Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion
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Book 3, Chapter 8, I
"'What your father suggests. You cannot just "help yourself" to a woman. Even your father...' Demelza paused, aware that Ross in fact had once done just that. She pricked her finger. 'I mean, you cannot take a woman against her consent. You can go and ask. You can go and demand. But--unless you are a--a drunken brigand, it is her decision at the end of it.'
Jeremy said: 'I think Father was suggesting a half-way stage.'"
Demelza seems to be thinking of the Ross-Elizabeth encounter at this point, which Jeremy doesn't know about. Jeremy thinks that Ross means something more like strong persuasion than rape.
It's possible that Ross had in mind the situation as it stood when he returned from America to find Elizabeth engaged to Francis. The fact that Elizabeth confessed years later to him that she was mistaken in thinking herself in love with Francis, may have caused Ross to conclude that he could have successfully persuaded Elizabeth to change her mind if HE had set in motion a "contrary process" at that stage of the game.
Ross' drastic advise may stem from not wanting to see his son miss the window of opportunity that he himself allowed to close so many years ago.
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Good point, Mara! I wasn't looking back that far, but you are absolutely right. When Ross returned to find Elizabeth and Francis engaged, he accepted defeat and made no real effort to speak to Elizabeth BEFORE the wedding.
MARA - this is brilliant!!! I never read this passage with that in mind. Going to re-read this week with a different slant. MAKES A LOT OF SENSE!! Dear, dear Ross all of the bits and pieces in your head...
Mara, I felt the same way! I wasn't thinking of the 'coming home from war' scenario, but it sure fits. For example, if Liz had turned Fran down, then this is when Ross would have taken charge and done what he told Jeremy essentially. That being said, I don't think he regrets his life in ANY way though. Basically, I saw it as him just not wanting to see his son suffer anymore than he already has. Elizabeth or no Elizabeth, I believe this would always be the case for him as a parent. He saw a way it could work out for Jeremy, and told him to go for it since there was now nothing standing in his way.
Sarah wrote: "I don't think he regrets his life in ANY way..."I agree that his advice to Jeremy to "take" Cuby does NOT imply that is what Ross wishes he would have done with Elizabeth. On the contrary, I think the advice reflects Ross' awareness of his unique good fortune that Demelza came along and "redeemed" him after his bitter disappointment. The probability of a "Demelza" to redeem Jeremy was very unlikely, and thus Ross' drastic advice.
That's exactly how I feel Mara! Great point. Demelza was a once in a lifetime thing and lightning doesn't strike twice etc etc.. Ross knew he happened to get lucky and find someone BETTER (loved when he said that!) but for Jeremy, he knows that yes he might find someone, yes he might learn to love that person. But better and more than cuby? No. Plus I believe he asked if cuby ever said she didn't feel the same or something? And ICould be wrong but I think jer knew she felt something for him.. Thus Ross says go for it etc because as you said, THIS is what he didn't have with Elizabeth..that confirmation she felt the same..so he let it go. So to Ross, it's ridiculous to him that both of them would sit on this info and not act on it when they could do so and be happy. And again, I don't mean to say Ross would change anything about his life! His worked out for the better due to lack of that info and he's grateful and knows how lucky he is because that def doesn't happen everyday! Their world almost isn't set up for it because they aren't able to pick and choose from all walks of life/status like we are today. So no, Jeremy def wouldn't get the chance Ross had!
In the second reading of this series it's nice to identify glimpses of young Ross in Jeremy's thoughts and actions, especially in regard to Cuby. It makes me wonder now whether Winston Graham intentionally provided us with something of a glimpse of what Ross' happiness would have looked like with Elizabeth if he'd never gone to war, or if Elizabeth had been waiting for him, or if Francis had given her up seeing that Ross had returned. It's as if Jeremy and Cuby's requited love is a glance at what Ross & Elizabeth's could have been, if only....
Yes, Ross was advocating rape. He was advising Jeremy to rape Cuby in an effort to get her to change her mind and settle for Jeremy as a husband.Yes, this advice made Demelza realize that Ross had raped Elizabeth some twenty years earlier.
And yes, Ross DID RAPE Elizabeth.
Drush76 wrote: "Yes, Ross was advocating rape. He was advising Jeremy to rape Cuby in an effort to get her to change her mind and settle for Jeremy as a husband.Yes, this advice made Demelza realize that Ross ha..."
The advice that Ross is giving Jeremy is ambiguous. I could not tell whether he was actually advocating that Jeremy take Cuby against her will, since he remembered doing so with Elizabeth and the horrible consequences of that act; or was telling Jeremy to gamble on his powers of persuasion to make Cuby agree to elope with him. Either way, I doubt very much that Jeremy would have raped Cuby if she had not agreed. He might have stalked off in a funk or a temper, but I can't see Jeremy behaving as violently as Ross did.
Some folks are inserting a more modern narrative...just because Ross pretty much raped Elizabeth, he somehow decades later put that idea in his son's head? THIS IS A NOVEL, by our beloved Winston Graham...but obviously Jeremy was NOT that bold and reckless to "take her" by force
It's really sickening to read these excuses for Ross' behavior. What makes it really sickening for me is that these excuses come from other women.
Book 3, Chapter 7, IV
"...'All right--her heart is governed by her head. But perhaps you have not tried hard enough to institute a contrary process.'
Jeremy stopped. 'What in blazes do you know about it? In any case, what do you mean?'
Ross stopped also. His blue-grey eyes were almost hidden by their lids. He stared at the swirling mist.
'I mean, why don't you take her?'
Jeremy swallowed. 'What in hell do you mean?'
'Just what I say. Go over and take her. She owes allegiance to no one now. She cannot have found some new suitor yet. Ride over to Caerhays. She belongs to you more than to anyone else.'
'Are you --joking?'
'No. I was never more serious.'
There was a long pause. Jeremy said: 'This is the nineteenth century.'"