Gatsby's Criminality

[Harry]

Ascribing bad parenting to the wealthy seems no different than ascribing negative traits to people based on their race, religion, level of education--a long list.

[Geoffrey]

Karen wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "Christine wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "When Nick asks about the kid, she talks about herself not the toddler. How self centered can a mother be?..."

I think Daisy and Tom's relationsh..."

Only because proportionally the middle and lower classes consist the vast majority.

[Geoffrey]

Harry wrote: "There are bad rich parents and hideous impoverished ones; if there is a correlation at all, put a few bucks on the wealthier family.

And dinner engagements are the stuff of older novels."

The dinner engagements was not meant to be literal. Substitute the word with "social" engagements.

[Karen]

"Only because proportionally the middle and lower classes consist the vast majority"
That is what I said

[Grace]

Feliks wrote: "Monty J wrote: " Show us where this conclusion is supported in the novel. Not some other book or Fitzgerald's biography; the novel. ...it's all fluff unless you can support your conclusions from wi..."

Hi, sorry for reigniting an old debate but I found it very interesting. I don't have much time so I'll keep it very short.

You maintain that Gatsby is in love with Daisy, but I am more inclined to believe that Gatsby is more in love with the *Idea* of Daisy, rather than her actual character. Gatsby is so infatuated with the idea of being the archetypal successful, rich man, and as far as riches go, he has successfully accomplished this (albeit in some questionable ways). However, he lacks the 'trophy wife' that most of these 'successful men' have, and Daisy perfectly embodies all the qualities you would want in such a woman. She is beautiful, rich and of high-social standing. I believe it is even stated in the book that her value is heightened in Gatsby's eyes as she was popular with men. Moreover, if Gatsby really were to successfully make her leave Tom for him, that would, in a sense, seal his status as the 'successful man' and as a man worthy of the old money's acknowledgment as Tom is almost a symbol for the vieux rich.

Thus by winning over Daisy's affection, he would have essentially completed his goal of becoming the 'successful man'.

[Christine]

Grace wrote: "You maintain that Gatsby is in love with Daisy, but I am more inclined to believe that Gatsby is more in love with the *Idea* of Daisy, rather than her actual character.c..."

Hi Grace! Since this debate will obviously never end, and it is still fascinating, (at least to me), let's continue!

I can see your point about the "idea" of Daisy and Gatsby's quest to use her to fit his own image. But there is one flaw. If it were only the "idea", then Gatsby could have wooed any wealthy, beautiful, high status female. Plenty of eye candy to fit that bill, and he could have chosen one who was single, to make things easier on himself. But no. He chose his old flame Daisy, who was now married with a child and had long since forgotten about Gatsby. This I think is a testament to his love and his obsession for her.

[Monty J]

Christine wrote: "he could have chosen one who was single, to make things easier on himself. But no. He chose his old flame Daisy, who was now married with a child and had long since forgotten about Gatsby. This I think is a testament to his love and his obsession for her."

Obsession, yes. Love, not according to the novel.

Gatsby knew Daisy from his other life, when he was poor but not a criminal. He had seen her house, been to parties and met her social clique. He knew she was in love with him at one point in her young life, and this made her vulnerable, perhaps an easy target for his bond scheme. Through Daisy he could reach her friends, a well-heeled clientele to buy his worthless bonds.

There's virtually no evidence between the covers of this novel that Gatsby loved Daisy. He never tells her he loves her. The closest he comes to professing love for Daisy to a third party is in a casual reference with Nick: "I was surprised to find that I loved her." Gatsby doesn't buy Daisy any gifts. He buys a lot of flowers and has them delivered to Nick's place for his reunion with Daisy, but that's it--nothing of permanence befitting his/her wealth and social standing.

In the Plaza Hotel scene, Gatsby declares that Daisy loves him. In his next breath he should have said, "And l love her." The fact that he did not, is the most pregnant pause in American literature. No, Gatsby fails to declare his love for Daisy even after Tom declares his love for her. If ever there was a time for Gatsby to declare his love for Daisy, that was it, but he failed. Had he professed, he might not have lost her. But it simply wasn't in him.

Nick has a lot of romantic notions about Gatsby loving Daisy, but that's all coming from Nick's imagination, not from Gatsby.

The strongest evidence that Gatsby never loved Daisy lies in the raw fact that she doesn't attend nor even send flowers for Gatsby's funeral. If a woman feels a guy's deeply in love with her, don't you think she would at least send flowers, or a condolences card to Nick? No. Daisy turned her back on Gatsby the moment she found out he was nothing but a common criminal (revealed in the Plaza Hotel scene through Tom's investigation).

Love? There's no there there, between either of them, Daisy nor Gatsby.

Gatsby's "love" for Daisy was a purely romantic notion in Nick's head, with nothing to back it up, just like the idea that the parties were for Daisy. Nick made that up too, from a vague insinuation by Jordan.

This is NOT a love story; it is a social critique of the corruption rampant in America's wealthy elite--a Valley of Ashes. And it succeeds in spite of Hollywood (backed by Wall Street) and academia (also backed by Wall Street). Only one film of the five made about the novel, tells it straight--the HBO version. Anyone who doesn't have the time to read the book can take a spin through the HBO version for a clearer vision of what Fitzgerald wrote.

[Kate]

Awesome! Just read the book for the first time & this really helps make sense of it

[Tamara]

Hello there!

I agree with 99.9% except the gambling. Specifically, Monty, you say: "One even said he (meaning, Gatsby) was involved in illicit gambling, which isn't even in the book."

Actually, at the Plaza Hotel, Tom says: "Don't you call me 'old sport'!" cried Tom. Gatsby said nothing. "Walter could have you up on the betting laws too, but Wolfshiem scared him into shutting his mouth."

So there's a mention of 'betting', if not 'gambling'.

[Tamara]

Longtime lover of literature, but newbie here on Goodreads.

My question is this: many elements of The Great Gatsby are drawn from real life: Arnold Rothstein, the Black Sox fix, Max Gerlach's parties, etc. But is there any real-life inspiration for Gatsby's "big con"... not his bootlegging, but his sale of counterfeit (or stolen?) bonds?

There were the Liberty Bond thefts of 1918-1920, in which $5 million worth of bonds were stolen. Rothstein (portrayed as Meyer Wolfsheim) may have been the mastermind (or fence) of that Liberty Bond theft.

But is there anything-- in Fitzgerald's letters perhaps? a NYTimes or trial reference?-- that connects real-life, 1920s bond criminality to the bond criminality Jay Gatsby is obviously involved in?

Cheers and thank you.

[Tamara]

Feliks wrote: "...but unless you dig up FSF, revive him like Frankenstein, and get him to confirm *your* premise, its no more vindicated or supported than anyone else's theory which has ever come down the pike."

Hi Feliks,

So no where in his letters-- to friends, Zelda, Scottie, publisher-- no where does Fitzgerald address the criminality through which Gatsby nearly achieves his dream? There's no author's intent we can infer from interviews, letters, etc.?

[Tamara]

Feliks wrote: Sure, he's a businessman, and to some extent probably a shady one. But business is only to support his personal mission: meeting her again."

Agreed. While there's little doubt that Gatsby achieved his wealth by bootlegging and selling bad bonds, Nick still prefers Gatsby to other East Eggers, the "old money," the careless Toms/Daisys of the world who "𝘴𝘮𝘢𝘴𝘩𝘦𝘥 𝘶𝘱 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘤𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘳𝘦𝘵𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘣𝘢𝘤𝘬 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 𝘮𝘰𝘯𝘦𝘺."
Nick condemns them soundly but puts Gatsby in another category: "𝘼𝙡𝙡 𝙗𝙪𝙩 𝙂𝙖𝙩𝙨𝙗𝙮. 𝙂𝙖𝙩𝙨𝙗𝙮 𝙬𝙖𝙨 𝙖𝙡𝙧𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩."
Why is that? I think it's because Nick values intentionality and judges others on both their behavior AND intention. When evaluated that way, Gatsby's misdeeds are not quite as awful as the misdeeds of the Toms/Daisys of the World. While they were self-centered and crush people carelessly, Gatsby was motivated by love and longing.