Parker's.

[Robert]

Mike wrote: "Robert wrote: "Thanks, Mike. Looks like one that should be on my list!..."

Robert, I will look for your thoughts on the book considering your background in the battle. In fact I was going to bring..."

Yes, I have a signed copy of O'Neill's own account of the prayer so I assume it's solid. If you happen to have read my book on Oscar Koch you will know that Farago probably stole anything he could use from a Koch ms., but as I recall that would not have included anything on the prayer. And much as I love the movie, it's hard for me to take the fiction that excluded Koch and totally distorted Patton's reliance on intelligence. This actually is a great disservice to Patton's reputation, as well.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Started To Win The Winter Sky: The Air War Over The Ardennes, 1944 1945 late and finished late. If you want a more complete picture of the Ardennes battle, you need to have this book. Some new things I found out in this book was the extent of flying by the Luftwaffe and the Allies, the extensive use of napalm (thought it was primarily used in the Pacific), and the successful use of the AR-234 Arado jet as a reconnaissance aircraft and a bomber. The book also has many excellent photos of the participants, the machines and the battlefields.

I thought the book could have been better. He wrote about the air war the way a ground guy would write about the land battle, i.e., did not weave the two stories together. He seldom related the impact of specific air efforts on any ground scheme of maneuver. I was hoping a Joint Staff consultant would write this with a joint perspective. Didn't.

[happy]

Thx for the update Mike

[Colin]

Ironically the first use of primitive napalm (naptha) was in the Spanish Civil War when Adolf Galland and Gunther Lutzow experimented with various flammables in 1937 for ground attack.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Also thanks from me for that update Mike, much appreciated.

Interesting bit of information there Colin, thanks for sharing.