A Little Life, Part III, and Part IV (October 2015)

[Zulfiya]

1. We learn more about J.B. in part III. What is his role in the novel so far? Do you find his presence in the novel significant? Is J.B. with his struggles and personal battles a foil for Jude?

2. The question of forgiveness is a big one in this novel. Do you think Jude should forgive J.B.? Do you think he can "grant" forgiveness. Is Jude capable of being charitable and of sincerely forgiving?

3. The scope of tragic events that Jude experienced, and so far, we only know half the truth, is truly overwhelming. Does the novel remind you of any Greek tragedy where fate plays the superior role of the ultimate controller where the amount of tears and heartache is truly UNBELIEVABLE? Are Jude's suffering logically explainable? To wit, is it possible to imagin that one person can suffer so much?

3. Yet again, the question of gender. Do you think the novel would be have been more suitable to win the Book 2015 award if there had been more women,

[Caroline]

Great questions, Zulfiya.

I think out of all the characters, I struggled the most with J.B. I initially found him entertaining but by the end his presence didn't seem as valuable as Maclolm's or Willem's.

Having said that, one piece of this book that pushed me from loving it to finding it frustrating was the forgiveness piece. What J.B. did was awful, and it would make sense that it would truly upset Jude (and Willem). However, it was done while J.B. was really struggling with his addiction and was perhaps not acting like himself (I'm specifically thinking of J.B. mocking Jude, not of hanging paintings without permission). What made me most upset is how long it took Willem and Jude to forgive J.B., particularly Willem. Just as Jude needed help, so did J.B. (I'm forgetting now what steps they may have taken to try to help J.B.). I admit that this is another area where it's easier to reach conclusions as an outsider ("Well of course they should have forgiven J.B. sooner!") than to acknowledge that forgiveness doesn't always come so easily. J.B. sort of forced Jude to look at himself (both through the mocking imitation and paintings) through someone else's eyes, which was something Jude wasn't ready or willing to do.

Perhaps one good thing that came out of this though is a strengthening of Jude and Willem's relationship - I found their friendship to be one of the most beautiful pieces of the book.

It is very hard for me to wrap my head around how much Jude suffers in this book. Yet, as has been discussed in the General Discussion thread, truth is often stranger than fiction. Just because it's hard for me to think it possible doesn't mean it's not.

[Lily]

Caroline wrote: "...It is very hard for me to wrap my head around how much Jude suffers in this book. Yet, as has been discussed in the General Discussion thread, truth is often stranger than fiction. Just because it's hard for me to think it possible doesn't mean it's not..."

I have been trying to remember that I am reading a work of fiction, not a journalist investigation. That didn't mean but what situations as overwhelming as those of Jude don't exist -- I think just the daily newspapers suggest they do, although there the story often disappears before we "see all." But it did lead me to ask a) what were the sources/process that led Yanagihara to create these particular characters and b) how "realistic" do both the elements and the configurations of these character "feel."

For some reason, so far I have felt more like an observer of Jude, rather than that he is a character for whom I have empathy as I might for a "real" person. Perhaps that is because of the mystery around getting to know him, but more likely it comes from a sense of a calculated distance from this book and its story. That may be as much because of the hype as because of the writing. Perhaps it is a question of "do I trust the author" and wholeheartedly or only conditionally and partially.

[LindaJ^]

Zulfiya wrote: "3. Yet again, the question of gender. Do you think the novel would be have been more suitable to win the Book 2015 award if there had been more women"

I doubt the few women characters had anything to do with it not winning the Man Booker. Let's see if it wins the National Book Award! Just making both of those awards' short lists is pretty impressive. I have not seen anything that would indicate that the lack of major women characters played a role in connection with the Man Booker.

[Lily]

Linda wrote: "I doubt the few women characters had anything to do with it not winning the Man Booker. Let's see if it wins the National Book Award!..."

I agree. In fact, a female author writing interesting male characters is probably a factor in its favor in the literary awards world. As Linda says, being on the short list for both MB & NBA is quite an accomplishment. (When I saw Zulfiya's question, I found myself wondering how many female characters are in this year's winner. I haven't read it or looked at reviews myself: A Brief History of Seven Killings by Marlon James.)

[LindaJ^]

Zulfiya wrote: "2. The question of forgiveness is a big one in this novel. Do you think Jude should forgive J.B.? Do you think he can "grant" forgiveness. Is Jude capable of being charitable and of sincerely forgiving?"

I not sure that I agree that forgiveness is a big question in this novel. I think Jude finally was able to live with what J.B. did that had Jude and Wilhelm severing their ties with him and I believe J.B. was sincerely sorry that he said what he had. But I'm not sure forgiveness was something that one should expect from Jude. I think forgiveness is extraordinarily hard for anyone and wonder if what Jude experienced could ever be forgiven. But then, I'm not sure that Jude, in connection with the abuse of his early years, believed that anyone needed forgiveness other than himself. He blamed himself for what happened to him and thought he was responsible.

[Lily]

Linda wrote: "...wonder if what Jude experienced could ever be forgiven...."

You bring to mind those wonderful enigmatic words of Derrida: "...forgiveness forgives only the unforgivable..."

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/ce/s6403/... See p32 in particular, but needs context.

[Zulfiya]

Linda wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "2. The question of forgiveness is a big one in this novel. Do you think Jude should forgive J.B.? Do you think he can "grant" forgiveness. Is Jude capable of being charitable and of..."

When I was formulating the question, I was actually thinking not only about J.B. and Jude, but mostly about Jude and his [ast. he could not forgive himself for his past. he somehow blamed himself for his past; he gnawed him, devoured him, ate him up inside.

I know it might sound as if I was asking about J.B., and namely J.B. and his behavior spurs me to ask this question, but when I started thinking about it, it seemed to me that forgiveness is mostly about Jude, not about J.B. But again, it is just me, and one question led to another, and here I am thinking about when Jude finally is going to forgive himself when there is nothing to forgive for.

[Lily]

Zulfiya wrote: "...here I am thinking about when Jude finally is going to forgive himself when there is nothing to forgive for...."

Sometimes sadly, sometimes tragically, so often among the hardest kind....

[Zulfiya]

So true ...

[Lily]

Zulfiya wrote: "So true ..."

Have you been able to return to reading the novel?

Somehow, I feel as if I have to put on an emergency room trauma center demeanor to keep going -- some sort of protective emotional barrier.

But why does the subject of "cutting" seem to come up frequently recently? (I haven't gone looking for background material.)

PS -- but I just started here: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/fe... and worked my way quickly through the five entries. Also, as part of my on-going training for a volunteer help program, within the past couple of weeks I had heard a speaker from a local psychiatric support center refer to some of his work with teenagers in this area.

I don't want to know about this stuff. It smacks of the self-flagellation of extreme religious sects and of slave/criminal punishments that long ago should have disappeared. But, its beginning to look, like so much about close-in abuse in the world about us, this may be another place towards which to open one's eyes.

[Lily]

Lisa wrote: "...."

Lisa -- your entry (thanks for it) seems to have appeared three times. Know that you can use the delete feature in the lower right corner to remove a couple of them if you wish.

[Maureen]

Zulfiya wrote: "1. We learn more about J.B. in part III. What is his role in the novel so far? Do you find his presence in the novel significant? Is J.B. with his struggles and personal battles a foil for Jude?

..."

I am intrigued by Zulfiya's question of seeing this novel as a type of Greek tragedy. Yes, the suffering is extreme, and until I finish I cannot determine if it has the main elements of tragedy. However, I did suffer as I read Sections III and IV. I had to put the book down mid-chapter a number of times. I do feel I understand and find more credible now Harold's care for Jude and the desire to adopt him. He responds to Jude's tragedies as an exemplary father.

Caroline @2 mentioned being struck by the friendship between Wilhem and Jude. Both are exceptional friends as they care about one another's feelings and as they intuit each other's needs. For Wilhelm to put his job/career on hold so he could spend the extended time carrying for Jude, well if you have a friend like that, don't ever let him/her go!

Honestly, even though I understand J.B's problems, I really find myself not liking him. To me he is a supporting character in his role in the narrative.

As to the women's question, quite frankly I tend to think this is a non- issue.

However, thanks to Zulfiya's question, I will have the idea of classic tragedy in my mind as I continue reading.