WE discussion thread 2: From Record 11 up to Record 20

[Traveller]

This thread is for discussion of We: From Record 11 up to Record 20.

[Traveller]

My thoughts so far: well,the system described in the book obviously parodies the Soviet state--but you know what it reminds me of actually even more than the Soviet system? The Chinese Reds. :( The people, the workers or proletariat there really have slogans and pictures of high-up party members plastered all over the place which they're supposed to revere and are taught at school to revere.
(I know that kind of thing happened in the Soviet Union too, but it feels to me as if the Soviet shall we say "non-party-members" were perhaps a bit more cynical and questioning?) Though of course in China you get summarily shot, just like the poor guy in We got vaporized. Or, nowadays, you get kept alive so that your kidneys and retinas can be harvested.

[Traveller]

I love how the author describes people in terms of their facial expressions...

[Traveller]

Also, one has to ask yourself; would a real utopia have the death sentence and torture as part of the State's repertoire of actions against citizens? I mean, if everybody was happy, then these wouldn't be necessary, would they, and even if punishment were justified in a utopia, you might think that more humane methods might be resorted to?

[Nataliya]

Traveller wrote: "My thoughts so far: well,the system described in the book obviously parodies the Soviet state--but you know what it reminds me of actually even more than the Soviet system? The Chinese Reds. :( ..."

This book actually predates the Soviet Union, and written only a few years into the new Russian Soviet state back in 1920-1921, so his perception was quite astute considering how young the nascent bureaucratic dictatorship was (I mean, they JUST got through the revolution and complete upheaval of society, we just over the civil war, and were barely getting their stuff together at that point!). The new world order was so brand-new that, unlike the later creators of similar-themed books, Zamyatin did not have that much real-world experience to base his ideas on; it was just brilliance and very perceptive extrapolation.

As for cruel capital punishment in the utopia - I don't think even for a millisecond anyone besides the clueless protagonist believes in the universal uniform regulated happiness. But his exalted brainwashed impression of his country is like what you'd think of a healthy body - it works beautifully and harmoniously and hard to battle and defend itself from infections and cancerous changes; this view would justify the harsh repercussions for those who dare not fulfill their assigned happy role.

[Traveller]

Yes, and there's also mention of that "having a soul" can turn into an "epidemic" and having an imagination is having something unpleasant that needs to be excised..

The problem is of course that one actually does need an imagination in order to create something new, so these people have to live with a soul-deadening sameness and they don't know what they're missing because the don't -know- anything else...

[Saski]

In answer to your comment in thread one, I don't know about others but I am here in spirit and soon to post, but I am a little behind in other stuff at the moment (and Camp Nano has started...).

[Traveller]

Ruth wrote: "In answer to your comment in thread one, I don't know about others but I am here in spirit and soon to post, but I am a little behind in other stuff at the moment (and Camp Nano has started...)."

Thanks for clocking in, Ruth! Yeah, I also have lots of other things going, so it would be nice to slow down here a bit. But we mustn't forget about King Rat on the 16th! Do you guys want to postpone it even a few day more if Derek would be willing? Say to the 19th?

[Saski]

I open to whatever and will do my best to be there...

[Traveller]

Hmm, I'm actually curious as to which translations the two of you who are finding the book to be a 'slog' have been reading.

There's a lot of poetic language, and as I've sort of flitted between two different translations, they do give a slightly different 'feel.' Let me give an example:
Brown :
And her laughter splashed all over me, the whole delirium passed, and little sequins of laughter were flashing and how ... how wonderful it all was.

Randall:
Her laughter splashed me, the delirium passed, and everything sparkled, our chuckles were tinkling, and how … how good everything was.

Here I prefer Brown's first sentence, and undecided about the rest.

Another passage:
Brown:
thrusting her sharp sweet needle deeper and deeper into my heart, pressed against me with her shoulder, her arm, her whole body, and we went, she and I, she and I, two as one ...
Randall:
plunged a sharp, sweet needle into my heart, pressing up to me with her shoulder, her arm, every part of her, and we walked off together, together as a twosome—a onesome …

Another passage:
Brown:
Yesterday I lay down and instantly sank to the bottom of sleep, like a ship overloaded and overturned. Issueless depth of heaving green water. At length I swam slowly up from the bottom, and somewhere about halfway to the top I opened my eyes. I see my room, the morning still green and rigid with cold. On the mirrored door of the wardrobe a shard of sun hits me in the eyes. This stops me from putting in exactly all the hours of sleep prescribed by the Table. The best thing would be just to open the door of the wardrobe. But I feel all wrapped up in a spiderweb, with spiderwebs in my eyes, and I haven’t got the strength to get up.

Randall:
Yesterday I lay down—and I sank at once into the depths of a dream, like a capsized and overladen ship. A muffled, heaving mass of green water. And slowly I am rising to the surface from the depths and somewhere in the middle deepness, I open my eyes: my room, a still-green, stiffened morning. A stripe of sunshine went into the mirrored door of my closet—and then into my eyes. This interferes with any precision in fulfilling the hours of sleep prescribed by the Table of Hours. The best thing would have been to open the closet door. But it was as if I was in a cobweb and there was a cobweb in my eyes, I didn’t have the strength to get up …

To me: On the mirrored door of the wardrobe a shard of sun hits me in the eyes. sounds a lot more elegant than: A stripe of sunshine went into the mirrored door of my closet—and then into my eyes.

[Saski]

I like your Brown better. Not sure what I have... There's no info at the beginning of the ebook.

(Days later) Ha! Found it. I have the Ginsberg.

[Traveller]

The Penguin edition is probably the most common one, and that would be the Constance Brown. I'll have a look at which publishers match up with the other translators.

Yes, the Brown seems to have more atmospheric 'magic' to it, to me.

[Nataliya]

Traveller wrote: "Hmm, I'm actually curious as to which translations the two of you who are finding the book to be a 'slog' have been reading.

There's a lot of poetic language, and as I've sort of flitted between t..."

Ah, the comparison of translations - I can actually be a bit helpful here :)

The phrase that you quoted is here in Russian: "На зеркальной двери шкафа – осколок солнца – в глаза мне."

The literal translation here is: "On the mirrored door of the wardrobe - a shard of the sun - into my eyes." The dashes make it so fragmentary and quite rushed and abrupt-sounding for Russian. Which is the effect, so beautifully and precisely conveying the completely shattered, upside-down state of D-503 ever since 'developing a soul'.
In spirit and effect, it's so much closer to the translation by Brown.

Overall it's such a beautiful paragraph!

“Вчера лег – и тотчас же канул на сонное дно, как перевернувшийся, слишком загруженный корабль. Толща глухой колыхающейся зеленой воды. И вот медленно всплываю со дна вверх и где-то на средине глубины открываю глаза: моя комната, еще зеленое, застывшее утро. На зеркальной двери шкафа – осколок солнца – в глаза мне.”

[Saski]

Traveller wrote: "Yes, and there's also mention of that "having a soul" can turn into an "epidemic" and having an imagination is having something unpleasant that needs to be excised..

The problem is of course that ..."

The odd thing is, they ARE creating something new (the Integral). I wonder if that's why they are giving D more latitude than 'ordinary' citizens (at least it looks that way to me). I also wonder what will happen when his 'imagination' or 'creativity' is no longer required for this project...

[Saski]

Traveller wrote: "Hmm, I'm actually curious as to which translations the two of you who are finding the book to be a 'slog' have been reading.

There's a lot of poetic language, and as I've sort of flitted between t..."

Let me compare my translation with your first set:

I-330 laughed--sprayed me with laughter, and the delirium was over, and drops of laughter rang, sparkled all around, and everything, everything was beautiful.

I have to say I don't like the feeling of being 'sprayed' with laughter, reminds me of D's friend R and how D doesn't like being sprayed by him when he talks. It seems such a contrast with rest of the paragraph.

[Saski]

And my translation for your second set, Traveller:

Then I-330 slowly, slowly pressed against me with her shoulder, arm, all of her, plunging a sharp sweet needle deeper and deeper into my heart, and we walked together the two of us--one....

Not that much different in feeling, I guess, not like the one above.

[Saski]

As I suspected, shadings of colors other than the primary are associated with bad or ancient (which is also bad). For example, back when D sees I-330 as bad or at least scary: She was in a light, saffron-yellow dress of the ancient model....a bottle with something poisonously green....

But with all this 'bad stuff' going on, D himself is still 'primary': The hammer pounded inside me against the red-hot iron rods.

"...something violent blood-red..." is something he is afraid of, something which is where it shouldn't be.

Yet a few chapters later he sees I-330 as desirous and we get the following colors: ...blue, the saffron-yellow, the dark green leather, Buddha's golden smile, ... everything filled with golden-pink sap..."
Here is the blue an attempt of D's to hold with the 'right', a way to anchor the shades of color, or...?

Ok, enough with this silliness with color, though I am sure there is more.

[Traveller]

Nataliya wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Hmm, I'm actually curious as to which translations the two of you who are finding the book to be a 'slog' have been reading.

There's a lot of poetic language, and as I've sort of..."

Nataliya wrote: "
The literal translation here is: "On the mirrored door of the wardrobe - a shard of the sun - into my eyes." The dashes make it so fragmentary and quite rushed and abrupt-sounding for Russian. Which is the effect, so beautifully and precisely conveying the completely shattered, upside-down state of D-503 ever since 'developing a soul'.
In spirit and effect, it's so much closer to the translation by Brown.
.."
That literal translation does sound best! And yes, that image did strike me- I wonder, when he find I-330 in the closet and embraces her and the beam or whatever hits her neck- I wonder if you would mind doing a literal translation of that as well, Nataliya?

[Traveller]

Ruth wrote: "As I suspected, shadings of colors other than the primary are associated with bad or ancient (which is also bad). For example, back when D sees I-330 as bad or at least scary: She was in a light,..."
To me it sounds like he sees yellow as a positive color. He really liked I-330's yellow dress, didn't he? Heheh.

Ruth, I don't like your translation, I must say... and yes, the sprayed laughter definitely sounds off to me.