Round and Flat Characters

[Ben]

Round and flat characters are present throughout this story. I am only 56 pages in and this technique is clearly apparent. Round characters in a story are people that change throughout the text to adapt to certain situations. Also, they can undergo change that can occasionally be quite surprising to the audience. Flat characters are people that barely change and are very uninteresting. Throughout the book some characters that are round are Johnny Cade, and Ponyboy. Flat characters are people such as Darry, Two-Bit, and Steve. Does anyone agree or would care to have a conversation about round or flat characters being present in The Outsiders?

[Monty J]

Ben wrote: "Round and flat characters are present throughout this story. ...Round characters in a story are people that change throughout the text to adapt to certain situations. Also, they can undergo change that can occasionally be quite surprising to the audience."

It get's complicated, as described here: https://www.writingclasses.com/toolbo...


"Flat characters are people that barely change and are very uninteresting."

Characters who don't change can be extremely interesting, for instance Curley's wife, in Of Mice and Men. She doesn't change, other than getting killed, but she causes a storm of activity. Lennie doesn't change either, other than getting killed, but he creates havoc.

Marshall Will Kane in High Noon doesn't change. He's a rock that the entire town beats against, even his new bride and his former lover. But he doesn't budge, and that's what makes him fascinating.

So change isn't the determining issue; it's the level of character knowledge imparted to the reader that tweaks our emotions. The better we know someone the more emotionally invested we become.

Flat characters in High Noon would be the "mamacita" who crosses herself as the gang rides past, the station master/telegraph operator, the saloon keeper, the preacher, the old drunkard, the hotel clerk, the judge. Just their appearance tells us their function, and they all stay within their narrowly defined role.

These characters all interact with leading characters, serving to characterize them, or they provide background or move the plot forward but otherwise we know little about them.

(Kane's wife is the one who changes, dramatically, profoundly, but I won't spoil it for you.)


As for The Outsiders, here's the list of characters from Sparknotes(the underlining is mine):

Ponyboy Curtis - The novel’s fourteen-year-old narrator and protagonist, and the youngest of the greasers. Ponyboy’s literary interests and academic accomplishments set him apart from the rest of his gang. Because his parents have died in a car accident, Ponyboy lives with his brothers Darry and Sodapop. Darry repeatedly accuses Ponyboy of lacking common sense, but Ponyboy is a reliable and observant narrator. Throughout the novel, Ponyboy struggles with class division, violence, innocence, and familial love. He matures over the course of the novel, eventually realizing the importance of strength in the face of class bias.
Darrel Curtis - Ponyboy’s oldest brother. Darrel, known as “Darry,” is a twenty-year-old greaser who is raising Ponyboy because their parents have died in a car crash. Strong, athletic, and intelligent, Darry has quit school. He works two jobs to hold the family together. The unofficial leader of the greasers, he becomes an authority figure for Ponyboy. He also makes good chocolate cake, which he and his brothers eat every day for breakfast. The other greasers call him “Superman.”
Sodapop Curtis - Ponyboy’s happy-go-lucky, handsome brother. Sodapop is the middle Curtis boy. Ponyboy envies Sodapop’s good looks and charm. Sodapop plans to marry Sandy, a greaser girl.
Two-Bit Mathews - The joker of Ponyboy’s group. Two-Bit, whose real name is Keith, is a wisecracking greaser who regularly shoplifts. He prizes his sleek black-handled switchblade. He instigates the hostilities between the Socs and the greasers by flirting with Marcia, the girlfriend of a Soc.
Steve Randle - Sodapop’s best friend since grade school. Steve is a seventeen-year-old greaser who works with Sodapop at the gas station. Steve knows everything about cars and specializes in stealing hubcaps. He is cocky and intelligent, tall and lean. He wears his thick hair in a complicated arrangement of swirls. He is also tough—he once held off four opponents in a fight with a broken soda bottle. He sees Ponyboy as Sodapop’s annoying kid brother and wishes Ponyboy would not tag along so often.
Dallas Winston - The toughest hood in Ponyboy’s group of greasers. Dallas, known as “Dally,” is a hardened teen who used to run with gangs in New York. He has an elfin face and icy blue eyes and, unlike his friends, does not put grease in his white-blond hair. Dally’s violent tendencies make him more dangerous than the other greasers, and he takes pride in his criminal record. Dally feels protective of Johnny Cade.
Johnny Cade - A sixteen-year-old greaser with black hair and large, fearful eyes. Though Johnny does not succeed in school, he approaches intellectual matters with steady concentration. The child of alcoholic, abusive parents, he is nervous and sensitive. Since his parents do not care for him, Johnny sees the greasers as his true family. In turn, the older boys, particularly Dally, are protective of him.
Sandy - Sodapop’s girlfriend. Sandy is pregnant with another man’s child and moves to Florida to live with her grandmother. Like the other greaser girls, Sandy appears in the text only when the boys mention her.
Cherry Valance - Bob’s girlfriend, she is a Soc cheerleader whom Ponyboy meets at the movies. Cherry’s real name is Sherri, but people call her Cherry because of her red hair. Ponyboy and Cherry have a great deal in common, and Ponyboy feels comfortable talking to her. Cherry is both offended and intrigued by her encounter with Dally Winston at the drive-in. Cherry admires Dally’s individuality and tells Ponyboy that she could fall in love with Dally. In the days preceding the rumble, Cherry becomes a spy for the greasers.
Marcia - Cherry’s friend and Randy’s girlfriend. Marcia is a pretty, dark-haired Soc who befriends Two-Bit at the drive-in. Marcia and Two-Bit share a sense of humor and a taste for nonsensical musings.
Randy Adderson - Marcia’s boyfriend and Bob’s best friend. Randy is a handsome Soc who eventually sees the futility of fighting. Along with Cherry, Randy humanizes the Socs by showing that some of them have redeeming qualities. Randy helps Ponyboy realize that Socs are as susceptible to pain as anyone else. Randy tries to make peace with Ponyboy after Ponyboy saves the children from the fire, and he refuses to fight in the Soc-greaser rumble.
Bob Sheldon - Cherry’s boyfriend. Bob is the dark-haired Soc who beats up Johnny before the novel begins. Bob has a set of three heavy rings, which he wears when he fights greasers. Bob’s indulgent parents have never disciplined him.
Paul Holden - The husky blond Soc who steps forward to challenge Darry when the rumble begins. Paul and Darry were friends and football teammates in high school.
Jerry Wood - The teacher who accompanies Ponyboy to the hospital after Ponyboy saves the children from the fire. Though an adult and a member of mainstream society, Jerry judges the greasers on their merits instead of automatically branding them juvenile delinquents.
Tim Shepard - The leader of another band of greasers and a friend of Dally. Tim and Dally respect each other, despite occasional conflicts. Ponyboy thinks of Tim as an alley cat, hungry and restless. Tim does not appear in the novel until the night of the rumble, when his gang sides with Ponyboy’s. Ponyboy sees Shepard’s gang as real street hoods and criminals, and realizes that his own gang is little more than a group of friends fighting to survive.
Curly Shepard - The fifteen-year-old brother of Tim Shepard. Curly is stubborn and rough. He cannot go to the rumble because he was put in a reformatory for six months after robbing a liquor store. Tim is proud of Curly’s criminal record.
Mr. Syme - Ponyboy’s English teacher. Mr. Syme expresses concern over Ponyboy’s falling grades. He offers to raise Ponyboy’s grade if he turns in a well-written autobiographical theme. This assignment inspires Ponyboy to write about the greasers and the Socs, and his autobiographical theme turns into the novel The Outsiders.

To save time, I've underlined the characterizing traits, either appearance, how the characters interact, or what they say or think about each other.

The less we know, the flatter the character. Mr Syme would be the flattest character. We know nothing about him except what he says to Ponyboy, not even what he looks like*, but how he interacts with Ponyboy is very important to Ponyboy, and how Ponyboy responds to Mr Syme characterizes Ponyboy, making him more rounded. Ponyboy's transformation and prominence makes him the main character/hero (similar to narrator Nick Carraway in The Great Gatsby.)

*Note how physical appearance is limited or not given for all characters. Sometimes all that's necessary is a tag like "red hair," and not necessarily how it's cut or styled, unless there's something distinctively character-revealing about it.

[Ben]

K.

[Luke]

That is some very interesting information from Monty B. The Outsiders has some round characters. For example, Johnny.

[Ben]

Well Monty J, static and dynamic characters are also apparent. Static and dynamic characters in a story go through lots of actual and perceived change. Actual change is when a something happened in a story that neither the characters nor the readers knew about. Perceived change is something that happens in a story that is surprising and new to the reader but the characters already knew about it.

[Zach]

I agree with both Ben and Monty. Round and flat characters are definitely present throughout this story. I'm only 56 pages in and this technique is clearly shown with many characters. To add onto what Ben said, round characters in a story are people that change throughout the text to adapt to certain situations. Also, they can undergo change that can be quite surprising to the reader and give them more information on that character. So far in the book that I have read up to, flat characters are people that barely change and aren't very interesting. Throughout the book some characters that are round are Johnny Cade, and Ponyboy. Flat characters are people such as Darry, Two-Bit, and Steve.

[Monty J]

Ben wrote: "Actual change is when a something happened in a story that neither the characters nor the readers knew about."

This is confusing. Can you give an example or two?

[Alec]

M0nty J seems like a preety cool guy.

[Sydney]

I feel like the only flat characters in the book are the socs because the only characters Ponyboy interacts with are his gang and the socs. The socs we never learn anything about them because Ponyboy knows nothing about the socs only his gang, a little about Cherry and barely anything about Marcia.

[Ben]

Well Monty J I'm sorry that you feel that way. I actually can clarify this text to help your certain needs. I meant to say actual change is something that occurs in the story. It is when something happens that it a new fact or piece of evidence is introduced in the text about a character. Actual change is something that is new to the reader and the characters in the story. Was this a better way of describing actual change for you Monty J?

[Ben]

Thank you Sydney but i think that some of the greasers based on how far we are in the book, because we're not done, are flat or static.

[Zach]

To add on to what Sydney said, I feel that so far what I've read up to that really the only flat characters are the Socs. Although we do learn a bit about Cherry Valance and Marcia, we never find out really anything about them since Ponyboy doesn't know anything about them and only interacts with his gang members. I also feel like a dynamic character in The Outsiders is Dallas Winston. A dynamic character is someone who changes over time throughout the course of the book. At first, we really only know that Dally is a tough guy who only cares about himself, to someone who is compassionate, still tough, but cares about his friends and their well being, which is shown in the scene where he helps Ponyboy and Johnny before they run away. Anyone have any other thoughts on any dynamic, static, flat or round characters they'd like to talk about?

[Ryan]

I think that all the characters in Ponyboy's gang are round, but some are static. Steve, and Two-Bit are static, not because they are not important but because they don't change throughout the story. Ponyboy changes from the little kid at the beginning to the panicky one involved with murder. He is also round, because he is smart and tough but also a little jumpy and weak compared to the other gang members because he is also the youngest.

[Alec]

The gang is all round because they all change in order to survive from the Socs

[Monty J]

Ben wrote: "...actual change is something that occurs in the story. It is when something happens that it a new fact or piece of evidence is introduced in the text about a character. "

This helps, but it would be more helpful if you could provide an illustration.

I think what you're saying is that "actual change" (as opposed to "perceived change") is some new information external to the character(s), rather than within the character him/herself--something in his/her environment, not in his/her frame of mind or inner make-up.

In my experience, when discussing characters in theater, film or literature, the term "change" has special meaning. It does not refer to a character's external environment; it is something that happens within the personality/mind of the character. The character has evolved. A major shift (change) in the main character means he/she has been "transformed" or enlightened. Their outlook toward the world has undergone an important shift. This is an extremely important concept to understand, because it usually is key to the overall meaning of the story. (This is explained in detail in Lajos Egri's The Art of Dramatic Writing.)

For example, in In the Heat of the Night, the bigoted police chief Gillespie (played brilliantly by Rod Steiger, who won an Oscar for the role) was transformed by his encounter with "Mr. Tibbs", a black police officer from the north who had been passing through town and was accused of murder. (Tibbs was played by Sydney Poiter, who also got an Oscar.) Gillespie's outlook toward Tibbs, and through him the greater universe of all of black people, underwent a major shift (change), and through Gillespie, the bigots in the audience had the opportunity to become transformed (myself included.)

So when "change" is used in reference to a character in a story, it is important to be clear whether we're talking about the character him/herself or his/her environment.

[Ben]

Ok Monty J. I'll provide an example. I'll give you an example from The Outsiders. In the opening scene it claims that Ponyboy wants to be more like Paul Newman. Of course, at the time period of this story Paul Newman was every girls dream man and every man and boy wanted to be him. When Ponyboy says that he wants to be more like Paul Newman it is perceived change because he already new that he wanted to be like Paul Newman, it's just new evidence or information towards the reader.

[Ellie]

I agree with what everyone said. Dally is very dynamic. At first he is a very careless guy who got into a lot of trouble,but after Johnny tells Dally that Johnny killed bob, Dally handles it very maturely and surprises the readers of how sensible he became.

[Ben]

Actual change isn't very common but I will look for an examaple and when i find one i'll comment it ok Monty J?

[Ben]

example*

[Zach]

Indeed Ellie. Dally is certainly very dynamic. As I had exclaimed before, at first he is a very careless guy who did some dumb things and really only cared about himself, but after time we find out another whole side of him. We find this out when Johnny tells Dally that Johnny kills Bob, and Dally handles it very maturely and surprises the readers of how caring and considerate he became.

[Monty J]

Ben wrote: "When Ponyboy says that he wants to be more like Paul Newman it is perceived change because he already new that he wanted to be like Paul Newman, it's just new evidence or information towards the reader."

Much better. Now we're getting somewhere.

What you are calling "change," sounds to me like what I would call new information or details about a character. It's not new to the character, but to the reader it is new. The character, Ponyboy, always knew he liked Paul Newman and wanted to be like him. But the reader didn't know this until he/she read it.

To me, change is different. If Ponyboy used to dislike Paul Newman for some reason and suddenly began to like him, this is what I would call change because Ponyboy had a shift in outlook toward Paul Newman, or a shift in his own inner desires to be in the world a certain way.

[Monty J]

Ben wrote: "Actual change isn't very common but I will look for an examaple and when i find one i'll comment it ok Monty J?"

Tres cool.

[Zach]

Monty J, you rated this book 3/5 stars. How so?

[Monty J]

Zach wrote: "Monty J, you rated this book 3/5 stars. How so?"

That was a long time ago. I will re-rate it 4/5.

I rated it low because of the crudeness of the writing, before realizing that that same roughness coming from the voice of a 16-year-old, lended authenticity.

[Ben]

What do you mean by the crudeness of the writing Monty J?

[Monty J]

Ben wrote: "What do you mean by the crudeness of the writing Monty J?"

"Crude" may not be the best word. Unrefined is better. The narrator does a lot of telling rather than showing and violates the first-person point of view too much, drawing me out of the story. I could give examples, but I don't have the book anymore.

When a first-person narrator starts telling what is in some other character's head and providing information they weren't privy to without providing some transitional device, it makes the reader wonder, "How does she know that?"

Fitzgerald does this in The Great Gatsby to a frustrating extent, but he gets away with it by using transitional devices. For example, Nick Carraway infers that he was either at the inquest for Myrtle's death or read about it in the paper, then goes on to paraphrase eyewitness testimony of the car crash by Michaelis and others who actually witnessed the accident or saw the car immediately afterward, before Nick and Tom arrived at the scene. Nevertheless, Nick gives a richly detailed account and with language that Michaelis wasn't capable of, embellishing and providing his own emphasis.

Nick violates first-person so much throughout the book that he seems omniscient, and he was ridiculed by critics for it. But he gets away with it because the story's so good.

The Outsiders is an amazing book for a 16-18-year-old to have written.

[Alec]

I know Monty J, but what are you trying to say?

[Monty J]

Alec wrote: "I know Monty J, but what are you trying to say?"

I'm trying to explain why I changed my first rating from 3 to 4. Reading Gatsby made me realize that even great writers struggle with the limitations of first-person narration.

[Ben]

Thanks Monty J.

[Ben]

Static and dynamic characters are important in this story. Static characters include people such as the Socs because there relationships with the Greasers hardly ever changes and stays strained throughout the text Dynamic characters include Ponyboy, Johnny, and most of the gang. Do you agree Monty J?

[Zach]

Thanks Monty J for your further explanation. To add on to what you said, I think that crude was not a good word, but the word unrefined was a better used word. Although you say this and I do somewhat agree, I think that by looking at some other book that have relation to The Outsiders, such as in The Great Gatsby, that the book might not have been the most elegant book, for say, but it still was somewhat precise with the amount of details within the story and the characters. Also, I found a quote by the great DeAngelo Williams, and he said, "I want everyone to know there is always someone there for you." I think this is a great quote that relates Darry, Sodapop and Ponyboy because I feel like that their relationship of only having each other really relates to the quote because it I feel that a thing that one of them would say is I want everyone to know there is always someone there for you, especially Sodapop talking to Ponyboy.

[Alec]

I know Monty J, but what does the Great Gatsby have to do with dynamic and static characters in the outsiders?

[Monty J]

Alec wrote: "I know Monty J, but what does the Great Gatsby have to do with dynamic and static characters in the outsiders?"

It doesn't. I was illustrating to Ben how using a first-person narrator limits the way information can effectively be revealed to the reader.

[Ben]

Thank you for providing exact illustrations to my good man Alec Mr.Monty J

[Zach]

Monty J, I agree, it doesn't. As you said, "I was illustrating to Ben how using a first-person narrator limits the way information can effectively be revealed to the reader." This contributes to The Outsiders by showing how The Great Gatsby influences The Outsiders and how using a first-person narrator limits the way information can effectively be revealed to the reader.

[Ben]

Foil characters are also present in The Outsiders. Such characters include most of the greasers because they highlight differences and make them stand out in each other. An example of a piece that I wrote on foil characters is
In The Outsiders by S.E Hinton, the characters are foils for each. Foil characters are people in a story that can highlight or underline specific traits about another character. Sodapop Curtis in The Outsiders is a foil character for Darry Curtis. On page 8 the author contrasted Soda Pop and Darry with expertise, “I had to grin at him--- Soda can make you grin no matter what. I guess it's because he's always grinning so much himself. "You're crazy, Soda, out of your mind." This shows how Soda is easy going and Pony really loves him. On page 44 it describes how Darry is more serious than Soda and lets his emotions get the best of him, "You don't yell at him!" I shouted. Darry wheeled around and slapped me so hard that it knocked me against the door.” Additionally, on page 6, it describes Darry’s relationship with Pony, “He was shaking me and I wished he'd stop. I was dizzy enough anyway. I could tell it was Darry though--- partly because of the voice and partly because Darry's always rough with me without meaning to be.” This quotes portrays what the two think about each other. Also, on page 8, it describes Pony and Soda’s relationship Soda rubbed my hair. "You're an okay kid, Pony." This shows how Soda and Pony don’t have such a strained relationship like Pony and Darry. All in all, throughout The Outsiders, the reader is commonly reminded that brothers Soda Pop and Darry Curtis are foil characters for each other.

Does everybody agree?

[Zach]

I agree. Also, in The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton, foil is brought up between characters. For example, Ponyboy is a foil for Two-Bit, and vise-versa. Ponyboy is very quiet person, and Two-Bit is always talking. A foil is a character that highlights the characteristics of another character through sharp contrast. In Ponyboy’s journal, it says, “He couldn’t stop making funny remarks to save his life.” He also got his name because “He always had to his two-bits worth in” (9). As for Ponyboy, it says in his journal that, “Usually pretty quiet around people, even the gang.” To continue, when he’s talking to Johnny in the church, he tells him, “I know," I said. ‘Well,’ I said, thinking this over, “You ain't like any of the gang. I mean, I couldn't tell Two-Bit or Steve or even Darry about the sunrise and clouds and stuff. I couldn't even remember that poem around them. I mean, they just don't dig. Just you and Sodapop. And maybe Cherry Valance” (67). This shows that Ponyboy will talk around very few people, even his closest friends. To conclude, these examples show how the major contrast between Two-Bit and Ponyboy, and how their foil makes each other’s traits stand out even more.

[Alec]

MOnty J, can you explain the Great Gatsby to me. I have never read it.

[Monty J]

In a sentence: A dreamer achieves his dream, only to destroy it by being corrupt. It is set in Long Island, New York, during the "Roaring" 1920s' run-up to the Great Depression. The main characters are wealthy.

My review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Ben]

I'm afraid Monty J if you forgot, the conversation is about The Outsiders nit Great Gatsby.

[Ben]

Not*

[Monty J]

Ben wrote: "I'm afraid Monty J if you forgot, the conversation is about The Outsiders nit Great Gatsby."

(Just answering a question by Alec.)

[Ben]

Anyway I will be starting a conversation about dialogue in The Outsiders anyone that wants to join feel free.

[Zach]

Certainly mon frere.