Homer - The Iliad - Informal Buddy Read; Start November 7, 2015

[Cosmic]

A map of the Iliad:
http://blog.oup.com/2013/11/maps-of-t...

[Geoffreyjen]

Response to Cosmic :

(view spoiler)[

The wikipedia entry for "Mycenaean Greece" : "the Trojan War....was supposed to have happened in the late 13th–early 12th century BC, when a coalition of small Greek states under the king of Mycenae, besieged the walled city of Troy."

And further down : "In ancient Greek tradition, there were several states, like the ones recorded in the Iliad's Catalogue of Ships, as well as discovered by archaeologists. Each Mycenaean kingdom was in principle governed from the palace, which exercised control over most, if not all, industries within its realm."

The translator in my version of the Iliad, Peter Green, calls these rulers "warlords" - essentially the landscape was carved up into these small kingdoms. The wikipedia entry shows a map with 12 states, but this is only lower Greece, there must have been many more in upper Greece and throughout what is modern day Turkey. So these are not simply commanders and captains, but rulers with palaces and small kingdoms.

(hide spoiler)]

[Cosmic]

Geoffrey wrote: "Response to Cosmic :



The wikipedia entry for "Mycenaean Greece" : "the Trojan War....was supposed to have happened in the late 13th–early 12th century BC, when a coalition of small Greek states ..."

(view spoiler)[

When i looked at the map it really helped me picture what you said about these "kings and prince". Warlords is a good description. So when you look at the maps that i referenced you see where Agamemnon and Ulysses and Achilles was from and it is like a state or small territory.

I feel like i am getting more of my head wrapped around this story! Very excited about that. (hide spoiler)]

[Cosmic]

Book 3 (view spoiler)[

The Trojans and the coalition of Greek States meet. Menelaus, who is Helen's husband, sees Paris, or Alexander as he is sometimes called. Paris is Helen's captor. Menelaus wants to kill Paris on the spot but Agamemnon stops him. Besides Paris tries to make himself invisible. Hector, the Trojan general, calls him out. He shames him and says Listen we would not be in this situation except that you won't give up your concubine, Helen. So Paris says that he would like to have a dual with Menelaus. Whoever wins the dual gets to have Helen and all the treasure that is hers. Agamemnon agrees and performs a special ceremony or rite where by both parties and armies are supposed to be bound.

Helen is told that her husband and Paris are going to have a dual. So she goes to the top of one of the gates. Paris's father Priam, ask Helen to tell him certain men that are on the battlefield. One is Armageddon,who is strong. The next one is Ulysses. Helen says that he was from Ithaca, a barren place, but he knows all sorts of stratagem and moves. Priam describes him as a ram instructing his ewes. After being told it is Ulysses he tells Helen about his meeting him. How his mannerisms are like a king. He seemed stupid. He wasn't a polish oratator but when he spoke his deep voice was commanding and his thoughts came as fast as snow flakes. Then the people could not help but listen and respect him.

[I marked that because it is what i am looking for. More information about Ulysses]

Menelaus manages to graze Paris. His sword falls to pieces. And the gods are against him. When he drags Paris by the helmet, choking him, Aphrodite saves him and takes him to his bed. She appears to Helen as an older woman and advises her to do her "duty". Helen is offended but one look from Aphrodite and she is convinced, if she wants to keep her looks then she better go see what Paris wants.

Meanwhile the Greek coalition is looking for Paris. They cannot find him and they are sure that he is dead and they are asking for Helen and the treasure.

Something i like about Helen, she is a weaver and a historian. She is weaving a cloth that tells the story of this war. I wonder what it looks like (hide spoiler)]

[Cosmic]

So where is everyone in this book? Have you started?

[Dora]

Book 2, trying to move forward :)

[Cosmic]

Dora wrote: "Book 2, trying to move forward :)"

Good to hear from you! Just one page at a time.

[Cosmic]

Book 4. (Edited out the comment about Mars, after Groffrey pointed out a discrepancy. Thank you Groffrey I also expanded on the notes I made about the gods and goddesses. I studied them more, see message 61.(view spoiler)[

"As above so below."

We have the gods arguing in Olympus.
Zeus and his wife and sister Juno, have come to a truce. You can try to save Troy but when i want to come against one of your pet cities you have to give way Zeus says to Juno.


We have Hera (who is also known as Juno) who is the wife of Zeus.
http://www.ancient.eu/Hera/

We have Athena who is also called Minerva
http://www.ancient.eu/athena/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva

is the goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, war strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill in ancient Greek religion and mythology. Minerva is the Roman goddess identified with Athena.[2] Athena is known for her calm temperament, as she moves slowly to anger. She is noted to have only fought for just reasons, and would not fight without a purpose.[3]

Then there is Aphrodite.
She saved Paris who is also called Alexandus
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphro...

Some back story

The Judgement of Paris

The gods are all invited to the marriage of Peleus and Thetis (the eventual parents of Achilles), except Eris, goddess of discord. In revenge, Eris makes a golden Apple of Discord inscribed kallistēi ("to the fairest one"), which she throws among the goddesses. Aphrodite, Hera, and Athena all claim it.

Zeus delegates the choice to a mortal, Paris. The goddesses offer him bribes. Hera offers him supreme power, and Athena offers him wisdom, fame, and glory in battle. Aphrodite offers him Helen of Troy, the most beautiful mortal woman in the world, as a wife. As the goddess of desire, she causes Paris to become inflamed with desire for Helen at first sight, and he awards the Apple to her. Helen is already married to King Menelaus of Sparta. The other two goddesses are enraged by this, and through Helen's abduction by Paris, they bring about the Trojan War. (hide spoiler)]

[Geoffreyjen]

Just a point, Cosmic, I don't think Athena is Mars - even though they both deal with war. Ares, or Mars, is the God of War. Athena is the goddess of wisdom, but plays a helper role, especially with regard to Odysseus, within the war. They are actually brother and sister...

[Cosmic]

Geoffrey wrote: "Just a point, Cosmic, I don't think Athena is Mars - even though they both deal with war. Ares, or Mars, is the God of War. Athena is the goddess of wisdom, but plays a helper role, especially with..."
Ok I appreciate you questioning anything i write. I will read it (in print) so i can get these gods straight. It is important to me, so please let me know when I have missed a point. Thank you.

[Cosmic]

Book 4 working on the gods. (view spoiler)[
Jove Jupiter and Zeus are the same.
Sometimes Zeus is depicted as an eagle. I will not see the eagle the same again.

Hebe is the daughter of Zeus.

Hebe was supposed to have the power to give eternal youth, and in art is typically seen with her father in the guise of an eagle, often offering a cup to him.

I am including a description of Saturn to contrast Zeus, his son.

Saturn is a Roman god. He is Zeus father. He was the first god of the Capitol, He is the god of agriculture.
His reign was depicted as a Golden Age of plenty and peace. The Temple of Saturn in the Roman Forum housed the state treasury. In December, he was celebrated at what is perhaps the most famous of the Roman festivals, the Saturnalia, a time of feasting, role reversals, free speech, gift-giving and revelry. Saturn the planet and Saturday are both named after the god.
Saturn was called From us in Greek mythology.

If we don't have food or plenty we get wars

In Greek mythology, Cronus (in Roman he is Saturn) was the leader and youngest of the first generation of Titans, the divine descendants of Uranus, the sky, and Gaia, the earth. He overthrew his father and ruled during the mythological Golden Age, until he was overthrown by his own son Zeus and imprisoned in Tartarus.

Juno is the equivalent to the Greek good Hera.

She is the sister and wife of Zeus. She is the mother of Mars and Vulcan.

Together with Jupiter and Minerva (see below), was worshipped as a triad on the Capitol (Juno Capitolina) in Rome. Or Capitol Hill.
Hera was known for her jealous and vengeful nature against Zeus's lovers and offspring, but also against mortals who crossed her,
Paris also earned Hera's hatred by choosing Aphrodite as the most beautiful goddess.

“Dread son of Saturn,” said Juno, “what, pray, is the meaning of all this? Is my trouble, then, to go for nothing, and the sweat that I have sweated, to say nothing of my horses, while getting the people together against Priam and his children? Do as you will, but we other gods shall not all of us approve your counsel.”


Minerva was the Roman goddess of wisdom and sponsor of arts, trade, and strategy. She was born with weapons from the head of Jupiter.[1] She was motherless.

From Bulfinch: "Minerva (Pallas, Athene), the goddess of wisdom, was the offspring of Jupiter, without a mother. She sprang forth from his head completely armed. Her favorite bird was the owl, and the plant sacred to her the olive."
From the 2nd century BC onwards, the Romans equated her with the Greek goddess Athena.[2] She was the virgin goddess of music, poetry, medicine, wisdom, commerce, weaving, crafts, and magic.[3] She is often depicted with her sacred creature, an owl usually named as the "owl of Minerva",[4] which symbolizes that she is connected to wisdom.

I think it might have been from Bulfinch's Age of Fables that i got that Athena was involved in war? In the essence of craftiness, strategy, and thievery. But i am going to go check that out now.

No, i found who that was:

"Mercury (Hermes) was the son of Jupiter (Zeus) and Maia. He presided over commerce, wrestling, and other gymnastic exercises, even over thieving, and everything, in short, which required skill and dexterity. He was the messenger of Jupiter, and wore a winged cap and winged shoes. He bore in his hand a rod entwined with two serpents, called the caduceus."


VenusRoman goddess whose functions encompassed love, beauty, sex, fertility, prosperity and desire. In Roman mythology, she was the mother of the Roman people through her son, Aeneas, who survived the fall of Troy and fled to Italy. Julius Caesar claimed her as his ancestor. Venus was central to many religious festivals, and was revered in Roman religion under numerous cult titles."
Venus' signs were for the most part the same as Aphrodite's. Which are roses and myrtle, especially a crown of myrtle.
In the Odyssey, she is portrayed as preferring Ares, the volatile god of war, because she is attracted to his violent nature.

Aphrodite (who is Venus) is a major figure in the Trojan War legend. She is a contestant in the "Judgement of Paris" (see message 58), which leads to the war. She had been the lover of the Trojan Anchises, and mother of his son Aeneas. Later, during the war, she saves Aeneas from Diomedes, who wounds her. (hide spoiler)]

[Cosmic]

Book 4 (view spoiler)[

The book starts with the gods in Olympus arguing because there side is on the wrong side of Zeus.


Zeus gives in a little. He lets Minerva infiltrate the Trojan. She convinces one of the to shoot Menelaus. He does with a view that he made from an ox horn. I had not thought about an ox giving you a weapon. He also uses the sinew for the note.

This of course offends the Greeks and the war begins. Agamemnon goes through his troops and encourages them or scolds them.

Ulysses he accuses of being entitled. But because Ulysses is still valuable. He is cunning. Agamemnon eats his words. Sags that Ulysses and he are on the same page and he over reacted.

Something that i admired in Ulysses is that he was loyal to his comrade.

There are a lot of casualties on both sides. (hide spoiler)]

[Cosmic]

Ok i haven't been reading the Iliad for a few days. I must be going through withdrawals. So i am starting book 5.

[Cosmic]

I am on book nine. It is getting much easier to read and follow the story line. I am enjoying it now.

How are the rest of you doing?

[Cosmic]

Well today i finished the Iliad. It was better than i thought it would be and the ending was surprising, maybe because i was led to believe in a different ending and kept looking for it. I am so excited to have read the Iliad and will begin to read the Odyssey very soon.

[Geoffreyjen]

You're ahead of me...I'm still at Book 17. I've stalled there, not because of the reading, but because life has been very demanding lately. I'll give it a push and finish up...

[Cosmic]

Geoffrey wrote: "You're ahead of me...I'm still at Book 17. I've stalled there, not because of the reading, but because life has been very demanding lately. I'll give it a push and finish up..."

I did have to push myself a bit today! I thought it'd i get out done today i read it in a month and that was fantastic. I may go back and listen to the end in Alexander Pope version. I did write down a few things in paper. I think I will digest this story a bit and write a review. So since you are on book 17 I think I will let that be my starting point for Alexander Pope.

[Geoffreyjen]

I finally finished reading The Iliad. See my review here. I missed your chapter by chapter synopses, Cosmic :-(

Here is a recap of the highlights from my review :
(view spoiler)[
Gritty, even gory descriptions of battles
Luminous writing
Extraordinary attention to detail
"Characters" full of, well, character, both positive and negative sides of what it is to be human
Intricate portrayal of the gods, more tinged with cynicism than praise I would say
A huge feeling of satisfaction when I finished - I like the ending, with its joint focus on grieving and celebrating.
A really good introduction to the character of Odysseus, even though his part in the Iliad is relatively minor.
Overall, I loved the book!
(hide spoiler)]

Now, as you said, Cosmic, on to The Odyssey

[Cosmic]

I know I am sorry that I didn't keep that up but I thought I might be intimidating (or really acting smarter than i am). I have been listening to the professor from the Great Courses Series. I was disappointed that I had missed a few things (or forgot a few thing).

One thing that she pointed out was that Achilles not taking part in the war might be seen by one segment of our population as 'individualism'. But to the Greeks it was not human. To be human is to be part of a community. So to the Greeks Achilles behavior is unfeeling.

It is interesting that we have 'art' and 'war'. Seems a lot of art is about or glorifies war. We love that mythology. But also we are convinced and manipulated by this kind of herd mentality. The Greeks have left their families for years and made a career out of war. Why? Because of Helen? Or oil? Or religion? Or water? Or gold? A lot have died in the process and been tossed in the water. I had not gotten the conection between the water the Trojans were being tossed in and the god that was angry at this defilment of his water.

Another thing from the professor, that I remembered, was that using an bow and arrow was for cowards. What would Homer say today if he wrote an epic about the Iraqi war or Vietnam?

I planned to get through some of my books before the end of the year and work on the Odyssey starting January. The schedule for Ulysses is not supposed to be too grinding, so i think there will be time.

I am glad i read it but only feel like i touched the surface compared to the insight the professor has.

I will read your review now. Glad you stuck in there.