Chapters 11-19, Week 2, November 8-14, 2015

[☯Emily , The First]

Please place your comments about these chapters in this thread.

[Sara]

You can feel the despair as these people travel south into a land that is so unlike the one they live in. I like that Wang is unwilling to beg and would rather work very hard as a rickshaw puller.

One thing did disturb me. He punished the young boy for stealing, when what he stole was food to feed the family. Then he feels free to steal the money himself from the rich man cowering inside the already stripped house. He demands that the man give him ALL that he has. We are not thieves he tells the boy, but aren't they? His entire fortunes are based upon this theft.

When he returns to his own home, he is smart in acquiring land, and one can see that he does not wish his children to become like the people he felt entitled to rob. He makes them work in the fields to learn the importance of the work. He values O-Lan enough to give her the two pearls to keep simply because she wants them. He pities Ching and gives him a job of importance in his household. However, by chapter nineteen, he has become like those people anyway. He is risking his fortune and regretting his good wife. It is a distressing (although very realistic) turn of events.

[♪ Kim N]

I guess he justified his own theft because it enabled the family to return home and get away from the corrupting influences of the south. He was right about returning to the land, but it's odd that his conscience never troubled him.

Do you think O-Lan ever intended to show him the jewels?

[☯Emily , The First]

♪ Kim wrote: "I guess he justified his own theft because it enabled the family to return home and get away from the corrupting influences of the south. He was right about returning to the land, but it's odd that..."

I'm sure O-Lan could have found a better place to hide them if she wanted to!

[Sara]

♪ Kim wrote: "I guess he justified his own theft because it enabled the family to return home and get away from the corrupting influences of the south. He was right about returning to the land, but it's odd that..."

Part of human nature...we can always excuse in ourselves what we condemn in others. I do think O-Lan would have shown him the jewels when they were needed. They would have done her no good at all otherwise. I would think that having been in a such a horrible situation with the starving and having to beg that she would have held them as insurance against such a time ever coming again.

I felt so sad when the little girl turned out to be mentally damaged, and this probably because of having been starved at such an early age.

[♪ Kim N]

Emily, I guess you're right. If she wanted to keep them a secret she'd have found a better hiding place.

But there also seems to be a dichotomy in O-Lan's nature. On the one hand she's very canny and practical; on the other she's simple and innocent. I think part of her reason for taking the jewels was a pure feminine love of pretty things - things she associates with beautiful women - things she would never have access to as a slave.

[♪ Kim N]

Sara wrote: "I felt so sad when the little girl turned out to be mentally damaged, and this probably because of having been starved at such an early age."

It's interesting that Wang Lung is so tenderhearted towards her. In all other things he follows the attitudes of men in his time, but he couldn't bring himself to sell or abandon her.

[Alexa]

I think that Buck is definitely making a political point here, and it appears to be as Sara earlier said, a true "moral" life involves working the land. The beggars who weren't lucky enough to be born into land don't have the sense of ethics that Wang Lung tries to cling to, and when a farmer gathers too much wealth, becomes separated from the daily labor, then he also risks falling into immorality. So she sees true morality as springing from agrarian labor - and seems to be implying that societies should be organized to promote this - which is an interesting commentary on the early beginnings of Chinese communism.

[A.D.]

Sorry for such a long post but I really like this book.

I didn't really see the situation with the rich guy as a theft (which may tell you something about my dubious ethics lol.) First of all whilst the rest of the poor people were stealing everything they could get their hands on, Wang wouldn't touch anything in the house because he did not want to steal. And when he found the rich man, the man kind of didn't even let Wang speak but started saying please don't kill me I'll give you money if you don't kill me, and to Wang it was the end of a dilema becuase he said something along the lines of, "it is done, the slave does not need to be sold and we can go back to the land." so he kind of took advantage of the situation, but I didn't see it as stealing.

I don't think O Lan meant to show him the jewels, but she probably wasn't exactly hiding it from him either. She is quite simple in her way of thinking and she also trusted him as she didn't put up too much of a fuss when he took the jewels.

I really understand O Lan's character and why she is the way she is. Also I think in the first thread someone mentioned that the prose was quite simplistic but I think the prose suits the characters as they are quite simple, straight forward people. You can see that O Lan's character is as a result of the way women are viewed and treated in China at that time period and also because of all she has suffered. Although she is married to Wang and cares for him and does everything for him, she does not talk to him much at all, something Wang comments on in that he tries to make conversation with her but does not get much from her. Then every once in a while she will surprise him like she did by telling him about her fantasies of going back to the her old home with her baby. You can see that the fact that she is so closed off is because of the way women were viewed and treated. Girl children referred to as slaves and their births seen as insignicant (as she was toward the birth of her own girl child when she said something along the lines of "it is just a slave, not worth mentioning." And the fact that although both of those two characters are good people they were still referring to the little girl as "little fool." I can understand how being viewed and treated as such (especially in a poor household as O Lan's would have been) would have made her as shut down as she is emotionally and then there was the abuse she suffered in which she said she was beaten daily at her old home. Her character is so real to me because I can see how how the society and her hardships shaped her and made her as tough as she is. It was heartreaking reading the parts when Wang began to treat her badly. I think the worst part was the fact that he didn't even consider the impact of having Cuckoo brought to their home. I think that was probably the worst thing he did because although O Lan does not talk much, he knew how badly she had been treated at that house and how she felt about it's occupants.

But the whole of that part with Lotus shows the land is who Wang Lang is. That's what drives him, gives him purpose and informs what he does. The whole Lotus thing would not have happened if he had been able to work the land during that period.

[Sara]

A.D. wrote: "Sorry for such a long post but I really like this book.

I didn't really see the situation with the rich guy as a theft (which may tell you something about my dubious ethics lol.) First of all whil..."

I think your analysis of O-Lan is spot on and I agree that one of the cruelest things Wang does is bringing Cuckoo into the house and giving the pearls to Lotus. O-Lan has made a new life and is so proud of her son when she takes him to the Hwang house. Bringing Cuckoo into the house to live in a superior position robs her of everything.

The definition of theft is taking something that does not belong to you, so Wang steals. Whether he is justified might be another argument, but I would say that taking advantage of a situation does not absolve us from our part in it. It is too easy to excuse ourselves. What struck me was that he didn't just take enough to get his family home or keep his children from starving, he took everything the man had and enough to establish himself as a rich man in his stead. This, for me, is Wang's first immoral act and it leads to all the others.

[A.D.]

I'm going to have to read that section again, Sara as I still think that although his actions are not necessarily moral, he isn't stealing. The definition of theft is taking something that does not belong to you. But he didn't take the money, he was given the money by the man. I also don't think it was theft since the author made the point of saying that Wang was against stealing from the rich people's house and was only actually in the house because he didn't want the rest of the thieves to think he was against them. His actions are immoral, but I think that the most immoral thing that he does is the way he treats O Lan, especially since she is the reason for his wealth and the worst thing about his treatment of her is that he knows he is doing wrong and is ashamed of it, which makes him behave worse toward her.

[Sara]

A.D. wrote: "I'm going to have to read that section again, Sara as I still think that although his actions are not necessarily moral, he isn't stealing. The definition of theft is taking something that does not..."

"But the fat fellow fell upon his knees and knocked his head on the tiles of the floor, and he cried forth, 'save a life, save a life, do not kill me. I have money for you, much money.'
It was this word 'money' which suddenly brought to Wang Lung's mind a piercing clarity. Money! Aye, and he needed that!...He cried out suddenly in a harsh voice such as he did not himself know was in his breast, 'Give me the money then!'
And the fat man rose to his knees, sobbing and gibbering, and feeling for the pocket of the robe, and he brought forth his yellow hands dripping with gold and Wang Lung held out the end of his coat and received it. and again he cried out in that strange voice that was like another man's, 'Give me more!'
And again the man's hands came forth dripping with gold and he whimpered, 'Now there is nothing left and I have nothing but my wretched life' and he fell to weeping, his tears running like oil down his hanging cheeks."

Even with the man crying that he has nothing left, Wang takes it all. In my view, he has stolen his beginning of wealth. The man was afraid for his life. If you hold a gun on someone, the fact that they take out their wallet and give you their money does not change the fact that you have stolen it.

Also, does having wealth make a person evil? We know nothing about this man except that he is of the rich home that is being robbed. We assume that he is like the Hwang lord and corrupt, but we do not know this. If wealth makes all of these wealthy men evil, does it not follow that Wang, when he assumes the wealth, assumes the evil?

I totally agree with you that his treatment of O-Lan is even more immoral. I like your observation about his guilt and shame...even he cannot justify to himself his treatment of her.

[☯Emily , The First]

Sara, I agree with you. I don't think it was necessarily theft in the beginning when the fat man offered Wang money. However, it was theft when he told the man, "Give me more." Wang then takes everything the man had. He wasn't content with what he was given, but wanted all. I think that action was the beginning of the downward spiral of Wang's moral life.

[A.D.]

Thanks for that, Sara. Now I've read it again I realise that Wang actually did much worse than steal, he robbed the guy. And yeah, you're right, although he was in need and the alternative was to sell his daughter who would not have survived once her new owners realised she was mentally damaged, the "Give me more" is about greed and not need. So you're right, it is the first immoral thing we see him do. The book actually seems to present the rich in a poor light (I was so shocked when we were introduced to the Lady of O Lan's former home and she was smoking opium first thing in the morning in full view of everyone, even a stranger like Wang) even though it is obvious that Wang is on his way to being one of them. I wonder why that is.