Readalong of Brideshead Revisited

[Leslie]

Terry wrote: "Leslie wrote: "On another topic, do you think it possible that Charles' mother didn't die in WW1 but ran off with another man?"
What makes you think that? ..."

A few things -- her going off to Serbia with the Red Cross leaving her husband & son struck me as a bit odd. And Charles says "My father has been rather odd in the head ever since.". Then early in Chapter 2, the cousin Jasper says: "You know as well as I do that since your -- well since the war, your father has not been really in touch with things..."

Both these statements could be indications that she didn't just die -- or they could just be British embarrassment when dealing with emotion. I just felt that they could be interpreted in either way & it would not be unheard of for a father to hide from his son the fact that the mother has run off.

[Charbel]

I don't know whether she ran off or not, but given Ryder senior's personality I can hardly blame her.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

It sounds like his father has early onset Alzheimer's..

[Leslie]

Charbel wrote: "I don't know whether she ran off or not, but given Ryder senior's personality I can hardly blame her."

But perhaps he wasn't like that before -- that seems to be the opinion of both Charles & his cousin. Probably he was a little like that but not as bad...

[Leslie]

I am going a little slowly with this - just finished Chapter 4. Having now read about Charles & his father's interactions, I understand your comment better Charbel!!

[LauraT]

Charbel wrote: "I don't know whether she ran off or not, but given Ryder senior's personality I can hardly blame her."

Ivthink she simply saw the war as a way of excaping a marriage! I've finished yesterday the book and liked it much. As usual on week ends I keep far away from pc - I'm going to Rome to see an exhibition if impresssionists paintings fron the D'Orsey museum using my tablet now! - so I'll write longer tomorrow or wednesday from my office.
For now I do agree with - who was it? - said that words and sentences are better than tv adaptation. That sentence about love and marriage stands with you all along.
And you were right, after some chapter the story gets into a straight line and all pieces gets to their places. But so many things to discuss here: drinking, male fruendship, religion, catholicism, family relationships...
I'll wait a couple of days to let other get ahead

[Charbel]

LauraT wrote: "Charbel wrote: "I don't know whether she ran off or not, but given Ryder senior's personality I can hardly blame her."

Ivthink she simply saw the war as a way of excaping a marriage! I've finished..."

I'm glad you liked it Laura!
Yes, it's a novel of many themes, but that's part of its charm.

As for Charles' mother, she could really just be dead.

[Charbel]

Leslie wrote: "I am going a little slowly with this - just finished Chapter 4. Having now read about Charles & his father's interactions, I understand your comment better Charbel!!"

Yes, can you imagine how awkward the dinner conversations are in that household? But I've also found that the father serves as a sort of comic relief for the more serious aspects of the story.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I started a few books at the same time as this one and I've been holding back reading this because I didn't want to get ahead of everyone but I really want to read Brideshead to the finish, so I'll just use spoilers when I post.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

It seems like Charles is very close to Sebastian, however I find it odd that (view spoiler)[ as Sebastian goes into depression and pulls away from his family and Brideshead, Charles becomes more intimately involved with the family and the estate, almost as if he wants to become Sebastian and take his place there... (hide spoiler)]

[Leslie]

Terry wrote: "It seems like Charles is very close to Sebastian, however I find it odd that [spoilers removed]"

I viewed that as cause and effect -- (view spoiler)[As Charles became more involved with the family, Sebastian felt more isolated and spied upon so more depressed and drank more. (hide spoiler)] But the relationships are complex and I don't really understand them!

I am done with Book 1 now. I was struck by a commment in Chapter 4 by Lord Marchmain's mistress Cara:
(view spoiler)[" 'Sebastian is in love with his own childhood. That will make him very unhappy. ...' " (hide spoiler)]

[Kristen]

ugh, I am struggling to get into this book. I think I have too many distractions this month. will have to come back to it at a later time. Enjoy!

[Leslie]

Kristen wrote: "ugh, I am struggling to get into this book. I think I have too many distractions this month. will have to come back to it at a later time. Enjoy!"

That's OK Kristen - the thread will be around for you to add in your comments when you do read it if you want. December can be a challenging month to get any reading done at all!

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Leslie wrote: "Terry wrote: "It seems like Charles is very close to Sebastian, however I find it odd that [spoilers removed]"

I viewed that as cause and effect -- [spoilers removed] But the relationships are com..."

I think Sebastian must have had a wonderful, nurturing childhood - not so much due to his parents, as to his beloved Nanny. However, he perhaps was tramatized by his father's departure and had inherited his father's propensity to drink excessively to escape his mother's guilt trips.
He also seems to find it hard to grow up and face reality, with his education, family and society in general.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Kristen wrote: "ugh, I am struggling to get into this book. I think I have too many distractions this month. will have to come back to it at a later time. Enjoy!"

Don't worry Kristen, I have started about 7 books this month, some pertaining to the Christmas season. Now I have to winnow down to the ones I think I will actually read and enjoy. I think you are right in saving this book for later - it is so beautifully written that is would be a shame to rush through it like a thriller (which it's not!)

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Leslie wrote: "Terry wrote: "It seems like Charles is very close to Sebastian, however I find it odd that [spoilers removed]"

I viewed that as cause and effect -- [spoilers removed] But the relationships are com..."

Yes Leslie, I think you are right about my first spoiler. That makes more sense.

[LauraT]

Terry wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Terry wrote: "It seems like Charles is very close to Sebastian, however I find it odd that [spoilers removed]"

I viewed that as cause and effect -- [spoilers removed] But the relati..."

Yes probably this is one of the reason of his behaviur. But I was thinking, maybe also influenced by the extenseìive reading of Zolà I've made these past years, will it not also be the case of "genertics"; of predisposition? (view spoiler)[I'm mainly thinking of heis becoming an alcoslist; his father was one (hide spoiler)]

[Diane S ☔]

Just finished Chapter two. I agree Terry, he is definitely over the top about Sebastian, plays into some romantic notion, the estate included. I like his Uncle Jasper, who tries to warn him about his friends, but of course it has no impact. Still I liked that he tried. His whole family situation seems rather tragic.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Actually, it's not just Sebastian, it seems like almost all the characters inhabit their own little worlds within a world - the old nanny sitting upstairs in the nursery at Brideshead.
Sebastian's mother holding court in her room, and her private church.
Sebastian's father hiding out in Italy.
The sister coming and going whenever she wants.
Charles's father spending all day in his library, then reading a book at dinner.
The flamboyant friend, Anthony Blanche, and his escapades.

[Charbel]

In the beginning of the book, Charles says that he saw in Sebastian the happy childhood he never had. This sparked a fascination with Sebastian, which resulted in strong feelings of friendship. Later on, Charles matured; finding the rest of Flytes more mature as well but just as charming as Sebastian. Sebastian, on the other hand, remained childish.
Add into the mix, the massive themes of religion, identity, and family dynamics, and what you have is an extremely complex, but glorious, mess.

[Leslie]

LauraT wrote: "Terry wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Terry wrote: "It seems like Charles is very close to Sebastian, however I find it odd that [spoilers removed]"

I viewed that as cause and effect -- [spoilers removed] ..."

Genetics (or to use the old-fashioned term, family disposition) certainly plays a role in Sebastian - not just in the drinking but maybe also in his method of coping (or refusing to cope). Or at least, that is how it strikes me at this point (~ a third done).

[Kristen]

Thank you Leslie and Terry. I hope everyone enjoys the book. It looks like one I will definitely enjoy too -- at the right time. :)

[Diane S ☔]

And don't forget the teddy bear. lol

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I am in book 2 and I was surprised at what little regard Charles has for (view spoiler)[ his own children. Since he seemed to have had a lonely childhood, I would think that he would want his children's life to be different. He and Celia obviously just married because it seemed to be the thing to do, they were in the same social circles, she could help him with is career, etc.

I think the only one Charles ever really loved is Sebastian and happens to fall in love with Julia now because he misses Sebastian and she is the closest thing to being him. (hide spoiler)]

[LauraT]

You're right: not even wanting to see his daughter seemed terrible to me. ANd I also think you're right about Julia and Sebastian. At least that's what I thought

[Charbel]

Terry wrote: "I am in book 2 and I was surprised at what little regard Charles has for his own children. Since he seemed to have had a lonely childhood, I would think that he would want his children's life to b..."

I agree. I always thought that was particularly cruel; I feel like Celia deserved more.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I don't feel bad (view spoiler)[
for Celia - she saw an opportunity to make a big splash in society, through the art world, by association and pushed his work on influential people. She seemed to be playing a part. I don't think she was ever in love with him. (hide spoiler)]

[Leslie]

Writing on the app so I couldn't see Terry's spoiler but am a bit confused. I have finished Book 2, just about to start Book 3 and I haven't met any Celia yet...

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Sorry, I can't do spoilers on my app either - maybe Celia enters the story later than Book 2.

[Charbel]

What's your opinion of Anthony Blanche?

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I thought he was a pointless character. The author developed him in an interesting way, then we never heard much about him until the end of the book. Even then it was kind of "so what?" to me.

[Diane S ☔]

Don't think much of him either way. Do love Sebastian's little sister. Not as far as most of you, have only finished chapter five.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I finished the book yesterday and gave it 5 stars. This was one of the few (non religious) books I have read where religion was an important part of the story.
(view spoiler)[
I read that the author's intention was to have each character accept divine grace in their own way - Sebastian's family seemed to feel that to be holy is to suffer, and choosing to suffer or make a sacrifice, is to be closer to God.
Sebastian seems to choose to suffer with alcoholism and join a monastery.
Julia sacrifices her happiness by breaking off the engagement with Charles and remaining single at Brideshead.
Even their father makes the sign of the cross before dying.
Charles sees grace and redemption in the eternal flame in the little chapel at the end of the book.
(hide spoiler)]

[Charbel]

@Diane- There's no rush. This is my third time reading it and I'm taking my time with it.

@Terry- Waugh was very much influenced by Catholicism, so that doesn't surprise me.

I always found Anthony to be the most controversial character, given the time this was written in. He doesn't serve much of a purpose for the plot, I concede; but the novel wouldn't be the same without him.

[Leslie]

Charbel wrote: "What's your opinion of Anthony Blanche?"

Well, he is the most openly homosexual character. Sebastian always struck me as homosexual but tortured by it due to his Catholic upbringing (view spoiler)[- not just his friendship with Anthony (and Charles?) but with the German guy in Morocco too... and there is not a single mention of his having any dealings with women outside of his family. And the parallels with André Gide are noticeable! (hide spoiler)]

Charles I can't decide about. As Terry said in post 47 (view spoiler)["I think the only one Charles ever really loved is Sebastian and happens to fall in love with Julia now because he misses Sebastian and she is the closest thing to being him." If he was in love with Sebastian & sublimating it into a socially acceptable form with Julia, then his relationship with Celia makes more sense. And in this case, Anthony is important in showing Charles an alternative. He's the one who "tells it like it is", even when it isn't what Charles wants to hear both at Oxford and later after the gallery show.

However, none of this explains his coldness towards and complete lack of interest in his children. (hide spoiler)]

[Leslie]

Diane S ❄ wrote: "Don't think much of him either way. Do love Sebastian's little sister. Not as far as most of you, have only finished chapter five."

Cordelia is my favorite member of the Flyte family!

[LauraT]

Leslie wrote: "Diane S ❄ wrote: "Don't think much of him either way. Do love Sebastian's little sister. Not as far as most of you, have only finished chapter five."

Cordelia is my favorite member of the Flyte fa..."

She is! But probably the less important of all!
Catholicism is of the utmost importance in the book, especially in the second part. As Terri pointed out, it permeates all characters choices in the end. Interesting in a non catholic country

[Leslie]

Both Waugh and Graham Greene were Catholics - Waugh converted as an adult. The Catholics in England strike me (from a purely literary view as I don't know any!) as different from other European Catholics. Maybe as a result of their being a minority for so long?

[LauraT]

Leslie wrote: "Both Waugh and Graham Greene were Catholics - Waugh converted as an adult. The Catholics in England strike me (from a purely literary view as I don't know any!) as different from other European Cat..."

Yes probably. Also considering that Catholicism in Europe is not used to be a minority.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Leslie wrote: "Charbel wrote: "What's your opinion of Anthony Blanche?"

Well, he is the most openly homosexual character. Sebastian always struck me as homosexual but tortured by it due to his Catholic upbringin..."

Good points, Leslie!

[Leslie]

I picked up the DVDs of the Jeremy Irons/Anthony Andrews miniseries from my library the other day. Now that I have finished the book, I am going to spend this evening sipping some red wine and rewatching the series :)

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Have fun, Leslie! Would love to join you - I am on my last batch of cookies I'm making for a cookie exchange tomorrow and would love to sit down with a glass of wine...I have the series to watch too, but my husband has claimed the TV right now.

[Charbel]

Leslie- the miniseries is great! I hope you enjoy it.

I finished it last night.

Though I do think Sebastian is a homosexual, I don't particularly find that to be the reason behind (view spoiler)[his alcoholism (hide spoiler)]. I think he never grew up, or didn't want to grow up, just like Cara said. Even his attitude toward his Catholicism, which he regards seriously, is based on the fact that he finds it pleasant to believe those stories.

Charles is a difficult character to discuss. You can't love him, but you don't want to hate him. Yet even as the main character, the spotlight is not on him. This is a novel about the Marchmains. He's just telling the story.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I agree, Charbel

[Leslie]

I have watched the first 4 hours (out of 11) & have been reminded of some questions about book 2:

Do you think that Sebastian would have turned out differently if (view spoiler)[his mother had reacted differently after the "incident" with the police? Or would his inherited alcoholism still taken the same course? (hide spoiler)]

Charles comments that (view spoiler)[as they got older, he drank less and Sebastian drank more. He then says something like "Sebastian drank to forget". What do you think he is trying to ignore or suppress? Do you think that this is the same cause of his trying to remain in his childhood for so long? (hide spoiler)]

As a teenager watching the miniseries, I hated Lady Marchmain but this time I am more ambivalent about her. What do you all think about her?

[LauraT]

Leslie wrote: "I picked up the DVDs of the Jeremy Irons/Anthony Andrews miniseries from my library the other day. Now that I have finished the book, I am going to spend this evening sipping some red wine and rewa..."

Luky you. Here is unfindable, even to buy! My aunt has a VHS recording of it in Sardinia, next summer when I go there I plann to see it

[Diane S ☔]

Have never seen the mini series but intend to when I finish. Conflicted Catholics, I can relate. Not sure I really like any of these characters except for Cordelia. Don't dislike them but they are all complicated and that is my feelings toward them.

Almost finished, hope to finish tomorrow.

[LauraT]

Diane S ❄ wrote: "Have never seen the mini series but intend to when I finish. Conflicted Catholics, I can relate. Not sure I really like any of these characters except for Cordelia. Don't dislike them but they are ..."

YES they are complicated! This is my forst novel by Evelyn Waugh, but by what I've seen around and rad I think this is a characteristic of his style... Years ago I saw the film from a A Handful of Dust and was a bit chocked by the behabiour of most of the characters ...

[Charbel]

Leslie I don't like Lady Marchmain. I always saw her as controlling; and my view was confirmed by the way she treats Samgrass, and even (view spoiler)[how she tried to get Charles on her side (hide spoiler)]. And when Sebastian refers to someone as "one of mummie's" it just makes my skin crawl. The face of concern that she puts up always seemed insincere/ She doesn't like something being out of her control, and she very much enjoys being the epicentre of authority.
And I think some of that was passed down to Julia, except Julia is more direct about it.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Yes, you can see why her husband wanted to get as far as possible from her. She controls through guilt, using her religion to make her so pious. Like when everyone is sitting around talking after dinner and she enters the room and announces she is going to evening vespers (or something) and is anyone coming with her?