A Song of Ice and Fire - A Chapter a day discussion
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10/21/15 - Chapter 22: Catelyn II
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So sorry for being late! I've gotten sick and chores started piling up. 1. Catelyn and twenty other Stark men are making their way down to parlay with King Renly. She didn’t want to go; she barely knows Renly. She wanted to stick by her dying father. But Robb commanded her to go. He needs the Blackfish with him because he’s his eyes and ears, and Edmure must hold Riverrun when they march. It has to be her, apparently. Robb doesn’t want to sit and wait for peace; he knows it’ll make him look weak, and his father even once told him men start to think of hearth and harvest the longer they’ve been away from battle.
2. That is true, “...why should the Lannisters give me anything if all I do is sit here while my army melts away around me swift as summer snow?” It is folly to attack Harrenhal right now, but he isn’t talking about doing that. I wonder how risky it would be to start attacking Casterly Rock? Or at least, make their way toward it.
3. Interesting that if Hoster Tully had been well he would’ve gone in Catelyn’s place to treat with Renly. Unfortunately, when Cat went to say goodbye to him he didn’t even recognize her. :(
4. I like this: “Fate drives me south and south again.” She misses Winterfell and her boys so much; but she seems to keep getting farther away from them. It is good she writes to Bran and Rickon, though.
5. Robb doesn’t even consider Renly a king, so Cat is concerned how she’s going to gain his allegiance. Cat does not have much hope for this meeting. The sooner she talks to him, the sooner she can leave, is how she sees it.
6. Before they even reach Renly’s camp they are surrounded by Renly supporters. Probably the only reason they are not outright slaughtered is because of their Stark banners. Ser Colen of Greenpools tells Catelyn these lands are dangerous to cross. I like how Catelyn refers to Renly as the King in the South. :) Though Ser Colen is courteous, he tells her Renly is king of all seven kingdoms and escorts her to Bitterbridge, where Renly’s camp is currently at. That is apparently only halfway to King’s Landing from Highgarden. Their movement is indeed slow-going. Interesting Cat wonders if it’s an escort or a capture. Those lines are often blurred in this world.
7. Interesting that the name of the great river flowing through the Reach is called Mander. The Manderly’s in White Harbor did in fact used to live in the Reach but some time ago, I don’t remember how long exactly, they were banished and took refuge in the North. Later they became lords of White Harbor and continue to worship the new gods over the old ones. Interesting piece of trivia.
8. Catelyn is overwhelmed by the size of Renly’s army. It is massive! They don’t need to be making enemies with him! When they get closer, Cat notices they’re enjoying a tourney. The combatants are Red Ronnet (whom I suspect is a Connington, from the griffin sigil) and a blue knight with the sun and moon sigil of House Tarth. Catelyn, however, is disgusted by this -- the rest of the country is engaged in a bloody war and engulfed in flames and famine while Renly is down here, playing games. Cat recognizes a lot of these southron Houses since her father treated with a good number of them as she was growing up in Riverrun. That should be helpful.
9. Catelyn refers to Renly as Robert Baratheon’s ghost, since he looks just like his brother when Robert was younger. Spooky how he is called a “ghost.” Catelyn realizes many follow Renly probably because he reminds them of Robert, who was a great war hero. Renly’s wearing lots of green again. That seems to be his favorite color. “...the Baratheon sigil in the colors of Highgarden.” He does the Highgarden family a great honor, especially when he married the lord of Highgarden’s daughter, Margaery. Apparently Margaery is also Robb’s age, which makes sense, I suppose. She is very pretty.
10. Now the knight from Tarth is fighting Loras Tyrell, Margaery’s brother. Most are cheering for him, of course, since he is the famous Knight of Flowers and Lord Commander of Renly’s Rainbow Guard. Surprisingly, it’s the knight from Tarth who wins. As it turns out, the knight of Tarth is actually a woman, which mortifies Catelyn, lol. They call her Brienne the Beauty, mockingly. She’s actually quite ugly, but who cares really? She can fight better than any man! Renly bestows her one wish, if it’s in his power. She asks to be put on his Rainbow Guard to serve him. Renly grants her that wish which shocks a lot of people. I think that’s pretty badass, actually. :)
11. It highly annoyed me when Cat thinks to herself, “Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?” Her thoughts are so mainstream, though, even in our own world. But it still bothers me that that’s all a woman is good for, is her beauty. So vain. That’s why I like Arya and Brienne so much, because they break the stigma.
12. Catelyn is introduced to Renly, having to correct Ser Colen when he refers to Robb as Lord of Winterfell. Renly takes this in good stride and welcomes her. Renly vows he’ll avenge Ned Stark’s death with Cersei Lannister’s head, but Catelyn knows this will not bring Ned back. All she wants is justice for what happened.
13. It is funny how Brienne sharply corrects Catelyn when she called Renly a lord by saying, “Your Grace,” when they called Robb a lord only moments ago. I’ll bet Cat did that on purpose, too!
14. It’s good to know Renly laughs it off, instead of getting angry over it. He says there will be time for “Your Graces” when all the warring is done, true. He makes it sound like they are already allies when he says Robb better leave some Lannisters for him, ha! But Renly is skilled at making people like him; that does not mean he is your friend.
15. Most of Renly’s lords bannermen are dismayed that Robb hasn’t killed Jaime Lannister yet. Don’t they realize he makes an excellent hostage? Even Randyll Tarly says no disrespect, but Robb should’ve come down himself to pay homage to the king, and not killing Jaime was an act of weakness. Yeah...my first impression of Samwell Tarly’s father is certainly an unpleasant one. I can totally see why Sam is afraid of him. He is a dick. It makes me smile when Catelyn viciously counters his argument, lol, and Renly tells Tarly to go softly, he’s overmatched. :) Hell hath no fury like a woman’s scorn!
16. House Caswell holds the castle at Bitterbridge. It is funny, the lord and Renly’s interraction together, how Renly makes fun of Robert. “What is mine is yours.”
17. Wow, Renly brought the entire castle with him in his pavilion! “Small wonder this host moves so slowly.” Indeed!
18. Lord Mathis Rowan seems genuine when he asks Cat about the health of her father, brother, and children at Lord Cawell’s feast. Poor Brienne sits at the end of the table in her knight’s clothing. She seldom talks except to answer a question and rarely lifts her head to make eye-contact with anyone. She knows she’s out of place, awe. :( This feast is huge, since Highgarden hasn’t seen war yet on its soil.
19. Renly occasionally feeds his wife and plants kisses on her cheek, but most of hte time he’s keeping Ser Loras company. That seems common for a lord/king to do. He laughs often, speaks kindly of everyone, and is not a glutton or drunk yet enjoys the feast. He seems in most ways an excellent king, but he is untested in battle. Sounds like a crazy night! It’s easy to celebrate like so when you haven’t even begun the fighting yet.
20. One part of the feast that caught my eye has a fool pretending to be Jaime Lannister, beating up a dwarf. He calls himself the kinslayer and Renly laughs and corrects him, “It’s kingslayer, fool of a fool!” Wow, so subtle I didn’t even notice this. *SPOILER FOR STORM OF SWORDS* (view spoiler) I like that Lord Rowen doesn’t laugh. He tells Catelyn they’re all so young. I respect this Lord Rowan.
21. I like this: “War will make them old,” Catelyn said, “as it did us.” I like that Lord Rowan says there’s so much merriment going on that there’s going to be many bastards bred tonight. :) He asks why she pities them and she says because it won’t last, very true. “Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.” I love it!
22. Brienne’s response to the above mentioned strikes me odd, and I wonder if she’s truly naive or actually being sardonic when she says “...all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining.” She must know that isn’t true! She herself is not a beautiful maid, and I’m sure it snows in the Reach during winter years as well. And I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want the sun to always be shining. I like the changing of the seasons, and there’s plenty of good things about winter, too! However, I can see why they might not look forward to several years nonstop of winter, especially if it is extreme, no more than I’d want years nonstop of stifling hot summers.
23. Suddenly Renly wishes to walk with Catelyn about Ser Caswell’s castle. Renly asks if Ser Barristan Selmy by any chance is with Robb, puzzling Cat. He explains what Cersei did to him. He left and is said to have sought out service to the true king -- but he’s not here, obviously. In truth he was hoping to give Ser Barristan Brienne’s spot on the Rainbow Guard. Ugh... When he never showed up he thought he might’ve gone to Riverrun instead... Um, are you forgetting your brother Stannis is also claiming to be king??? I can understand why no one thinks to include Daenerys Targaryen, who is half a world away and a girl besides. He also explains why he ran on the night Robert died and what he said to Ned. He tells Cat that Ned swore to protect Robert’s children. Note he did not say Joffrey, Myrcella, or Tommen. And Robert had a great many children. :) Renly says if he stayed he would’ve soon been targeted by Cersei, but Cat thinks if Renly stayed Ned might still be alive. Maybe! Renly says he liked Ned, but he was too stubborn and would not bend.
not enough room...
24. When they reach the top of the tower he gently tells her to see his numbers; there’s at least 80,000 men with him alone, another 10,000 at Highgarden still, and more at Storm’s End, and he seems pretty certain the Dornishmen wil join their fight. He’s basically saying without words that if Robb doesn’t join forces with him, they are no match against him. :( Finally Cat says Stannis has more right to the throne than he does. I wonder why it took her so long? Renly says while many respect his brother, they do not love him, and he would make an appalling king. Renly has a very good point when he asks what right did Robert have to be king? He won it with his warhammer. True! I can’t argue there. “Well, there is my claim, as good as Robert’s ever was.” Plus, I am sure Renly knows Cersei’s children are bastards. However, this is a big “F.U.!” to his brother Stannis! You’d think a good brother would offer his brother support, so he can be a good king; instead he’s stealing his brother’s crown! Just as Robert selfishly stole Rhaegar’s crown (and consequently started all this shit). And anyhow, the honorable thing would have been to punish the Lannisters for murdering little Aegon, the would-have-been heir after Rhaegar, and put Viserys on the throne while giving him as much good council as possible so he wouldn’t turn bat-shit crazy like his father. But Robert stole the crown for himself. I don’t think that was honorable, yet Ned supported Robert. It’s all messed up, lol. Another thing I discerned out of this is that Renly says the Baratheons are loosely related to the Targaryens, which is true. So many different perspectives on who should be king...and why does it always have to be primo-geniture, anyway? I recently read a book about the Scottish kings before England was a country, how after one king dies the crown is passed by law to another family House, but never through father to son, because they felt primo-geniture would make one House much more powerful over the rest. I like that way of thinking, sharing the crown rather than keeping it in the family. It would be fine for Robert and Renly to take the Iron Throne were it not for the fact that their own law states the crown must be passed down from father to son. 25. Renly is not asking for too much from Robb; he even will let him go on calling himself King in the North, since king is only a word, but it’s his loyalty, fealty, he requires. The problem, as I had already mentioned in my note above, is that Robb, and his men who follow him, honor primo-geniture. They will not bend the knee to a supplanter, in their eyes, despite the fact that Robert supplanted the throne 15 years ago... Kind of hypocritical there. Renly even brings up Torrhen Stark, the King who Knelt, wow, lol, that’s a little arrogant! Calling yourself Aegon the Conqueror! He was also missing a kingdom! Dorne.
26. Renly is interrupted by a herald who says his brother Stannis has unexpectedly arrived at Storm’s End, proclaiming to be king, besieging the castle that Renly is lord of.
27. I don’t know, this chapter was particularly intriguing to me, after reading Renly’s side of the story. He is such a likable guy; it is hard not to want to agree with him. I thought he made some pretty valid points, particularly about Robert taking the throne for himself, but I also see Catelyn and Robb’s POV’s as well. I just don’t see how Robert could validate taking the throne when Viserys so clearly wasn’t dead, was running from Robert, even!, and not call himself a usurper. And as I recall, Robert didn’t even want the throne; all he wanted was the girl, whom he lost, so he took the kingdom instead. If primo-geniture was so important to Ned, you’d think he’d try to talk sense into Robert, oh right, he did, and they fought over it. Perhaps Robb should seek out the Targaryen girl, if he’s so dead-set on making sure the right person sits the Iron Throne. This whole situation is so complicated...I think the moral of the story here is that there is no one right way to solve this mess. Also, I am not a political science major, lol.
Fin.
I'm sorry to hear that! Are you feeling better now?I didn't catch your point 7! It's interesting.
About your point 11, it bothers me too. I guess that's why Arya and Brienne are people favourites a lot of the times. But I understand why she thought it, the role of women was to marry and have sons, they don't even mention daughters when they talk about it. I think Sansa said to Ned in a Game of Thrones while they were talking about Joffrey, how she would give him strong sons with golden hair. But I do think that makes Arya and Brienne so awesome, the gap between them and the rest of the people who believe all women are good for is having sons is huge, and you can really tell.
2-She was travelling to meet Renly,and Shadd and Manderly are one of Robb's 20 best he sent with her, plus some highlords. They weren't too much to be a threat, and not that few to be easy to attack, so they had no problem.
3-Robb planned to march, his lords were getting restless and so was he I think. He told his mother he wanted peace as well, not what Cleos said. He sent 4 ravens to the Eyrie, he won't get a reply from Lysa. I now realise how happy I am she hasn't show up so far. Robb won't march on Harrenhal, which was what Catelyn thought.
4-She didn't want to go at first, she was worried her father would die while she was gone, so Robb told her he would send the Greatjon, who they both know will not do.
5-I forgot she wrote a letter to Bran and Rickon, telling them she hasn't forgot them, but Robb needs her more.
6-Renly's outlanders found them, and told them they were in dangerous lands. They took them to Renly, and I have to say Ser Colen was nice. Both parties have their kings, and I think they respect that.
7-She saw thousands of campfires, Renly has a lot of men. I think he has more men than any of the other kings. Renly had near all the people of the south.
8-There was a melee going on, and she went alone to see Renly while the men waited. "This is madness, Catelyn thought. Real enemies on every side and half the realm in flames, and Renly sits here playing at war like a boy with his first wooden sword." It's true though, I would be mad too.
9-She recognized some south lords who had been at Riverrun, like Oakheart and Tarly. From what it's told in this chapter, Lord Tarly seems like an ass.
10- Catelyn thought Renly was Robert come again. He looked like Robert did when he was young. She knew his marriage with Margeary Tyrell was what held the south together.
11-She could tell Loras Tyrell was the favourite knight. He was called the Knight of flowers, and had a rainbow cloak. Hard not to look at him with all the colors and stuff. He was fighting against a knight from Tarth, and of course she thought of a man. Loras yielded, and she could tell he was comely, even if he was all beat up. He looked two years older than Robb.
12-She was told about Brienne the Beauty, and was completely horrified about a woman fighting. She could tell they called her beauty mocking her. "Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?" Looks are everything for most woman in this world, and Catelyn felt pity for her. Brienne asked to be part of Renly's rainbow guard, and Catelyn could tell her nose had been broken more than once. And she was taller than Renly, who was tall himself!
13-I forgot how much I loved Renly, how lovable he is. He recieved Catelyn pretty well to say the least, and has this air of not caring too much about thins in my opinion. I can definitely can see why he has so many followers.
14-But Brienne wasn't so recieving, she told Catelyn to call Renly king, not lord and kneel, and Catelyn's comeback was gold.
15-Renly asked her when Robb planned to march on Harrenhal, but she didn't tell him, which was good I think. She doesn't know if she can trust him. When she told them Jaime Lannister was still alive, a lot lost their minds. He's not loved at all. But Renly didn't seem to mind too much.
16-Renly said she would sleep in his own pavilion, which was very luxurious. She then went to the feast, and Brienne was dressed as a knight, and was aware of the looks. I think she's really sad, and you can tell. There was lots of food of course. It seems Renly's host is in better condition than any of the others.
17-Renly talked with his wife a lot, but more with her brother. I loved this: "He laughed often, and well, and spoke amiably to highborn lords and lowly serving wenches alike." He is good to everyone it seems.
18-She was talking with Lord Rowan, and he said they were all so young, and war was just a game to them. She thought so, as well as war will make them old, as it did to them. They haven't fought them, they don't know what is like.
19-It was interesting Brienne said winter will never come to them, and if they die song would be made, and it was always summer in the songs. Catelyn thought winter came for her when Ned died. SO sad!
20-Renly asked Catelyn if she wanted to take a walk, and Brienne said she should go, Renly told her no, he'd be safe, and Catelyn could tell she was really hurt.
21-Renly asked her if Ser Barristan was with Robb, she didn't even know he wasn't part of the Kingsguard anymore. Which I found surprising, but then I thought maybe the Lannisters didn't want the whole realm to know. He was saving a spot for him, but gave it to Brienne.
22-He showed Catelyn all the people he had, around 90000 which is crazy! And he thinks Dorne would join him as well, like the Lannisters thought. He even thinks Stannis will, and when Catelyn said he was another king, Renly told her he was never loved, and would not be a good king. When talking about Stannis's right to the throne, Renly said Robert had no claim at all, he took the throne with his warhammer. So he coult take it as well.
23-Renly told her Robb should bent the knee and join him, can call himself king and rule Winterfell, as long as he knows Renly rules the realm. He wants loyalty, titles are just words.
24-The ending of this chapter was super unexpected, and the first time I read it I was shocked. King Stannis is at Renly's gate!