North & South discussion
Group Watch, March 2014
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First Thoughts
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:O You people totally have to see Frozen!
Every time I'm struck by how great the soundscape is. The harp (that is a harp, right?) in the theme and the quiet nature background sounds in Helstone vs the machinery and people noises of Milton - all so evocative. I confess I have been listening more than watching. And let me swoon over Richard Armitage 's voice a bit. I can't figure out how to transcribe "I want to marry you because I luve you" but I adore it even if my husband makes fun every time!I still have more sympathy for Mrs. Hale than for Mrs. Thornton. Plus - how old can Mrs. Thornton really be? John mentions being able to keep her as her age requires (or something like that) but surely she can't be more than 60. And how old is Fanny, too?
I like how the film portrays the union activity - it's much more actiony than the novel and I think really drags in some Mary Barton. But I disagree with other posters here about changes in strikes and their usefulness - I think Mr. Thornton's "bleed them of their bitterness" really has happened, in most places. And the power of collective action is greater than it once was, with less attendant tragedy although here in the US we still struggle with the rights of workers and rights of the collective vs rights of the individual. So the portrayal of the Union is one of my favorite parts if the movie, because it really gets at some labor history while remaining true to what seems to me Gaskell's ambivalence about unionization. Plus in our current obsession with the power and responsibility of the individual it 's nice to think about group responsibility and power.
This viewing, Margaret seems more of an officious busybody than usual - bringing a basket, questioning the young women about the strike, pushing John to "protect [his] innocent Irishmen", etc. must be me because usually I don't find her actions so pushy.
I love Armitage's Thornton but sometimes I look at those other mill owners and think that they all look more like the man she described than out aristocratically nosed pale hottie. I wish I were less shallow and could imagine one of them as a romantic lead (but could he luve the same way?)
Have not managed episode 4 yet but looking forward to the discussion already ...
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The soundscape is so utterly beautiful - and evocative is a perfect word to use for it. And of course I love Richard Armitage's voice (listening to one if his audiobooks right now - yet again.) I don't think anyone could blame you for not being able to transcribe that line... It's so full of tortured, brilliant, desperate passion, and the look in his eyes as he says it just rips my heart out of my chest.
Agree with your point about the strikes!
Haha, she can be a little pushy, but mostly she's well meaning. And for some reason I never found her pushing John towards speaking with the rioters as pushy. Don't know why... *shrug*
Ah, I've just started talking about appearances with Qnpoohbear on the Margaret Hale thread. Frankly I've never cared a great deal about appearances in film being consistent with the novel, as long as the actor portrays the character accurately. And we all know no one could portray Thornton as well as Richard Armitage - besides which he's unbelievably good looking - so there are no complaints from me on that head!
Becca wrote: "Ha, the amount of pity that Henry deserves is minuscule. Oh, was a lot of it really false hair? How disappointing. Still doesn't make me any less determined to figure out how do those hairstyles...."
Becca, I'm 27 and I love them. Don't worry ;)
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I just finished ep 4 and I love it best of all - all the tragedies swept away - and the smoldering...holy cow! I'm embarrassed by all the emotion. Plus I think I might have to leave my husband if Richard A comes knocking (not John T, I like him and all but Armitage, whoo!)How does Higgins know to tell Thornton about Frederick? I don't remember how it works in the book. In the series I always feel a bit is left out, for Higgins (another fellow to make me swoon, Brendan C) to be so knowledgable about T's heart.
I love Margaret's face when she sees John at the train station and his! And wearing a pretty good Mr. Darcy shirt, too, Soph! The way she doesn't know where to look or what to say is perfect for the character who has been so unwilling to accept passion before.
I wish the ending theme had a bit more of the beginning theme in it.
I like the circle of ending as we began, with Margaret looking out a train window. It seems to me perfect that the series re-emphasizes the train as a symbol of industry and that Margaret is looking away from John, out the window, as the story ends. She will not be absorbed only in herself and her fellow and her family but engaged with the world. It is, to me, a fundamental difference between N&S and P&P that the series gets at here. Lots to read into a look out a window!
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The music was in my head all night. *sigh* @Kate your comments about Richard Armitage make me laugh.
Interesting note on the symbol of the train. If I can get Netflix to work I need to watch this AGAIN.
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P.S. Very impressed with everyone's notes so far, I'm sure these discussions will be just fantastic. :)
Looking forward to it. Just finished episode four about two hours ago. Oh, I loved it so much, you guys. Can't wait to properly discuss.
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Oh, yay, you finished it! :) Completely ecstatic that you loved it. (Seeing as this evening is my free evening, I'm going to try and watch it again so I'm extra-prepared for the discussions. Which of course I'm almost bouncing up and down in excitement about! :D)
Qnpoohbear wrote: "@Aerykah your 7 YO and my 5 YO would get along perfectly LOL! E runs around singing "Let it Go" followed by her little cousin who is both tuneless and doesn't know the words. I gave the younger girl Pride and Prejudice baby lit and she loves it so I am hoping to influence her taste in literature and television drama."lol! "My 7 yo" (also E, btw) also puts on her dress-up cape & one glove every time she sings that song. ;P My youngest niece is only 1-1/2 & just starting to really get her words out, but I swear she was singing "Let It Go"! ;)
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Becca wrote: "Ha, the amount of pity that Henry deserves is minuscule. Oh, was a lot of it really false hair? How disappointing. Still doesn't make me any less determined to figure out how do those hairstyles...."
RE what Qnpoohbear said about the hairstyles -- I've heard the same thing many times. At one house/museum we went to (in Louisiana, I think) they showed us a little jar that the lady would keep her hair in so that she could have things made out of the hair later. Pretty interesting.
As for the Disney Princesses... I never really cared for those movies when I was little, but I've really enjoyed these newer ones. (And I'm 23, btw) Frozen was pretty great, wasn't it? ;)
Victorian and Edwardian women wore false hair all the time. The ads are quite funny. There was a creepy family who grew hair for commercial purposes. The hair advertisements in magazines and newspapers are quite funny. They combined the hair pieces with their own hair to create elaborate braided designs, side curls, side poofs, chignons, etc. They were called ratts. They also used hair for jewelry and other art projects. Margaret may have clipped a piece of her mother's hair and put it in a broach to wear while in mourning. I have a mourning broach that belonged to a family member but I don't know who!
Qnpoohbear wrote: "Victorian and Edwardian women wore false hair all the time. The ads are quite funny. There was a creepy family who grew hair for commercial purposes. The hair advertisements in magazines and newspa..."Check this out -- http://discussions.mnhs.org/collectio...
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This mini series is a cinematic gem. I love the stark bleakness of Milton with the cotton raining down like snow. The visual ads so mu..."
I'm just double checking to make sure you own the DVD. If you've only seen the Netflix version then you're missing a few little scenes here and there!! A travesty with a film masterpiece like N&S. :)
Ahh, you guys are helping me procrastinate my English paper. ;)
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:D Lol, I'm procrastinating studying for an Ancient Egyptian history test this afternoon. And I've no doubt the little notification beeps are going to make me increasingly twitchy during my Italian class in a few minutes... Yes, yes, I know, I'm very naughty. :P
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It's such a shame that you don't have the time to watch it. :(
I completely agree with what you're saying about that scene. It always bring tears to my eyes, because you can feel so, so deeply the loneliness of not only Margaret, but Thornton too, both trapped in their own separate worlds. I think that's one of the reasons this series is so utterly beautiful - after so much hardship and loneliness, Margaret and Thornton finally come together in perfect understanding, each filling that emotional void within the other.
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Indeed. Poor them. :( I think that's one reason I love Thornton's relationship with Hannah so much - because he can open up to her in a way, sometimes.
Do you think that having such strong characters in Thornton and Margaret is why some people (*cough* me *cough*) sometimes feel a little less sympathy for Boucher than he might deserve? I mean, I always feel sorry for him, but he also irritates me, and I've got a feeling this might be one of the reasons why.
Becca wrote: "Trudy wrote: "Yes, Margaret and John are both so strong, suffering alone and silently, even though they are surrounded by family. The film does a good job of showing this, I think. Neither has any ..."You are not the only one.
I've seen the DVD version but I wasn't sure I could get it back to the library by the due date so I opted for Netflix this time and half the copies are checked out, missing or in repair. I wonder if the checked out copies are any of you?
Fanny is such a brat!!! Urgh! I really dislike her!
Samanta wrote: "Fanny is such a brat!!! Urgh! I really dislike her!"You're not the only one... ;P
Oh, Becca and I spoke a bit about Fanny. I thought she was funny, not at all annoying. I was able to overlook even her most snobbish remarks.
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Well, I can overlook most of them, but by the time we get to the end a couple of the things she's done are really quite mean. Like saying; "I told you. I was right, and John was wrong. For once you must admit I was right!" So much for being supportive.
Fanny is who she is because John kept her in ignorance of the truth. She represents the true womanhood ideal gone wrong because she doesn't appreciate her brother or help make the home comfortable. I fear for her husband.
True... but you can't lay it all at John's feet. It's also partly her mother's fault, you know.There are several times that I wished Mrs. Thornton would just tell Fanny to get over herself & stop acting the way she does.
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Becca wrote: "I agree that Fanny's character can to some extent be blamed on her ignorance - and that both John and Hannah can be blamed in part for it. But I also wonder how much Fanny was inclined towards busi..."Judging by the look of horror on her face when John mentioned talking about the strike... I doubt she had any interest at all in knowing anything about the business or money matters.
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I figured the only reason she was interested in Watson's money scheme was because it would mean more money for her. She never seemed to consider the fact that he might lose money... Knowing what happened to their father when he "speculated", I can understand John not wanting to get involved in such a thing. I always wondered if Fanny even knew the whole story of what happened to their father... I mean, she must have been very young when it all happened.
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I always feel so sorry for Thornton, to have been taunted by Fanny with the success of the speculation, even as I respect his decision not to speculate - understandable, and based on good, strong principles. It's a good question, though, whether or not she knew the whole story... how much younger is she, do you know?
Well, didn't she say that Margaret was quite a bit older than her? Though I'm sure that could mean just a few years... ;P I figured Margaret to be in her early-mid 20's (though I could be wrong -- does it ever say?) & so Fanny might be 18-20ish?? I don't know... she just seems pretty young to me. What do you think?
I still stand by my first observation (from my notes on episode 1) that her mother was so concentrated on Thornton and the business that she forgot she also had a daughter to raise. Like Edith, Fanny for me represents the typical lady of that time (ignorant on anything except household issues, fashion and society) but Edith is much more polished and actually a very good and kind person.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Samanta. Very interesting of you to say!! It was exactly what I'd been thinking but hadn't been able to sort into words.
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@Samanta and Abigail: I agree completely that Mrs Thornton may have partially - if not entirely, mind you - forgotten to put effort into raising her daughter. And of course, her ignorance is a consequence of that. All I was questioning was whether or not she would have preferred to be educated. :)
@Becca....if she was educated (and I mean really educated..books, lessons etc.) from young age she wouldn't question the necessity of education. She would consider it normal just like Margaret does. But she was neglected in that way, taught only basic things "a woman should know" and thus turned into what she is. I always thought upbringing is the biggest culprit for a persons behaviour. I always thought that if my mother did not, from very young age, instill in me the idea that college is fundamental, I would not consider it so and try so hard to enter and finish it. :)
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Haha, I think we're getting dangerously close to the nature/nurture argument here. Let me only say, then, that I only wonder - not having an opinion either way - whether Fanny's nature would allow for an aptitude in business. Even Margaret's knowledge of business, as such, is not immense. Perhaps I should apologise for using the word "educated", it seems to have put a slightly wrong spin on what I was trying to say. :)
Good question! Not everyone is a talent for business. But I stand by my opinion on her education. She grates my nerves and I don't have simpathy for her, neglected or not. :/
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I actually wonder if she has an inner voice. :D Maybe she has little angel and devil on her sholders consulting her. But since her mouth is faster than her brain I don't think she has the time to listen to them :D
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Yes there is. Since we already know the story, we can pay attention to the little things we didn't notice before. I also picked up on more things having taken classes on Labor History and Empire. I could relate what was happening in the movie to American history at that time.
And I'm sooo much older than Becca and I still like Disney, I haven't seen Frozen yet though :p"
Ha ha! Same here! My PARENTS are going to Orlando alone. I'm super jealous! I'm told the Easter Bunny may bring Frozen to the 3 year old so I can borrow it from her.