SPOILER-The Very Bad Thing in this book

[Sarah]

Aw thanks victoria! Believe me I was so sad and angry at him myself! Hah but I did have some knowledge of it ahead of time so maybe was a bit more prepared..? But it's an old flame pure and simple and he made a mistake. I actually think it ends up bringing him and D closer in a weird way. This needed to be dealt with, however wrong he might have been, so they all can move on. And I loved that he said he was looking for DEMELZA in her and it just wasn't there. So to me, if this thing never happened, maybe he never would have realized that fully..

[Sarah]

Ok my phone cuts me off so I can't see what I'm writing lol anyway my point is just that yes it sucks it had to happen bc yes Ross should have realized all that he had with D.. But it didn't mean he ever stopped loving her. But sometimes a event like this has to happen to open ones eyes to all that you have and almost lost, which is what he realized at the end when D almost leaves him.

[Victoria]

SARAH...I believe that you do fully understand what Winston Graham was writing about Ross. Additionally, NEVER does E say the rape word ever. She certainly did have the opportunity to say so when they met together in the church yard. What has amused me from the first time I read THE FOUR SWANS, during the conversation with E is that Ross's math is so bad! He never seemed to get the "premature" angle and that V just might be his.

[Sarah]

Thanks! And I agree, the word was never used and if E was sooo angry about it you would think she wouldn't hesitate to say that to him. But in any case, he held her on a pedestal for so long, if this is what it took for him to bring her off of it and realize she is many things but mainly NOT demelza, then I'm fine with it. Painful to read and will be painful to watch, but I have faith they'll handle it well. The show won't make Ross a rapist any more than they will make E out to be cunning brat she can be in the books! What did she think would happen when she wrote the letter? He would welcome George to the fam with open arms? Please! So I hope the show doesn't make her look like some angel who didn't know what she was doing in giving Ross all these mixed signals

[Victoria]

SARAH - So HAPPY that you joined this group. I seem to have been Ross's only champion for the past two months. Not that what he did was exemplary or well thought out but to scream rape when WG never used the word is not correct. I am sure that Debbie Horsfield will create a thoughtful script and the filming will be excellent. I did read earlier this year that DH was trying very hard to make E into a warmer personality in the series. Such as going to see D. after Julia was born and visiting Nampara when D was still so sick. None of those scenes were in the book and E DOES come through as you wrote "a cunning brat!" From the web sites, it seems as if the US will not see Series Two until December 2016 or even January 2017....

[Sarah]

Thank you! I'm glad to be here! I was hoping my view wouldn't be too unpopular! I agree with you too, I don't condone what he did, rape or not. I would love it if he never saw E again lol, but again I have to compare to the vicar situation.. Is that in any way like Ross? I believe if WG meant for us to think it was undoubtably rape, he would have made it more clear cut like the situation with morwenna. And like I said, I was NOT happy with Ross, it STILL hurts but he's human and he learned from this.

[Sarah]

As for making E more likable, I noticed that too with the added scenes.. But even that scene during D's illness, both me and my folks when they saw it thought she was more or less also doing it bc it's what D did first, E always wants to look good in Ross's eyes. Not that it makes the E show version evil, but there are subtle ulterior motives there I believe. She KNOWS Ross holds her on a pedestal and wants to stay there. Her main concern after money IMO. And you could tell after Ross's "love of my life" line, her expression said it all- she never thought anyone would take her place in the "true love" department. I'm sure she knew he loved her, but not like that :)

[Tanya, Moderator/Hostess]

Have you seen the Tea Consent? As a 21st woman, I heartily endorse this view of consent and want all young men to watch it and heed it. But then I start thinking of the gray areas. If I was asleep and my husband came home late "feeling amorous" and started to put the moves on me--if I protested being awoken, but then "went along" with the act, I wouldn't feel raped. I still believe in the tea analogy of consent, but I think in the end it's rape if the other part feels violated. What we don't get at the end of the chapter is what Elizabeth is really feeling. We see her actions at the end, we see Ross carrying her toward the bed. We are more in Ross' head at this point. As Sarah and Victoria have pointed out, we need to know how Elizabeth felt about the events and our only clues are behaviors and conversations she has in later books. Did Ross violate the Tea Consent? Absolutely. Did he rape Elizabeth? Only Elizabeth can really answer that. If these were real people and Elizabeth told me she was raped and the details were as in the book, I'd say yes it was rape.

Winston Graham provides more commentary about rape through Valentine in the Bella book as well as the conversations Jeremy has with Ross and Demelza in The Twisted Sword. Together with the Morwenna/Osborne story line, I'm inclined to believe that WG understood the differences in the time period in which he was writing and the time period of his story. I do not think he wanted to convey a Ross-Elizabeth rape.

[Sarah]

Exactly. And if I may add something from book 5 with morwenna and ossie.. (Spoiler?) he specifically states at the end of the one chapter: and then he raped her. Very clear even though we didn't SEE much there either. But you're right, it comes down to how E felt.. But I'm just going by later hints that it wasn't as clear cut

[Sarah]

And I really do think that she seemed more upset that he just never came back to explain and apologize. He "abandoned" her without reason. Well that reason was explained to her in bk 6 and it softened her toward him. So if it was so clearly only rape, would she ever get past it like she began to then?

[Victoria]

SARAH yes a great supposition, E would not have simply felt enmity towards Ross, she would not have spoken to him at all, let alone, asked him about saving her marriage and actually listened to him.

[Sarah]

My thoughts exactly!

[Sarah]

And also..(spoiler just in case) If it were rape and upset her so badly, wouldn't she have told George and begged for his help when she was ready and when he was asking questions? He would have gladly gone after Ross...

[Victoria]

SARAH! you are marvelous! George would have LOVED that! to be the hero for his "trophy wife" and I don't know if there was a punishment for rape in those days??? but definitely Ross would have been scorned, possibly even by his tenants and mine workers AND would never have become an MP!!

[Sarah]

Haha thanks! I only thought of it once you mentioned the part where she listens to Ross about her marriage to George. I won't say too much bc it's not in this book, but the whole thing could have gone very differently even before that convo- if she was that mad, talk to your husband! He would be upset about valentine but he DOES love E and though he might treat him different, I don't think he would have the boy killed or anything. And they could always have more kids/another son.
But yeah I def think he could have easily had Ross punished or killed somehow.

[Sarah]

Oops.. To clarify I meant the events where she and George had an argument could have gone very differently --she could have begged his help in that instance

[Ann, Owner (Absent)]

Okay, I appreciate everyone has their own views and everyone is entitled to those views. I will not be berated for my views, regardless of how upsetting and shattering they are to your personal views of the books.

I haven't once mocked anyone here for their views. I have slated a character and how he responded to the situation.

My opinion of the situation, however, does not change. (I am still on book 4 and attitudes of certain people here are driving me from the books I was so dearly clinging to for a little bit of grit and love whilst in my own dark times.)

[Sarah]

Hey Ann :) I definitely agree everyone is entitled to their own view of it and I will certainly respect yours :) my thing is just that however it may seem in book 4, things do get explained a bit more in other books so I encourage reading on. If it doesn't change anyone's view, it's all good too!

[Tanya, Moderator/Hostess]

As moderator, I'm taking the liberty of having the last word on this thread and then closing it to further discussion. (I'm not preventing further, related discussion topics to be added.)
I think we can all agree that:
1) Elizabeth sent Ross a letter and probably had an inkling that it would cause a reaction. Now, she may have just done it as a courtesy so he would hear it from her first, but she did it.
2) Ross was in a foul mood when he showed up at the house. He then broke in and surprised Elizabeth--and not in a good way.
3) They argued.
4) They had sex.
5) Ross' behavior was not "gentlemanly."
6) Some of us interpret the events as rape and some do not. Either opinion is justified and acceptable. Any emotional response to any of the events in the book is valid.
7) It is okay for us to disagree with an interpretation and try to respectfully argue our own points of view.